AmadMozart Posted September 14, 2001 Share Posted September 14, 2001 As I have sifted through the various threads over the past few days, I have often been tempted to react - to join the fray - to fight the good fight in support of my own views and beliefs regarding the events of our world over the past 72 hours; how did it happen? who is to blame? who should be punished and how? why does the world hate America? and many other thoughts expressed here and elsewhere. I keep coming back to "freedom" as the basic concept of America that endures - the best and brightest living and working symbol of freedom the world has ever known, despite her many flaws. America has endured the terrible light of her own self-scrutiny on more than one occasion - and America shall endure the terrible light of self-scrutiny that is certain to come officially at some later point. The unofficial self-scutiny has already begun at watercoolers, in chatrooms, and on message boards such as this one. But amidst all of this self scrutiny, rancor and even disgust, would any one claim that these sentiments from Americans about America mean that we hate ourselves? And if not, then why do we think the rest of the world incapable of severe criticism without hatred? As I watched CNN last night I was overwhelmed by the world's reaction - and for the first time the cold numbness of this apocalypse was penetrated and I found myself in tears. I watched as citizens of other nations gathered, many holding American flags and banners and signs of support, to pray and show solidarity - it moved me completely. I watched as they played the national anthem in London and watched their citizens cry - not only for us...for many of their citizens were at the WTC also. I watched children in Russia waving our flag and holding large banners in both Russian and English, proclaiming their unity with us during this moment. And I knew in my heart - as I have surely known all along - the world does not hate us - we are not alone. I have travelled the world repeatedly over the past ten years - and in that time have been no stranger to the many things the rest of the world does not like about America or Americans. But to those of you who ask "why do people hate America" - I suggest that your question is tantamount to suggesting that only Americans are able to criticize America without hating her - and it is a condescending question at that. Oh, certainly there are individuals that actually do "hate" America, but from many of the posts I have read, one has the sense that there are those of you that believe that America is well and roundly hated across the globe. I suggest that you are very wrong. This blow against America was a blow against the freedom for which America has so steadfastly stood - in good and in bad times - and the world has felt it - and they have responded. Gone and forgotten, at least for now, are the differences which only yesterday were causing so much heated disagreement - they will return in due course, naturally, but the rest of the world has had the good sense not to say "I told you so" at least for now. I think I'll do the same. ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 From a US citizen, resident in London - three points. Global upset is huge, the attack represents for many many countries including Britain the biggest ever loss of it's nationals lives in a terrorist attack. The UK & Spain are used to bomb campaigns in it's capital cities that started in the 70's and is still very much underway from ETA and the IRA. The UK expects it's death toll from the WTC to be 500+. Ireland has longstanding links with America and NYC in particular and expects it's losses to be huge. American forigne policy, NOT IT'S POPULATION (big diference) has long been regarded as dangerous due to it's unpopularity around the globe. There is such a lack of forigne news reporting in the US (which has so much domestic news) people living there have trouble getting a grip on whats going on outside it. This blow against America was able to happen due to an often complained about, insane disregard for security at US airports and a total failure by both US and worldwide security agencies. Jules This message has been edited by Julian standen on 09-14-2001 at 09:34 PM Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadMozart Posted September 15, 2001 Author Share Posted September 15, 2001 Julian, I don't disagree that certain US foreign policy has been, is, or will be unpopular across the globe. What I am saying is that the criticism of foreign nations regarding US policy does not constitute hatred of America - anymore than our own internal criticism (which is healthy, and huge compared to many other nations' self scrutiny or lack thereof) constitues self-hatred. And I think we should also remember that there are many parts of US foreign policy that have been, are, and will continue to benefit and aid other parts of the world - and for those we are seldom thanked let alone praised. I do not think Western Europe (especially) forgets that it was the presence of America during the cold war, and her willingness to spend massive amounts of her internal resources on preparedness, that kept the Soviet Bloc behind the iron curtain until that curtain finally fell. Of course our foreign policy has often been less than perfect - as has been the foreign policy of any nation state you care to name. My point is to those who suggest that thousands of innocent Americans have paid the price of their countires misguided foreign policy - how ridiculous - the responsibility for this tragedy lies squarely at the hands of those who perpetrated it and those who supported them. To suggest otherwise is equivalent to saying to the people of Afghanistan that since your leaders' policy has been to support Bin Laden you are guilty of the crimes of Bin Laden and his associates. Nonsense. Cheers, Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 Mark, I think you are viewing the above through rose tinted glasses. You seem determined to 'dress it up' or put a sunny hat on it all. I would say less blind belief and more pick up a good newspaper and try get a handle on the situation, there is history to bone up on. The terrorists, the population from the countries that harbor them, their situation, their views and history are all key to whats to happen next. Anyhow I plan to learn more. I already love America thats a 'done deal'. Lets look beyond it's borders into places we have little understanding of and try to see how they 'tic'. Jules Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadMozart Posted September 15, 2001 Author Share Posted September 15, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by Julian standen: [b]Mark, I think you are viewing the above through rose tinted glasses. You seem determined to 'dress it up' or put a sunny hat on it all. I would say less blind belief and more pick up a good newspaper and try get a handle on the situation, there is history to bone up on. The terrorists, the population from the countries that harbor them, their situation, their views and history are all key to whats to happen next. Anyhow I plan to learn more. I already love America thats a 'done deal'. Lets look beyond it's borders into places we have little understanding of and try to see how they 'tic'. Jules[/b][/quote] Jules, Do you really believe that someone offering a counter view point to your own or others is a blind believer, doesn't read enough good newspapers, or doesn't understand history? Condescending to me might be a good debating tactic (in fact it is [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ), but does nothing to further understanding. If all you have gotten from my post was "I love America", then I am sorry I was so poor at communicating my thoughts. My essential points have been that I do not accept that America is responsible for this tragedy because of our role in the Middle East - or that we have gotten our just desserts for previous foreign policy actions - or that the world at large "hates" America because of our past and present policies. Nation states all upset one another from time to time to relative degrees. Sometimes that ends in war - mostly, those differences are resolved through diplomacy. What was done at the WTC was neither - it was cold blooded murder, and it cannot be rationalized by pointing the finger of blame upon ourselves. If I do a little flag waving on my way to making those points, so be it - I am a flag waver - but let's not confuse that with blindness or ignorance. Cheers, Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Edited snippage: "America is responsible for this tragedy because of our role in the Middle East. the world at large "hates" America because of our past and present policies." You actualy wrote down what you dont want to hear! Why dont you get a T shirt made up with "I don't want to hear it" written on it? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] I belive you to be in total denial. Anyhow, watch TV, all the above will be reported on in the coming weeks as 'who the fuck are the Afgans' type background reports emerge for Americans hungry for info, I suggest you have some earplugs at the ready. Jules This message has been edited by Julian standen on 09-15-2001 at 09:01 PM Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadMozart Posted September 16, 2001 Author Share Posted September 16, 2001 Is it typical of you, Jules, to resort to ad hominen attacks, when you dislike what someone says or believes? Is it worthy of you? Grow up. Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Well you started a thread with your post, there arent any 'statement only' functions on this forum. I will have to go look up that word and get back to ya. Jules But in the meantime, I am gonna try get more optomistic and positive for my country. I am angry about the deaths, make no mistake. This message has been edited by Julian standen on 09-16-2001 at 12:26 AM Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadMozart Posted September 16, 2001 Author Share Posted September 16, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by Julian standen: [b]Well you started a thread with your post, there arent any 'statement only' functions on this forum. I will have to go look up that word and get back to ya. Jules [/b][/quote] Sure I started the thread, and sure that means people can disagree all they want with what I post. That's part of it. I dislike the personal nature of your responses which don't deal with any of the substance of the post, rather, seem more inclined concentrate on what you believe is my ignorance. So be that also, I had just thought more of you than that. Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Well, Julian, As a US citizen who grew up in Europe, and does know what a real newspaper and news reporting is all about, I agree with you. It's funny, when I was living in Holland, I always thought that America was THE place to be. Untill I moved to San Francisco for 5 years. I will say the US government has done a mighty fine job into making their citizens believe that it is the greatest country in the world. Good PR on their part. But in reality, I have never worked so hard for so little while living in the US. It's still a complete sin that not everybody there can afford to see a doctor. The schooling is pretty much pathetic. The only way to get a real education, is private schools. Americans need to be more critical of their own government and not accept everything that is layed out to them on TV. And as you said, try and buy a real newspaper once in awhile. IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro Jules Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Looked this up hominine adj : characteristic of humankind I give up! I am about as 'vented' as I can be after these tragic events. I need to put some Springsteen on or Steve Earl and get back to my roots and pick up my spirits. Peace Mark Peace everyone [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Jules Jules Producer Julian Standen London, UK, Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.