Roland V Drums and other Electronic Drums

[Platy]

^^i just read this... lol talk about deja vu^^

 

i replied to this in the pearl forum

[zele]

Still favor the Fat Kat (21 pad).....about $600 --at least for the two we purchased.... easiest to transport/store...amazing response...we use a Kurzweil rack with 10 outputs which allows great seperation at the board. Been drumming since 1962--will never return to an accoustic set....

 

see pic at website

[Super 8]

Yeah, the FatKat was pretty cool. I was sorry to see Kat go under. They really made some well designed products. I know Alternate Mode is now basically Kat. But I don't think they are really doing anything new with the pads. Still it's cool to see updates to the DrumKat OS and stuff.

 

I bought an OctapadII when they came out around 87-88. I still have it, but it's seen better days.

I used to play out with the Simmons Hex pads. Talk about a hard surface!!! After my first gig, my hands were completely covered with blisters. It was discusting. And that was just Friday! I still had a Saturday gig to play! Ouch! But after that, I never had a problem.

 

These days, I'm all about my Zendrum. No sticks required. Total touch sensitivity. Pretty basic in the MIDI department, but it gets the job done well enough.

[Allan Speers]

Pricey, I agrre that V-drums aren't perfect, but I must also question most of your statements:

 

1. "The pad has a hot spot, because it only uses 1 sensor. Moving the drumstick one inch causes a huge change in volume."

 

Well, not on mine. Of course, my set is fairly new. perhaps a lot of heavy pounding causes them to change. I hope not, but we'll see....

 

2 & 3: "The samples only have 3 or 4 velocity layers, and the transition is not smooth." "The difference between loud and soft is exaggerated. "

 

-true about the layers (though this doesn't bother me) false about the smoothness and velocity curve. You DEFINITELY had them set wrong, or they had been abused.

 

 

4. "The "brain" has no randomization, stacking, or alternation features."

 

-Huh? I'm assuming that you're talking about when using the brain as a midi-converter, with Gigastudio. If so, then you are correct, and I have begged Roland to incorporate these features in the next release. This is indeed an excellent point. I'd also like to see a firewire or m-lan connection in addition to midi, for faster external triggering. I'd also like to see an alternaye hats-mode, to better trigger external hats samples (currently VERY hard to do.)

 

HOWEVER, the V-drums were never designed specifically to trigger external samples, that was almost an after-thought. Within the kit itself, and especially with the expanded TD-10, there is incredible randomization and subtlety. timbre changes as you change stick position, shell resonance changes (smoothly) with velocity changes, etc)

 

5a."Out of 1000 samples, only a few are useable."

- You're being a little harsh. While there are a ton of useless sounds (they are not technically samples) there are also a ton of great ones. I am, however, only speaking of the expanded TD-10, and one must also tweak quite a bit. Most of the factory set-ups use WAY too much of the awful, built-in reverb.

 

5b: "The so-called "physical modeling" is just a set of EQ curves applied to samples."

 

-That's simply incorrect. Completely.

 

"Its simply not worth $2,000+" Hmmm. It sounds like you were using one of the earlier models, (and possibly an abused set at that) since the current top-line st has been selling for around $4600. If you're complaining about a 4-5 year old system, then you should say so. In such a case, your points may well be valid, I don't know, but they don't apply to the current kit with the expanded TD-10 brain.

[Allan Speers]

Johhny B,

 

To anser your original question: Overall, I do feel that the V-drums are the best current alternative. It's true that D-drums sound a little more punchy, though If you learn to tweak the V, and you get the expanded TD-10, there is plenty to work with. I typically use the V kick and toms, with real snare and cymbals. I will also sometimes use the V-snare when one of my real snares doesn't fit the tune. last, I use a few pole pads and/or the V-cymbals mixed-in with real cymbals, for odd-ball sounds, accents, percussion, chinas, alternate rides, etc. My clients and session drummers have been 100% thrilled with what we're getting.

 

When I got my V-kit, I also bought a set of Hart pads, as they have a very good reputation. I had a number of great drummers play both sets of pads into the V-brain. all said the same thing: the Hart pads felt a little more like real drums, but the roland pads were actually easier to play (!) and additionally the roland pads triggered the V-brain better. -so I sold the Harts. YMMV.

 

The most compelling reason why i went with the Roland was the positional cross-fading. Evidently, Pricey's kit didn't have this impoertant and relatively new feature. It makes all the difference in the world on the snare, and when doing flams/ rolls on the toms. Compared to the D-drums, etc, it was no contest for me. Also, I think the weakest V-sounds are the cymbals (still plenty good, though.) There are a few (a FEW) killer kicks and toms, and since that's my main concern I am thrilled with my V set-up.

 

One thing to be aware of: If you plan on using real cymbals, there is a huge problem with the toms false-triggering from sympathetic vibration. You will have to either use floor stands for the cymbals, or (like me) rig a bunch of thin rubber into all clamps and fill the stand tubes with expanding-foam. Even then. it's a real trick.

[techristian]

I have a good question for all of you. Is any company making a set of RESPONSIVE MESH HEAD drums that feel like the Roland Vdrums for less money ??

 

Dan

http://teachmedrums.com

[zele]

The samples are great in the Kurzweil--no need for adding "real" accoustic cymbals, etc....after the basic track is laid down with the FatKat >>>>--I always fill-in extra samples with the keyboard----maybe tightening up fast open/close hats--cressendo of cymbals, usually two tracks of overlapping tracks, etc. >>> just percussion placed where needed.

[Allan Speers]

dan,

 

The Hart pads are a serious alternative:

 

http://www.hartdynamics.com/home/index.html

 

-but read my post, above. I much prefer the LOOK of the Hart's, and they are quite a bit cheaper, and you can buy just what you need, and they have incrementally-sized toms.... lots of good points.

 

however, ALL drummers decided that the Roland pads worked better with the TD10 brain, and I did tweak the Hart's response.

 

Also realize that you will probably want to use some kind of brain (NOT a midi-triggered module!) to get "instantaneous" response. If you rely on triggered samples from ANY sampler (hardware or software) and try to record a rhythm section, the groove is going to suffer. -at least until midi gets replaced by something faster. I believe that the roland brain is the only one currently available that does positional cross-fading, though I wouldn't be surprised to see an offering from Hart in the near future.

[Injun Killer]

Originally posted by Super 8:

[QB]I think your expectations are unrealistic. The reason Vdrums or any E drum doesn't sound like acoustic drums is because (suprise) they aren't acoustics... To unleash the sound of E's, you MUST alter your approach.

You have a point--I should look at e-drums on their own terms, not as ersatz acoustic drums. They are useful for sounds that you CAN'T get with an acoustic set, like ethnic percussion, synth drums, or weird junkyard samples.

 

Still, the Roland drums have lot of engineering flaws. I've tried out several models including the newer ones, and they all have the same flaws. The design has not significantly changed in 5 years. They could be a lot better than they are. Especially for $4600?!?

 

I'm suprised that no one else has noticed the "hot spot." This has been a problem for me on all models of V-drums. If your stick hits dead-center, it gets much louder. As far as the velocity curve, it's useable, but it doesn't have the range or the subtle gradations of an acoustic drum. You don't have the kind of control that you get with an acoustic drum. There is no finesse. Maybe you have to be a professional drummer and play real drums every day to appreciate the difference.

 

As far as the samples, I can get a better sound with a cheap drumset, a tiny drum booth, and three mics. However, that is only true if you have a good drummer and a good AE. For a beginning AE, e-drums might be easier to work with.

[Super 8]

Dan (TeCh)

Hart, Pintech, are some of the more reputable brands making the mesh pads.

 

I can agree with Pricey on one point, and that's the price of the Roland pads. They are definitely priced like an accessory. There is nothing about any of those pads that is worth three hundred bucks -no way! The mesh idea is a great one. But apart from that, they are still just using a cheap transducer pickup to send the signal. It's certainly not rocket science.

 

Regarding this issue of velocity layers:

I think there may be some confusion here. There are 128 velocity points. This is standard for any touch sensitive MIDI instrument. The 3 or 4 "layers" is likely referring to crossfades from one sound to another, and/or layering sounds on top of each other. For example, the OctapadII had 3 velocity layers that you could program for a single pad.

 

Velocity Curve works with the sensitivity setting of the pad to determine how quickly it gets from velocity number 1 to 128.

 

Regarding MIDI's latency in transmitting from pad to brain. I assure you, MIDI is plenty fast to handle this. The delay is only a few milliseconds, and not detectable. If you are having difficulty with maintaining the 'groove', you need to check somewhere else for the problem because it's not the MIDI baud-rate.

 

Also regarding Physical Modeling.

 

I think in this instance it refers to algorithms which effect the sample based on the velocity.

My understanding is that Physically modelling a drum is far more complex than nearly any other instrument, and that samples just plain work better. Now modeling a Moog or an Oberheim is another story. But there are WAY fewer variables to be considered.

[zele]

Playing live and in the studio with the $600 FatKat-- no hot spots -- sensitivity/ parameters work perfectly with the 21 pads...as well as the kick trigger and hi-hat.

[Allan Speers]

quote: "Regarding MIDI's latency in transmitting from pad to brain. I assure you, MIDI is plenty fast to handle this. The delay is only a few milliseconds"

 

-That's because, internally, the brain DOESN"T USE MIDI. -Which is why i recommend using a brain.

 

There is no midi-based device currently in existance that can do less than 3 ms (and that's tough to get) with almost 1 ms extra for any simultaneous note. I've seen as much as 12 ms through some MOTU interfaces.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

-That's because, internally, the brain DOESN"T USE MIDI.

Hmmmm.... I wonder about that. I don't know if that's true.

 

Still, I used to do pad to MIDI conversion through my PM16 into my R8m and never had any issues with latency. I ran out of polyphony once or twice, but that was it. Same goes for my Octapad and my TR-505.

 

The point is that we're not sending mega doses of data through the cord. If MIDI could choke on this, imagine how it would react to a mod wheel on a keyboard... And yet it works just fine.

Even daisy-chaining several devices together shouldn't introduce any appreciable latency.

 

I really don't think this is a problem.

[schmee]

as i understand it, or as was explained to me (and consistent with my two years experience on other brains compared to the tdw-1) this is exactly why the roland TDW-1+ brain's software is so important.

 

agreed otherwise on the triggers themselves, MIDI, et al.

[Saint Johnny B]

Super,

 

Sorry about the Cubs, I was hopin' they could end the loser legacy.

 

I meant no disrespect to Omar Hakim, I was just kidding. The man smokes many guys out there.

 

Anyone know much about Yami's offering? Alesis?

 

Anyway, I certainly hope Roland soon does a V2 and TD11.

 

What would be the ideal feature set in an absolutely great electonic drum kit? Comments? Opinions?

[freelance]

I've owned a TD10 VDrum set for 4 years (added the expansion about 1 year ago). While e-drums will never replace accoustic drums (and certainly e-cymbals will never replace accoustic cymbals) the VDrums are a very good product which can be very useful as both a practise kit and as a recording kit (in particular in a project studio that doesn't have a great sounding room, the right mics, etc. etc. etc.).

 

I have played e-drums since the 80's (started on Simmons) - and the V-Drums are the 3rd e-kit I've owned (and the TD10 is about the 7th drum module I've owned. (I've also owned over a dozen accoustic kits from maple, to birch to mahogany)so, I'm no novice.

 

I worked in a drum shop and was able to try just about everything out there (Roland, Yamaha, Hart, Pintech) however, I've never had any hands on with Ddrums.

 

If the TD-10 set is not the best - it has to be one of the 2 best (maybe shared with Ddrums). While I agree the Vdrums can't track every small technique as true as accoustics, they do what they do very well.

 

I don't expect an electric piano to sound (or play) exactly like a Steinway baby grand, I don't expect a Strat to sound (or play) exactly like a Martin accoustic, and I don't expect V-Drums to sound (or play) exactly like any of my accoustic kits - but I still use the V-drums as my studio kit.

[Saint Johnny B]

List of improvements?

 

More of something? Anything?

[Allan Speers]

Freelance,

 

What did you think of the Hart pads, vs the V-session pads? I'm starting to second-guess my decision and would like to know your opinion.

 

thanks.

[freelance]

Allen,

 

I agree with your findings, that the V-Drum pads seem to track better on the TD10 than Hart pads - which makes perfect sense, since the V-Drum pads were designed to work with the TD-10.

 

However, I thought the Hart pads tracked well enough for 90% of the applications I ran them thru.

 

I work in a studio that uses Hart pads to trigger Alesis modules and they work very well with the Alesis D4, DM5 & DMPro.

 

For the price I think Hart makes a good product (but as I'm sure you know they don't make a module - just triggers/pads).

 

I own Hart triggers for one of my accoustic kits and I've used the Hart pads (as well as their 6 pad controller). I've always felt Hart were dependable and reasonably priced.

 

Since I was able to get the V-Drums at a significant savings (by working in a drum shop) it was a no brainer, but if I would have been paying retail (or street price) I would probbly go with Hart pads with a DMPro (just for the cost savings).

 

But I'm very satisfied with the Rolands.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Super 8:

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

-That's because, internally, the brain DOESN"T USE MIDI.

Hmmmm.... I wonder about that. I don't know if that's true.

It is true. MIDI is not used by all-in-one sound modules, to trigger sounds. There are far better, faster systems than MIDI that have no bearing on the unit's ability to "speak" to other modules through MIDI. In a sense, using MIDI to trigger internal sounds would be like walking downstairs and outside to mail a letter to someone in your office.

[Bugsy34]

Freelance,

 

I had a D4 in my studio, I upgraded to the DM-Pro, man what a pain, I hate working with it. The D4 was pretty simple and sounds were good, I almost wish I hadn't made the switch.

 

Let me explain my setup:

 

Five toms with accoustic triggers

kick with accoustic trigger

pintech mesh pad for the snare

two LP Spikes for Accesories (woodblock, trash can, broken glass ect.)

 

The problem I run into is that all of the preset drumkits come with 2 or 3 toms, so if I am using 5, I have to make several changes. I would have to change the pitch on each of their 3 toms and use a high pitch for one drum, a low pitch for the next, so that I have five toms.

 

not bad on the D4, but on the DM-Pro, you have to figure out all of the DSP setting and it all turns into a nightmare. While you can save your settings, I think they should make it so you setup your size of drumkit, then it does everything else for you.

 

ie. input a 9 piece kit

 

then select type of kit Metal Thrash, or Country, and it applies the type to the size of your kit.

 

Did that make sense?

 

Sorry, just gripin here

 

Tim

[freelance]

bugse,

 

I actually did not know the DMPro was that much of a headache - the studio I work in that uses it normally has it set up and all I have to do it nail the track in one take (well maybe more than one take sometimes).

 

I have a D4 (have had it since they first came out) which I've used with Hart triggers on an accoustic set, and the parameters are pretty easy to work - which is why I indicate I would have gone the Hart/DMPro route.

 

I'll have to spend more time with the DMPro - to get a feel for what you don't like (when the studio click isn't ticking)- sorry to hearyour not happy with it.

[Super 8]

I always thought the D4 was kinda crappy. It had some decent sounds, but they had no nuance whatsoever. Editing was extremely limited. The cymbals -especially the rides were way too short.

 

Also, while the one I used held up just fine under less than desireable conditions, I was never convinced of it's durability.

 

BUT...

 

It was unique for it's time, offering pad-MIDI conversion, and a TON of sounds for about half of what the R8m and Emu Procussion were going for at the time. But the trade-off made it an 'okay' sounding and very limited module.

 

Did anybody here ever have any experience with the Kawai XD-5?

My understanding was that this thing was really deep in the editing department.

 

JohnnyB,

I think I mentioned what I thought would be an improvement for the TD-10. I can't think of anything else at the moment.

[Saint Johnny B]

Ok, thanks.

[Allan Speers]

"Did anybody here ever have any experience with the Kawai XD-5? My understanding was that this thing was really deep in the editing department."

 

Oh yeah! I used to have one of those. I did some mods to the output stage and blew the thing up, unforunately. I used to LOVE that box. I used some kind of additive synthesis or something to create it's sounds, so they were mondo expressive. The kicks were as beefy as a hunk of deep-fried pork fat, and there were many cool and unusual percussion sounds. Now that you mention it, maybe I'll try to find one on Ebay.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

used some kind of additive synthesis or something to create it's sounds, so they were mondo expressive.

I believe that. I have a K5000 synth that uses additive synthesis. It is a great synth.

 

I remember the Kawai coming out and I read a nice review about it. Then less than a year later, I saw them being blown-out at Guitar Center for 200 bucks. I ALMOST bought one... But I had my sights set on something that I couldn't afford.

[Allan Speers]

Yes, that synth used the same technology, and they go for good money used. Keyboard folks LOVE them. kawai made some fabulous products, but alas their marketing wasn't very good.

[Saint Johnny B]

I'm still wondering if any of you have any suggestions for improvements.

 

Maybe you could pretend you were designing the ultimate, beats-the-hell-out-of-everything-on-the-market electronic drums.

[Allan Speers]

Sure, I'll play, but we likely won't see this for another 4-5 years:

------------------------------------------------

 

5th or 6th generation V-drums.

 

Real heads made of Kevlar, for better feel plus longetivity.

 

More durable material for the rims. (Maybe rubber wrapped in thin Kevlar?)

 

Five triggers per head: Center plus four points at the rim. Sensors to use lasers for fast response, better resolution with tight heads, and long-term stability.

 

Hats that mount on a regular hats stand, so both the pedal and the hat pad itself react / feel like the real thing.

 

Tom clamps that have built-in shock absorbtion, so real cymbals can be mounted on the main stand without excessive cross-talk.

 

8 or more velocity levels.

 

Firewire or M-lan instead of midi, for sub-mllisecond response.

 

Unlimited memory (ram slots) for user samples. Ability to overlay the very cool V-drums sound-editing functions onto any user sample.

 

16 channels of lightpipe output, plus +4 level analog utput.

 

Bundled Mac & PC software for editing and librarian functions, and for remote control of sound-editing from the control room.

-------------------------------------------------

 

Where do I place my deposit?

[Saint Johnny B]

Thanks Alan, those are very cool ideas! Anyone got more?