Roland V Drums and other Electronic Drums

[Saint Johnny B]

Ok, I know the V-Drums have some problems with not enough triggers, cymbals and so forth and that they need to up-date their TD-10 module to allow more inputs and triggers. I also know they can be made to sound very cool and are a sound man's dream come true. Give him two wires and he's set.

 

Is Roland the best out there, or are there now better alternatives? What about Yamaha and the rest?

 

How about sharing your opinions, and ideas for improvements for electronic drums. Thanks.

[Super 8]

I think Roland definitely leads the pack. I know Ddrums were considered to be the Rolls Royce at one time. I don't know if that's the case anymore.

Ddrums have always been the most expensive option available, and usually pretty limited in terms of editing and user interface. I can't comment on how great they might be since I've never actually had the chance to play a set.

 

I like the VDrums. I don't personally own a kit, but I play one regularly -not top O the line, but close enough.

 

I think the nylon mesh pad idea was brilliant. In my opinion, electronic pads have now surpassed acoustic drums for feel. (flame suit on ). I don't have carpal tunnel, but I'd imagine that these pads would be good for a drummer with that problem, or to help prevent it in the first place.

 

They've done some amazing things to get more feel out of the cymbal sounds. It's pretty easy to pull off a realistic crash cymbal roll. The hi-hat also responds very well to various playing styles.

 

Same with the snare drum.

 

The user interface is pretty easy to understand. I'm not too nuts over the lack of a save feature. I realize they're trying to make it simple for people who don't get the idea that you have to "save" your edits. But it also means EVERYTHING you do is permanent unless you re-initialize the entire kit. At least offer an Edit/Compare feature so you can UNDO what you DUN DID.

 

My complaints are:

The hardware SUCKS for durability. WHY in the world would you make a tom holder clamp out of plastic!?!?!? We've gone through two of these stupid things! If you get a kit, make sure you get a couple of extra clamps. The hat and the snare are the ones you'll tighten the most to keep from moving, and they'll be the ones that break.

 

Also, the rubber ring that fits over the steel rim is a good idea, but it doesn't withstand the abuse of repeated rimshots -which is how I play. When I saw it wearing out, I just started layering duct tape (a musicians best friend) over the bad spot. I recommend putting two layers of tape down where you do your rimshots to protect the rubber.

 

On the TD unit itself, I feel constrained by the amount of editing options. I think the time has come to add some envelops and filters to the options. Make it more like a synth. These are the days of heavily processed drum sounds/loops. The TD module excels at realistic drum sounds -which is GOOD. But, I'd like to run those sounds through some processing bysides the standard reverb.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[Saint Johnny B]

Hmmm. It's been about 3 or 4 years since I spent 3 days and nite's editing the sounds in a set of V-drums, in the TD-10. After getting thru the manual it was fairly easy, to do some pretty cool things. Even the drummer/owner was happy with what I made it do.

 

I had to get rid of all the lame sequences that came as standard, and some other goofy things. The Roland rep said they did that to force drummmers to get into the box, but alas, I think it just pissed them off. Most of the drummers I know are not into the tech-weeny thing and they are not sound engineers who know how to tune and pan the various drums. One sound, I came up with you'd swear you were in the middle of a thunder cloud. It was so big and just awsome sounding, I assigned it to the kick for a particular song. The orginal sound I edited to make it sound like that was what???? Yup, you guessed it, breaking glass. So breaking glass became the sound of thunder with a lot of tweeking.

 

I'm not famliar with Ddrums, is that Pintech or DW or someone?

 

You are right on about the plastic hardware being pretty sucky, some guys use the stronger made Gibralter to get around the problem. I just saw a set of V-Drums the other day, the rubber rim was falling apart, so the duct tape idea to protect it is a good temp solution. But Roland should use better quality stuff, hardware and rubber, for the price they are charging for these kits you should get quality.

 

I hope others will chime in with ideas on Rolands and other co's electronic drums.

[jeff strong]

Johnny,

 

ddrums are great drums (for electrics). I've got a set of the ddrum4's in my studio for practicing (keeps the volume down) and have recorded with them too. They sound very good, although not as good as a live set miced properly. They're made by Clavia and are solid. They also use samples that you can interchange easily by simply downloading from the ddrums website (they're free) and dumping the sounds from a sequencer program. They're definately worth checking out.

 

Jeff

[Saint Johnny B]

Thanks. I dunno it's always a pain in the ass to get a great drum sound from an accoustic kit, you need lots of mics and racks full of gear, gates, comps, eq, reverbs, etc. It's just a whole lot easier to get usable sounds more quckly with the something like V-Drums. But I'm going to check into the Ddrums, thanks again.

 

Do we have any ideas to improve electronic drums?

[jeff strong]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

Thanks. I dunno it's always a pain in the ass to get a great drum sound from an accoustic kit, you need lots of mics and racks full of gear, gates, comps, eq, reverbs, etc. It's just a whole lot easier to get usable sounds more quckly with the something like V-Drums. But I'm going to check into the Ddrums, thanks again.

I can't argue with you there. It is a lot more work. Since you feel that way I'll bet you'd love the ddrums. They're the closest (to me anyway) to the sound and feel of a real kit. (and there's no plastic anywhere - even the brain is metal).

 

Do we have any ideas to improve electronic drums?

Since I started using the ddrums 3 years ago the only improvement that I'd like to see would be more inputs. It's not a big deal, though, because it's pretty easy to get around by choosing your sounds carefully and setting presets to be able to switch kits throughout the song (assumming you're playing live).

 

PM me and I'll send you some samples from a CD I made with the ddrum (or you can get them on the CD that comes with one of my books ).

 

Jeff

[Super 8]

What sort of editing is available with the D's?

 

By the way: DDrum was there long before the Nord synths came out. They date back to the days of Dynacord and Simmons. They are NOT a new kid on the block.

 

I think the Ddrum 4 has been around for some time. Do they upgrade the OS and so forth? Can you use your own samples or edit them and load them back to the brain?

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

But Roland should use better quality stuff, hardware and rubber, for the price they are charging for these kits you should get quality.

Roland should, but I don't think Roland will. I don't think they KNOW to do it. These guys make keyboards. They THINK like keyboard players. A drummer would never have done some of the things Roland has -like the plasic hardware, or putting the buttons and display on the old Octapad so close to the pad itself. Drummers know better.

 

You are paying for their technology. For sure, it is electronics for drummers designed by keyboardists. They even dumbed down the interface for our simple brains.

[jeff strong]

Originally posted by Super 8:

What sort of editing is available with the D's?

Editing is pretty rudimentary - pitch, decay and some other basics. There are no effects on the drums (except what were used when the samples were recorded) so you really can't do much to them. Clavia has a ton of different samples though, so I think it would be easy to find a drum that you like and adjust the basics from there.

 

From what I understand version 1.5 software has some features such as sequencing that I'm not familiar with (I'm using version 1.4) so there might be some more editing capabilities that I'm not aware of.

 

I think the Ddrum 4 has been around for some time. Do they upgrade the OS and so forth?

They've been around a while. Mine is 3 years old and I know they were around a for at least a year before that. They've updated the OS three times. Although, I don't think the changes to the OS over the years have made a lot of difference. The basic kit is the same with the exception of an increase in flash RAM that holds the sounds - allowing more to be stored at once.

 

Can you use your own samples or edit them and load them back to the brain?

Yes, you can create and load you own samples (I just checked theddrum forum), I don't know about editing the factory ones though but I'd guess it's possible too.

 

I probably haven't been much help. The guys at the

ddrums.com forum know a lot more than I do so it might be worth asking them.

 

Jeff

 

(Edited because i don't know what the heck I'm talking about )

[Injun Killer]

I think V-drums are horrible, especially since they cost as much as a high-quality acoustic kit. The velocity response is very un-smooth, they have hot spots, the hardware is flimsy, and the drum samples are a joke. They're seductive at first, until you get them home and realize what a PITA they are to play.

[Bugsy34]

You might want to check out the Alesis DMPRO or if you can get an old D4 on ebay, they're not bad at all.

 

The DMPRO has like 14 or 16 inputs, that can be used for any of the sounds, some have dual inputs for the snare/rim and for the hihat.

 

I used them with Pintech mesh head triggers, much like the VDRUM triggers only alot cheaper.

 

The D4 has some pretty good sounds, the DMPRO adds FXs, and they both have decent editing, and you can save all settings and use a pedal to switch through them if you like.

 

One way to help getter a better sound from these digital drums is to mic you kit and blend it with the electronics. I was never happy with any electronic cymbals, so I always used real cymbals and just mic'd them.

 

But I don't think you'll ever get as good a sound as if you mic'd a good kit.

 

Just an opinion

 

Tim

[schmee]

as i understand it, from one of the chaps who worked on the programming, the real trick to the v-drums is their software and the algorithms that deliver some of the feel aspects of the instrument.

 

given my limited experience with other systems i'm inclined to believe it, but know nothing regardless.

 

just thought it was worth mentioning.

 

i love mine and am not aware of anything else even remotely close.

[MPCman]

Originally posted by Super 8:

Ddrums have always been the most expensive option available, and usually pretty limited in terms of editing and user interface.

A 5 piece ddrum4 kit will cost about the same as a Roland TD-8 kit, a basic TD-10 setup is much more expensive then a ddrum4 kit.

 

Originally posted by MusicMedicine:

From what I understand version 1.5 software has some features such as sequencing that I'm not familiar with (I'm using version 1.4) so there might be some more editing capabilities that I'm not aware of.

Version 1.5 does not feature any sequencing at all. 1.4 was mainly to add mesh head triggering algoritms, while 1.5 added a higher output volume and a bit more editing options(using the variation function) for your own samples.

 

They've been around a while. Mine is 3 years old and I know they were around a for at least a year before that. They've updated the OS three times. Although, I don't think the changes to the OS over the years have made a lot of difference. The basic kit is the same with the exception of an increase in flash RAM that holds the sounds - allowing more to be stored at once.

The ddrum4 came out in 1996! The amount of flashram is still the same as back then: 8mb. The biggest changes in OS have been to support newer pads. When the ddrum4 came out, there were no cymbal pads and mesh pads.

[MPCman]

double post

[jeff strong]

Thanks for the clarification MPCman (see, I told you I didn't know what I was talking about ).

 

Regardless, they sound great and are built like a tank.

 

Jeff

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Pricey:

I think V-drums are horrible, especially since they cost as much as a high-quality acoustic kit. The velocity response is very un-smooth, they have hot spots, the hardware is flimsy, and the drum samples are a joke. They're seductive at first, until you get them home and realize what a PITA they are to play.

Ha,ha! LOL. But don't hold back.. Tell us what you really think!

 

A good friend of mine has used electronic drums for over 10 years. He began by building his own pad sets out of RS, piezo, doorbell buzzer elements sandwiched in cork, wood, and rubber. He mounted them to surplus rubber attached to Rubbermaid plates. They worked great and drummers loved his pads. The brain was a D4, which became a DM5. He kept the D4 for sounds, because it's sounds were different than those in the DM5. Only when the V-Drum sets were released did he give up on building his own. The technology surpassed what he could fabricate at home. He bought a V-Drum kit.

 

Keep in mind, he was recording in an 8x10' room, so acoustic drums weren't even an option. Now he lives in a townhome. Despite the fact his neighbors have never heard any bleed from the studio, he continues to record with the V-Drums. So far, he's had many skeptical drummers opt for the ease of use and sound of his electronic kit. He offers to record drums at a studio that can handle real drums in style, but few groups have taken him up on it.

 

Do I think the V-Drums are equal to a properly mic'd and recorded acoustic drum set? No. Do I think they approximate a real drum set. Hell, yes! Are they sufficient for most projects? In the right hands, yes.

 

I don't know if he's had to replace any hardware, but I doubt you can get the proper feel with more rugged rubber on the snare. Last time I checked, acoustic drums were pretty expensive and required head changes periodically. While it would be nice to have indestructable material in place of the rubber, I think that's a pretty baseless critique, considering the alternative. As for the hardware... well.. it certainly would have been intelligent to provide robust hardware. Then again, I've seen my share of metal hardware failures, so it could go either way. Especially, but not limited to, powdered metal products.

 

Regardless, the Roland V-Drum sets are wonderful products, but they won't please everyone. Not even everyone who plays electronic drums.

[techristian]

Super8

 

I think the nylon mesh pad idea was brilliant. In my opinion, electronic pads have now surpassed acoustic drums for feel. (flame suit on ). I don't have carpal tunnel, but I'd imagine that these pads would be good for a drummer with that problem, or to help prevent it in the first place.

 

 

For once we agree on something! I have the Roland RM-2 RP-2 combo for practice and it is great. I'm pushing beyond the limits of musical drumming.

 

Dan

http://teachmedrums.com

http://teachmedrums.com/rp2.jpg

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Pricey:

I think V-drums are horrible, especially since they cost as much as a high-quality acoustic kit. The velocity response is very un-smooth, they have hot spots, the hardware is flimsy, and the drum samples are a joke..

Well, I can respect an opinion. But I'm really struggling with your comments. My experience has -aside from the hardware issue, for which I agree- has been completely different. I think the dynamics are really quite good. The samples are also good, but sound quality is always a subjective issue.

 

Regarding the price. I don't see the relevance here. I don't expect a strat to cost less than an acoustic guitar. To me, I have always viewed electronic drums as a different instrument from acoustic drums. Just like electric guitars are different instruments from acoustics.

 

They can both do many of the same things, but there are different areas that each excels at. I don't expect electronics to be able to sound JUST LIKE acoustics, or to respond to the exact same playing approach either.

 

Like Bill Bruford said in a really cool interview, "Electronic drums are just a different shovel to dig the same hole".

[Injun Killer]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Do I think they approximate a real drum set. Hell, yes! Are they sufficient for most projects? In the right hands, yes.

I stand behind what I said. I played V-drums for about 2 years, because I lived in an apartment. I had plenty of time to get used to them. I found the response to be absolutely horrible compared to real drums. Here's what I don't like about them:

1. The pad has a hot spot, because it only uses 1 sensor. Moving the drumstick one inch causes a huge change in volume.

2. The samples only have 3 or 4 velocity layers, and the transition is not smooth.

3. The difference between loud and soft is exaggerated.

4. The "brain" has no randomization, stacking, or alternation features. Even my ancient Yamaha DTS70 brain has this!

5. Out of 1000 samples, only a few are useable. The so-called "physical modeling" is just a set of EQ curves applied to samples.

6. They are not silent. If you live in an apartment, the loud thumping will drive your neighbors nuts.

 

As a drummer, I find V-Drums to be unplayable. It's simply impossible to get any kind of feel out of them. No matter what you do, it sounds like a drum machine. They're not even good as practice pads, because the heads feel like trampolines.

 

Bottom line, this product was not designed by drummers. It has many engineering and programming flaws which Roland has never bothered to fix. It's certainly not worth $2000+.

[Injun Killer]

dbl post

[Alndln]

Originally posted by Pricey:

2. The samples only have 3 or 4 velocity layers, and the transition is not smooth.

 

5. Out of 1000 samples, only a few are useable. The so-called "physical modeling" is just a set of EQ curves applied to samples.

Since most people have a home computer or laptop these days,what would stop anyone from using something like a VST host with something like Battery or the DR-008 which has many more layers,and you can use whatever samples you like.I'm not even a drummer,but that's what I do with an Octapad for overdubs ect.,hell,I'd even bring a laptop on the road rather than rely on a modules sounds.After that,I guess it's wether you like the hardware or not.That would be my first priority,Hardware.Great drumsamples are availible.

[Super 8]

Pricey,

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no way you had those drums set up properly. Nothing about what you are saying has any consistancy with my experience or that of any other drummer I've spoken with. I mean, if it's not your thing -I can certainly respect that. But I'm seriously questioning whether you had them set up completely wrong, or you were even playing Vdrums, or you're just trashing the product.

 

Seriously. What you are saying just doesn't sound right.

 

Please don't take that wrong. I really want to give you the benifit of the doubt. But it's kind of like reading somebody say that the picture on a 50" High Definition telivision sucks! It just doesn't make sense unless the person had a defective unit or had it completely set up wrong...

[Super 8]

Originally posted by techristian:

For once we agree on something!

I wasn't aware that you and I were at such odds. I'll have to pay better attention in the future.

 

Glad we're at least agreeing now.

[Saint Johnny B]

I first heard of V-Drums from a guy called Omar Hakim. He's a pretty good hack drummer with a few small credits. Anyway, we tried them and were blown away by the capability. The drummer, a guy with a few small credits of his own, objected at first, but after we edited the hell out of it to meet his personal playing style, he was extremely happy.

 

In terms of depth, it's like getting a complete digital mixer, a rack full of comps and gates, tons of mics, tons of effects like reverb and delay, tons of different drums, plus you get other sounds, and you can record on it too on a 4 track sequencer. You can then trigger your sequences and play things you could never do with a straight-laced accoustic set. Like play along with something you prev'ly recorded. It's also great for drum teachers and students, because they can exchange files and lessons. They do cost too much, but it's like getting 20k worth of equipment when you add it all up, comps, effects, mics, etc. I found the user interface pretty sweet and easy-to-use.

 

To meet some of the objections, Roland made some improvements. Floppy Cymbals and so on. Slightly better hardware. There's much more they could do.

 

I think they are on the right track, but more improvements can certainly be made. Like more zones and triggers on the pads and increased inputs on the brain to handle the additional zone/triggers. It's almost entirely there. The next major rev, should nail it. We'll see if Roland and the others are still listening.

 

I think there is a resistance to change from the mechanical to the digital world by many drummers, they seem to dismiss the electronic stuff out of hand. There was a man who once said something to the effect that there is one way to forever remain in a state of ignorance, and that is have an attitude of "contempt prior to investigation." I'm not saying that all drummers are ignorant, that would be stupid of me to make such a wide, sweeping, and hasty generalization, as bad as saying that all conservatives are morons who resist changes and reforms sought by sane liberals. In fact, I personally like a lot of conservatives, esp those who want to conserve the planet's environment. It's just that sometimes we need to stay flexible and consider the big picture, like how easy is it for the soundman to make changes in the drum sound in mid-song, how hard is it for him or her to get a good sound in the first place. How much will it cost to get that awesome drum sound out of an accoustic kit, how much will that rack full of gear weigh if we take it on the road. All those kinds of considerations point in the direction of change, and that will mean new and improved electronic drums. Let's hope they keep listening to the users and get it right.

 

I'd like to hear from those who have solutions to problems and ideas for improvements. Thanks.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Super 8:

Pricey,

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no way you had those drums set up properly. Nothing about what you are saying has any consistancy with my experience or that of any other drummer I've spoken with. I mean, if it's not your thing -I can certainly respect that. But I'm seriously questioning whether you had them set up completely wrong, or you were even playing Vdrums, or you're just trashing the product.

 

Seriously. What you are saying just doesn't sound right...

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I'm not about to equivocate any electronic drum set with an acoustic set, but your experience seems to be that of someone who didn't understand how to set up the system. They don't react like acoustic drums, but they're far better than you make them appear, IMO. (And I still prefer the sound of acoustic drums. But the technology is very useful.)

[Super 8]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

I first heard of V-Drums from a guy called Omar Hakim. He's a pretty good hack drummer with a few small credits.

I'm not sure what a "hack drummer" is, but when did Sting and Weather Report become small potatoes?

[Super 8]

What are the opinions of the expansion board for the TD-10?

[Injun Killer]

No, I definitely had them set up right. I got very deep into the programming, and even hooked them up to Gigasampler. They have a hot spot, and the velocity curve is very weird and un-drumlike, no matter how you set the response. I think E-drums should use a velocimeter in the sticks. This would radically improve the velocity response. But this is something Roland will never think of, because they're not drummers.

 

Maybe it's because I'm a thrash metal drummer and play fast, complex material, but these drums are way too glitchy for me. It's also a matter of style. I have a kind of John Bonham style, and it doesn't come across on V-drums. It doesn't sound like me. A great drummer knows how to make the drums "speak" by hitting them a certain way, and he hits them differently depending on the mood of the song. Drumming requires a lot of finesse. When you're playing samples (drums, piano, orchestral, whatever), you're just triggering a digital recording of someone else's performance. It's disconnected from the music.

[Super 8]

I think your expectations are unrealistic. The reason Vdrums or any E drum doesn't sound like acoustic drums is because (suprise) they aren't acoustics... To unleash the sound of E's, you MUST alter your approach.

 

Find me a guitarist who uses the same approach on a stratocaster that they would use on an acoustic guitar, and I'll show you an awful sounding strat! Why? Because, although they are very similar instruments, they are NOT the same instuments. They are different.

 

It's the same with E drums.

 

Guitarists generally take this stuff for granted. Drummers often just don't get it. It sounds different because it IS different...

 

But if you think playing synths or samples is being "disconnected" from the music, there is a WORLD of music made with these kinds of instruments that you need to be introduced to. Some really great -VERY EXPRESSIVE- stuff.

[techristian]

Ok way back in 87 I bought my first set of Roland Octapads. I still own them today. I know that they were very tricky to set up , but with patience I was able to set up the curve and sensitivity properly and I used them to record my first CD. It was all MIDI back then. They were as hard as a tabletop, but with the right springy acrylic drumsticks they felt more like real drums.

 

Fast forward to 2001. I began my second CD. I told myself NO MIDI. I want real feel and real drums. Well 2 years have past and I still get a better congo sound with samples and those "real" drums that you hear on my next CD are mostly loops AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE THAT BIG SOUND that I got with the old MIDI drums. Yes the acoustic drums do have more feel. There are also SAMPLED sounds as well on my new CD.

 

So I see that new VDRUMS are extremely expensive and I know that I'm not even impressed by the DUAL TRIGGER pads. I already know that I can accomplish everything that I want to do with RP-2 Vdrums using MIDI VELOCITY, an old Octapad ,SPD-11, some CUBASE drum sounds and my own homemade stand. (I have a welder and an idea hit me a few weeks ago.) I have also noticed that the RP-2 can be bought at Sweetwater for about $85. I can buy 10 of these for $850. I can put together quite a powerful set of drums for that money!

 

Ok the pros and cons I have found for Vdrums.

 

The Pros

 

1) Vdrums have great sound because the professionals that sample them are using very expensive microphones in proper acoustic environments.

 

2) Have quality sounds saves hours of microphone setup. There is no worry of microphone cancellation or 60~ hum because each sound was already recorded.

 

3) Vdrums can play 1000's of sounds.

 

4) Unlike their 90's predecessor, the Roland Octapad, you can play them faster than acoustic drums because they have more rebound.

 

5) When they are disassembled they take up less space.

 

The Cons

 

1) They are tricky to set up and take some time to adapt to.

 

2) In some ways they aren't as expressive as acoustic drums.

 

3) They won't work when the power goes out.

 

SO I'M SAYING THAT I'M TORN BETWEEN THE ACOUSTIC AND ELECTRONIC. I'll probably continue to use both in the future!

 

Dan

 

http://teachmedrums.com