Die-cast rims ?

[Allan Speers]

first a liitle story, then my question:

 

I have a very old, very nice DW maple snare drum. Big and beefy, but the rimshot never recorded well. It had flanged rims, so my local dealer said I should try die-cast rims. He warned me that though this would give me a louder rimshot, it might change the main snare sound in a way I wouldn't like.

 

I figured that @ only $60 I could always remove it, so I ordered just one rim fro the top. (didn't wanna blow $120 for two if it didn't work.)

 

Well, the snare is now SERIOUSLY improved. Besides a loud, fat rimshot, the regular snare sound gained a little substance. More importantly, it became more sensitive and there is more tonal variation in its dynamic response.

 

I'm thrilled, so here's my question:

---------------

 

Does anyone know if I will get a similar improvement from replacing the BOTTOM rim? Same deal, it's a custom, none-returnable order.

 

thoughts?

[Prof.Sound]

Rules for Hoops/Rims

 

1. Die Cast Hoops: Thicker and stronger then triple flanged stamped hoops with an ability to allow more even tuning of the head and as a result, the head is usually more responsive throughout the tuning range with less varied overtones. As such, may create a slightly drier sound on thin shell, small sized drums due the weight of the rim causing the drum to vibrate less freely. They can also be made out of differing materials such as nickel or aluminum and all aid in changing the sound of the drum.

 

2. Triple Flanged or "stamped" hoops come in a variety of metals, which affect the tone of the drum. The thinner they are the more difficult they'll be to tune with. Many drummers prefer these on toms because of the ability to tune "fatter" or "warmer" than with cast. Aluminum makes for a higher pitched tone than does steel and as a result is used on snares quite a bit for a great "crack". Brass makes the drum more musical and aids in the presence or high-pitched overtones.

 

3. Wood Hoops have the virtue of being either rigid or flexible, depending upon the manufacturer's thickness of the hoop. As a result, they can take on the tuning characteristics of a cast hoop if rigid or flanged hoops if thin in construction. However, the rimshot sound is considerably different and acts like an extension of the shell so the drum is usually both more resonant and brighter.

 

4. Less lugs means fatter tuning and more complex overtones. The longer the interval between lugs the less likely you are to get the head tuned evenly between lugs.

 

5. A hoop of "rigid" nature results in a head, which can be tuned more evenly between lugs and will accentuate the imperfection in your drum if out of round or bad bearing edges. Sometimes, this causes a drier or more muffled sound as a result of inferior bearing edges.

------------

This text is from the link below. As to the question at hand, it may very well improve your sound if you felt the previous change was an improvement. It is not customary to have a different resonant side from the batter side, I would suggest replacing the resonant side as well. However, the cast hoop you purchase should probably be from DW to insure the gap where the snare strianer connects to the throw-off does not bind against the snares, strap or cord.

[Allan Speers]

Holy cow! thanks, psound.

[dayvel]

It depends on how you tune your bottom head. Like a lot of drummers, I detune the four lugs adjacent to the snare bed. As a result, my bottom rim has a quite noticeable curve to it. Die-cast hoops are too rigid for this technique to work, so I use a triple flanged hoop on the bottom.

[DrummerCafe]

The diecast rim isn't going to affect the sound (to the same degree) with the resonance head like it does with the batter head.

 

It's not uncommon to see a kit with diecast rims on the batter side and triple flanged rims on the resonance side. The reasoning behind it is that you get the attack and "crack" from the diecast rim.

 

I don't think the comparison between the snare's improvement, having a diecast rim added to the bottom, and the potential tom tom improvement by adding a similar rim to the resonance side is realistic. I say this because the role of both drums is totally different. The snare head is going to be cranked fairly tight (firm). Tom resonant heads are tuned more for the pitch you desire, if you tune them using the technique of the batter being looser than the resonant head ... which is the most popular these days.

 

As mentioned, the diecast rims tend to give a dryer sound ... holding the head firmly in place. Kind of like the results you get when you leave the beater on the kick batter head. (sorry, couldn't resist)

[Allan Speers]

Ouch! touche' Bartman.

 

Thanks for the excellent points, guys.

 

dayvel,

 

I just tried that snare-lug detuning thing. That's a great trick. In my quick experiment, I started with the whole bottom head equal to the top, then tightened the "non-strainer 6." This gave improved crack without sacrificing the amount of buzz.

 

Question: Do you start with the bottom head equal to, or tighter than the snare's batter head? How much do you detune, and why? I realize that this will vary with the particular drum at hand, I'm just looking for more ideas on the subject.

[dayvel]

This is how I do it: take the bottom head up as high as you can. Detune the four lugs so they're barely beyond the finger-tightening stage. Snare drums are built to be tuned this way. If you look at the rim of the drum under where the strainer stings pass, you'll notice a depression in the bearing edge on each side of the drum. This forms the "snare bed". Basically this lets you get a lot of buzz without rattle. The more you detune the lugs, the more you'll need to loosen the snares and you may need to pull out the strings a bit to get things in the proper range for the tension adjuster on the throw off.

[Prof.Sound]

Originally posted by Bartman:

I don't think the comparison between the snare's improvement, having a diecast rim added to the bottom, and the potential tom tom improvement by adding a similar rim to the resonance side is realistic.

I agree about the snare comment, but then again people can often hear things that they think they hear, or do not choose to hear what they aren't aware of, aren't trained to or don't care to, as the case may be?

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I respect everybody's opinion. But lets face it, excluding natural ability, we all have an ability to hear what we want and tend to focus on something that excites us or makes us cringe, when yet another person likes the opposite things.

 

I still think it "uncommon" to see quality sets/drums with mixed hoops. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because Im sure something you dont think happens, happens. But it would certainly fit the uncommon category. So if it gets you where you want to be, then go for it.

 

I think that if you liked the "improvement" you heard by replacing the batter side, you'll find a similar "improvement" by replacing the resonant side.

 

If its sympathetic vibrations you are trying to eliminate, then all bets are off because this can be as much or more environmental than specific to a hoop. Cast hoops can often make the issue worse because they tend to not give way to detuning techniques as well as flanged hoops do.

 

But I have to always concede that the term "improvement" is all subjective.

[Allan Speers]

Interesting development:

 

While i find darvel's detuning idea intriguing, and it seems to work, I was worried about damaging either the hoop or the drum. I sent an email query to Professor sound, who wrote the above-mentioned Drum Bible (great site, thanks P Sound!) He has a good argument for NOT doing this, though of course there are many ways to shave the kitty and I still like darvel's idea. Here is Prof. Sound's response:

--------------------

 

The reason for a snare bed is simply to allow snares to ride up into the resonant head. This is the same reason what a true snare side head is thinner than any other. It is to allow the snare to ride up into the head.

 

Snare drums without the snare bed tend to buzz quite a bit. They exhibit much more sympathetic resonance than if the drum was built with the depression.

 

The resonant head on a snare drum must move every time the batter head is hit. Now think about this a bit. If the head was real tight does it make much sense that the head will move more or less than if it were under less tension? The answer is, it moves more and a further distance PROVIDED the snare unit is not too tight against the head as well.

 

Raising pitch causes the snare unit to be less responsive yet at the same time, a much quicker duration of the snare tone is heard because the tension on the heads creates less movement. There are basically 4 ways to counteract this. 1 - buy a smaller diameter drum, which allows you to raise pitch without putting so much tension on the heads. 2 - Use a thinner 200 weight snare side head. At the same pitch the head is allowed to move more and the end result is more snare sound and a brighter snare sound. 3 - Snare tension can be adjusted to allow the snare to breath more. Simply put, if the snare can not move, you get little for stick response. 4 - any combination of the above 3, which mathematically works out to 9 possibilities.

 

Re your question if tightening the piss out of the head and then releasing the tension on the 4 lugs may or may not harm the shell? It depends upon how tight "tight" is? It will most assuredly deform the hoop, and as a round hoop deforms it becomes elliptical. So one can assume it will putting much more tension on the two edges of the shell 90 degrees apart from the snare connection point.

 

Cast hoops kill a lot of resonance because they are heavier. The pitch of the cast hoop is typically higher than a flanged hoop. Because they are heavier, they will keep the shell from resonating as much. Flanged hoops are softer and allow more resonance. Flanged hoops have a softer feel and you feel like you are playing deeper into the drum, not as much on the surface as it feels with a cast hoop.

 

My advice is this and its advice that Steve Gadd follows as well as Dave Weckle and many other top rated drummers. Tune the top side for feel and the bottom side for pitch. If you cannot achieve the pitch you want and the feel you want (very important to get the feel), then you need to look for another drum, be it smaller or larger. The note duration (resonance) is all about depth, otherwise known as articulation. Shorter is a shorter note, longer is a longer note. If you want your drum drier, use cast hoops, otherwise you need to use lighter weight hoops, aluminum, flanged, wood, etc.

 

For your snare, I'd tell you to go try a Evans glass20 snare side head or a REMO Diplomat or Evans 200 weight snare side head. Use the glass20 if you want it dry and bright. Otherwise, all of these will give you more snare sound provided you do not over tighten the snare unit.

 

-Prof.Sound

[Prof.Sound]

Allen - While I don't mind you making public this email, I would have appreciated you making an inquiry with me in advance so I knew what was posted and where?

 

Nonetheless, I want to make a statement I made clearer:

 

Drummers buy drumsets without much knowledge (given or received) about which snare drum, or any drum is proper for the sound they want to achieve. So the end result is, drummers are buying drumkits with snare drums that are typically the wrong size for the tone and feel they want to achieve.

-Prof.Sound

In the context of the question I assumed you asked, I did not mean to imply "all" drummers do this. I can see now in reading my response that one might get that impression. The statement was more with referance to beginning drummers. Obviously there are many seasoned pros and consumers who have put lots of thought into their purchases.

 

I do want to emphasize that my response to you is how I think about the issue and it is not to imply that some other persons methods are wrong as such. Because as you have pointed out, you got a result you liked. I think anyone with a studio background can think of many things they have done that are "improper" but at the same type got a result they wanted at the time.

 

My attempt is to put a little more logical spin on the issue and get people to think a bit deeper on the reason certain things happen or may happen as the case may be.

 

All the best.

[Allan Speers]

P sound,

 

my apologies for jumping the gun, but I did in fact ask you ahead of time for permission. As you didn't reply right away, and I am in need of answers right away (drum sessions this weekend, and I don't want to destroy an expensive snare) I went ahead with the quote. Granted, I probably should have waited another day or so for your reply.

 

BTW, somehow I didn't realize that you and Professor Sound are one in the same, even though it now seems obvious. (I think early senility may be setting in.)

 

Your website is fantastic, I have learned a ton from it. Many thanks!

----------------------

 

Anyway:

The most impoortant thing you said which counters darvels method is that this will probably throw the hoop out of round. that makes sense to me and scares me a littel, both for sonics and for safety of the drum.

 

Darvel, have you checked this? Is it possible that the flanged hoop is so flexible that it stays round? Have you done this for a long time, with no apparent ill-effect on the drum? as I said above, this technique seems to work for me, but I'm still concerned.

[dayvel]

I've been using this tuning technique for quite a while with no damage to my snare drums. As for the hoops, they will definitely be a little out of round when they're tuned like this, as to whether this permanently bends the hoops, I don't know; I've never bothered to check when changing heads. I assume they are a little bent, but I don't see how that matters.

I first read about this technique in an article on the late great Nashville sudio drummer, Larrie Londin. I gave it a try and really liked the way it sounded. Many years later, I read an interview with Buddy Rich where he described his method of tuning the snare head, which was to take it up as high as it would go, then loosen the four lugs. Interestingly, Buddy used the opposite approach that Steve and Dave use; he tuned the top head to achieve the desired pitch even though this might make it a little harder to play because the top head might be a little looser than it would otherwise be. I haven't really found this to be the case, though.

Another advantage of this tuning technique is that you'll usually get less sympatheic snare buzz when you hit your toms and bass drum, a real plus when you're recording.

In the end though, it's all a matter of your taste and the drum itself. I wouldn't worry about harming the drum, though.

[Prof.Sound]

Well, all I can say is "things change", which inherently means, they may only be right for the times from which they are born. It seems the definition of right vs. wrong is based upon a test of time.

 

When I started, some distant 35 years ago, all bets were off. I learned a great deal from Louis Bellson, and many other pros that frequented Franks Drum Shop in Chicago. At the time, I just did what people said, and honestly, during the time of Buddy Rich, I don't think there was too much effort in trying to understand tuning concepts. And really, the reason why I created the DTB is because people still really were not discussing them or making them available to drummers. Most of the top LA studio guys do simply call in Drum Doctors and say tune me up a kit to sound like "X".

 

And lets face it, guys like we have been discussing are in classes by themselves. Their ability to play goes way beyond the need to have good stick rebound or not. I've seen some of these guys on a personal level play the hell out of a feather pillow.

 

Hardware has progressed in many respects, and the need for new drum companies to flourish has made everyone think a bit more about the "why" and "how" things happen so they can sell the concepts.

 

Just look at all the new heads that have emerged since the early 60's much less hardware a shell options?

 

The reason I used the term "misguided" was not to diss dayvel, but rather because I think "dayvel" has taken the detuning concept a bit far. This has been practiced for years, much of it in concert/symphonic snare playing. It is usually practiced to retard snare buzz, not enhance it. And actually Allen, I mention this concept in the DTB under how to control Sympathetic resonance (buzz), but not to the extent dayvel has taken it. He is not alone though.

 

I struggled with these same issues when I was 16 years old, about 3 years into playing. So I called down to Franks and explained my problem. They shipped me out a REMO Diplomat snare side head stating that it will fix my problem. You'll get more snare sound. They said don't tune to piss out of the snare, don't tighten the snares too much cause if you do they will choke and be more prone to buzzing then if you have the proper tension, etc, etc. I was doing all the opposite things. Result - problem fixed and I've never looked back but to retain the concepts. So some concepts are very old and really not new to anyone other than those who've not experienced them.

 

I've seen many a drum come across the counter at shops that are deformed to the extent he states, and it deos retain its deformed character if taken to extreme. I've never found a reason to say that you must deform the hoop to get the end result we've been discussing. Nonetheless, its works for him and he's happy with it. Just like I've never seen a reason (IMO) to use 42 strand snare units, but they sell and people use them.

 

It's all about understanding tuning and being able to hear the often very subtle differences. I've taken beginners by hand a showed them from bare shell to finished result how to get the tone they want. I've taken drums and in little as a minute dialed in their desired one when they are insisting they must change the heads to get there. Some grab on and go, others never get it because they cannot focus or grasp whats going on, or maybe just cannot hear the subtle keys to making it work? But lots of them end up be great players nonetheless.

 

Drum playing is an expressive art. Some things will come across on a recording, others not. Its all about what will inspire you to play at your best. I'm simply passing on ideas and concepts and a bit of discussion on the ramifications of many of them. I try to give my opinion, with some facts. However, I try hard to refrain from stating that someones idea of obtaining their expressive art form is wrong.

 

This is just another one of those instances.

[djarrett]

Where Bart makes reference to a set with mixed rims, heads, etc. is more often true in studios ... than in live arenas.

 

I have been in studios in Nashville ... where I play a killer kit that is assembled out of all kinds of drum company's items. Even will find a bass drum from one company, toms from another, and many snares to chose from. This isn't cause the studio could not afford anything but piece-meal, but rather cause these parts all assembled produced the very best studio sound that the particular engineer could assemble.

 

You are correct, most drums you see out are factory assembled when it comes to the chrome they sport.

 

I actually like Diecast on my snares (or wood) but prefer triple flanged on my toms.

 

DJ

[reachjkh]

OK, my head is spinning now.

 

That's it...I'm calling my pro-drummer buddy to come tutor me this weekend on tuning(I love how his set sounds). I just can't absorb this kind of info in written form alone.

 

whew! But, keep typing, I'll keep reading.