Bury the beater or pull it back?

[HiRoller]

What are the advantages or disadvantages of each? Does it depend on the style of music you're playing or is it just personal preference? I'm a guitar/bass player learning drums and I like the tone of pulling the beater back and letting the head ring, but my kick seems a little more consistant burying the beater against the head until the next hit instead of pulling back and flopping around.

[offramp]

I tend to bury it. I wish I could stop, sometimes, but it isn't easy. It would be nice to be able to let the kick breathe as much as the rest of the kit, especially during soft passages.

[Allan Speers]

HiRoller,

 

I've been a recording engineer for about 25 years now. The only way to get a good kick recorded is to "let it breath." If you bury the beater, the drum won't ring and engineers will absolutely hate you. learn to do it right, it's worth it.

 

Also, as an amateur drummer, I have been experimenting with various heel height (ala the DW adjustment shims) and this makes quite a difference to my un-developed leg muscles. the right height definitely helps get a good snap and bounce off the head.

[where02190]

IMHO it is totally dependant on musical style, song genre, etc. I can't imaging Metallica with a ringing jazz kick drum no more than I can imagine MJQ with an Alex Van Halen kick drum.

 

Personally I tend to swithc up styles alot, but have a preference for a full front head. This allows me to do either, and get a massive tone. My prefered drum and heads are 20" kick with a coated ambassador on the beater side and a fyberskin on the front.A felt damper, cut in half is used, one half on each side approx 2/3 out from center, and the heads are tuned low but ambient, so if I lay off, I get this sort of parade bass drum sound. If I stay on the ehad, I get a nice solid thimpy whack. the drum is usually double mic'd, LD condensor (414, AT 4033) on the front and 57 or beta 57a on the beater. Often I'll use an old no name 24" shell with a pinstripe head on one end and a 12-15" speaker suspended facing out on the other (with a cable attached to a DI run to a mic pre) for added depth and low end. I pu the speaker end of this facing the front of the kic, blanket over the real kic and the speaker mic kick, put a mic in the speaker mic as well, and track that way. Time align the three tracks, and you've got a killer sound, huge bottom (from the speaker mic, which requires alot of preamp gain and has only about 2 1/2 octave range roll everything off from about 125 and up) sweet overtones from teh front mic and adjsutable attack from the beater mic.

[D_dup3]

not a real drummer myself, so I'm just butting in.

 

You may've already seen this but check this thread for ideas...Terry & P Sound posts, about #12 into the thread (near the end, as it stands now).

[Rod Gervais]

I agree that a lot of it depends on the genre of music........ but it also plays to dynamics... which (IMHO) is key to any GOOD music.

 

I play open generally - will ocsassionally mute with my right pedal (my high hat foot) to create the effect of a buried beater - without losing the ability to continue to play my style (i get better - faster - smoother beats without a buried beater)

 

But that's just my style.........

 

Rod

[Bugsy34]

I have to agree it is part of dynamics, much like an open strum on guitar, or stopping the ring with your hand after the strum.

 

I use both methods while playing, although, for the most part, I let the kick breathe. If you always bury the beater, it will sound noticeably differant when you start to do triples, or other fast footwork.

 

Steve Smith has a great video out that explains in detail how to use your kick, he shows three differant methods, all of which he uses depending on the song and type of speed he needs.

 

This is a great video for someone who is just starting out, as I wish I would have seen it 30 years ago. LOL

 

Tim

[Bugsy34]

If I stay on the ehad, I get a nice solid thimpy whack. the drum is usually double mic'd, LD condensor (414, AT 4033) on the front and 57 or beta 57a on the beater. Often I'll use an old no name 24" shell with a pinstripe head on one end and a 12-15" speaker suspended facing out on the other (with a cable attached to a DI run to a mic pre) for added depth and low end. I pu the speaker end of this facing the front of the kic, blanket over the real kic and the speaker mic kick, put a mic in the speaker mic as well, and track that way. Time align the three tracks, and you've got a killer sound, huge bottom (from the speaker mic, which requires alot of preamp gain and has only about 2 1/2 octave range roll everything off from about 125 and up) sweet overtones from teh front mic and adjsutable attack from the beater mic.

Nick,

I have read about this method, but have not tried it yet, now that I have heard from someone with a proven track record getting great results, I will put it back on top of my list of things to try.

 

What is the placement of the 4033? is it in the speaker kick, between the kicks, or in the actual kick? Have you tried all three locations, and this is what works the best.

 

Have you tried the speaker kick with a whole in the head, or just a solid head, and what is the distance between the kick and the speaker kick drum?

 

Is there a DI that works best for this, or are they all about the same?

 

Sorry for all the questions,

 

Thanks

Tim

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

HiRoller,

 

I've been a recording engineer for about 25 years now. The only way to get a good kick recorded is to "let it breath." If you bury the beater, the drum won't ring and engineers will absolutely hate you.

Unless they're an incompetent engineer or you're incompetent at tuning your drums. Then they'll hate the ring and put tape all over the drums.

[offramp]

Allen, no offense intended, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that's the ONLY way to get a good kick sound. Stewart Copeland, for example, is a great 'dugbeater' sound. Yes, I think the kick oughta breathe (like I said, I'd like to do it myself, but digging is a hard habit to break), but I also think there's validity to the other method. It's all in how you tweak it.

[DrummerCafe]

I'll have to disagree with Allan Speers ... stating that there's only one way to get the sound.

 

Although I do play as Allan suggests ... most of the time ... there is a valid reason to leave the beater on the drumhead.

 

Most engineers I know HATE having the kick drum ring; the exact opposite of what Allan is saying.

 

My thinking is that I can play much more by allowing the beater to naturally rebound. If I was in a fist fight, I wouldn't push my fist into the guy's face and leave it there; rather, I would hit and recoil so I can hit him again if need be.

 

Leaving the beater on the head means that you've got to work at getting the beater back in time for the second stroke. Since the spring is working for you, it's not as bad as it may seem, but it is definitely slower than when you strike, relax and let the rebound work for you ... just like when playing with sticks.

 

The benefit of leaving the beater on the head is that the sound seems to be more naturally compressed. The tone and impact seem to be more consistant, and I know many musicians who love it when the drummer plays this way. I can name dozens and dozens of top studio drummers who play with the beater ALWAYS planted into the kick drum batter head; Paul Leim, Nashville studio great does this ... and there are many more.

 

So my feeling is that you need to use the technique that is right for the moment and the sound you want. I've developed my playing so that I'm flexible, being able to employ the natural rebound (pulling back) or burying the beater. In either case, I always stay relaxed and only use the minimum amount of energy and pressure needed to accomplish the task.

[Allan Speers]

QUOTE: "Most engineers I know HATE having the kick drum ring; the exact opposite of what Allan is saying."

 

You're misunderstanding the term "ring." I'm not talking about a long midrange tone. That is, of course, typically dampened in various ways. I'm talking about a bit of shell resonance, which give the drum character and adds to the dynamic response. (otherwise, you might as well use a sample. -wait, I DO use samples. Hmmm....)

When the beater is held against the batter head, the shell cannot resonate completely and some character is lost. It's the same as over-damping a snare.

 

Over the years, I've worked in many top studios and for many big-name producers. Burying the beater has always been frowned upon. Maybe modern techniques have changed, I dunno...

 

I suppose that acceptable results might be obtained with the "buried" technique if you use a double-mic'ing technique, or use just one mic but near/ outside the resonant head instead of close to the batter head, but that technique was not common with the guys I worked with.

 

I can also understand how some current drummer might get away with this technique, since so much of even top-level drumtracks these days have the kick changed with Sound-Replacer. (Yes, even in Nashville.)

 

Another thing to worry about when "burying the beater" (I'm starting to enjoy that phrase!) is that often, there can actually be a double-hit. I've seen this more than once, with supposedly "top' drummers, by viewing the audio close-up in Protools. needless to say, this can make things a bit muddy.

 

But hey, whatever works for you, I guess. Maybe I'll try it myself. I suppose I could be stuck in a rut, or stuck in the past. I probably should have started my first post with, "It has been my experience that....."

 

Glad to see differeing points of view here.

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

You're misunderstanding the term "ring." I'm not talking about a long midrange tone. That is, of course, typically dampened in various ways. I'm talking about a bit of shell resonance, which give the drum character and adds to the dynamic response. (otherwise, you might as well use a sample. -wait, I DO use samples. Hmmm....)

When the beater is held against the batter head, the shell cannot resonate completely and some character is lost. It's the same as over-damping a snare.

Well, I'll disagree once again. To say that leaving the beater on the batter head is keeping the shell from vibrating is just incorrect. I know what you meant ... and I disagree.

 

Originally posted by Allan Speers:Over the years, I've worked in many top studios and for many big-name producers. Burying the beater has always been frowned upon. Maybe modern techniques have changed, I dunno...

Well, I could say the same thing as far as experience ... which is why I cited Paul Leim as someone that comes to my mind. There are numerous players that bury the beater ... Eddie Bayers is another one ... and I doubt that we could say that ALL "big-name producers" dislike the beater in the head. I'm naming just two of the top studio drummers here in Nashville; I can list more names if need be.

 

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE allowing the beater to come off the batter head. But to say that this is THE way to play, or even that the majority of professional studio drummers and producers prefer this method is just false. Unless you can cite your sources, I'm going to have to say that the techniques are equally divided.

 

The bottom line is that you have to choose the technique that is best for the music and the sound you want. If you or a producer don't like the sound of the beater planted on the batter head ... fine ... don't use that technique. But to say that it's wrong, a bad or invalid technique, or that it's simply not used by the "big time" individuals (players and producers) is just incorrect; pure opinion based on some experiential truth. You may not think you are implying all of this, but you are ... simply because you qualified your stance by mentioning your experience in the "top studios" ... as though that should seal the topic.

 

Like I said, I love playing so that the beater never stays on the drumhead. But I would never go as far as to make the deductions that Allan has.

[Allan Speers]

Bartman, chill.

 

I'm pretty sure the end of my last post says " Maybe I'll try it myself. I suppose I could be stuck in a rut, or stuck in the past."

 

-and I never said "all" top producers, just all of the ones I've worked with. To quote myself: "but that technique was not common with the guys I worked with."

 

I welcome alternate points of view, even outright corrections if I'm wrong (it happens) but please don't put words in my mouth! I'm starting to understand why GM has left.

 

Jeez......

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

Bartman, chill.

 

I'm pretty sure the end of my last post says " Maybe I'll try it myself. I suppose I could be stuck in a rut, or stuck in the past."

 

-and I never said "all" top producers, just all of the ones I've worked with. To quote myself: "but that technique was not common with the guys I worked with."

 

I welcome alternate points of view, even outright corrections if I'm wrong (it happens) but please don't put words in my mouth! I'm starting to understand why GM has left.

 

Jeez......

I'm not putting words in your mouth; sorry you think that way. You made a bold statement and I corrected you. Your original post was

I've been a recording engineer for about 25 years now. The only way to get a good kick recorded is to "let it breath." If you bury the beater, the drum won't ring and engineers will absolutely hate you. learn to do it right, it's worth it.

You qualified your stance with the "25 years" comment, then said that it was the ONLY WAY to get a good kick sound. I have a problem when someone says "only" when it's not the only way. So I challenged you and your comments. Sorry that this bothers you. I can only read what you write, apply it, then try to fully understand what you mean by it. When you said "the only way" I had to go by your words and assume that you meant that it was the only way.

 

I thought the whole purpose of posting on these forums is to discuss and debate. No need to split.

[offramp]

"When the beater is held against the batter head, the shell cannot resonate completely and some character is lost. It's the same as over-damping a snare."

 

The more I stew over the physics of this, the less convinced I am that the shell is restrained so by the head. The shell is a massive, solid object, with grain structures running in opposing directions, alternating every layer. The head is a thin film of mylar-ish substance. I'm having a difficult time envisioning the energy transfer potential of the shell being overcome by the thin mylar head. Consider, too, the variety of finishes on a drum; yes, a natural, waxed finish probably allows the drum to rseonate the best, but my sparkle-finish-wrapped 1970 Ludwig kick has been chosen over some Yamaha and Pearl kicks in the studio for its tone.

I submit that it's the beater head--what's left to resonate, after damping--is at the cause of the loss of character.

 

Try this:

 

You have a 22" kick drum. Two heads--let's say they're both coated Emperors ('cuz they're my fav )--with a nice, dense (but not huge) pillow on the bottom, touching each head equally. Now, the @ 90% of the head that's left to resonate on both sides...if beater comes off, both sides give equal amounts of resonance; beater on, and the front head has no one to respond to, sympathetically, and is left to define the sound of the kick. The contact points for each head are circumferential, of course, yet dampened at equidistant points by lug hardware...so there's the likelihood of energy transfer being compromised at that area of the kick.

Bearing edges have always been crucial to the character of a drum, but that concerns only the break edge of the head and how much self-damping occurs at the edge due to the amount of wood contacting the head. (This same principle applies to guitar bridges and nuts, too.) The sharper the edge, the more resonance you get from the head. Softer-->warmer, and quicker to dampen.

 

I'm not saying the shell has no role in the sound..not at all. What I am suggesting, though, is that given some of the above factors (contact points between head and shell, for example) that the shell hasn't quite as much to do with the character of the kick as the beater technique or head type does.

[rebonn]

It's the same as burying the drumstick on any other drum. Normally you probably wouldn't want the bass to "ring" when pulling the beater back, which you would have to set the head up right, but to me just sounds better. I mean, you don't bury the drumstick on the snare and toms do you?

You get the same effect on the bass unless you've muffled the crap out of it, then it wouldn't matter as much. It does take more effort which is probably why I sometimes bury the beater when jamming, practicing etc... but always try to release it when recording or playing out.

[Allan Speers]

Hey, bart. No hard feelings! It's just that you were responding to my FIRST post, in which I clearly overstated my position. I tried my best to conceed that and correct myself in my SECOND post, and since you posted after THAT one I was temporarily miffed. All for the main cause, which is further understanding andl the learning of new concepts. The counter-arguments, above, are definitely making me re-think some long-standing paradigms.

 

Offramp, your argument re shell resonance is a good one, but it only proposes that batter-head vibration has a minimal effect, not no effect. This may be analogius to a guitar having a stiff vs flexible neck. Or perhaps the difference in wood/ finishes on a guitar-amp's speaker cabinet. The differences are small, but still significant.

 

You raise another interesting point about the resonant head: Even with a (small) hole cut, the batter head will cause a small vibration in the resonant head, no? So that's another factor.

 

Heck, it's all academic anyway. What counts is what you hear. I'm planning on experimenting with "burying the beater" myself this weekend (just can't get enough of that phrase ) combined with some ambient mic'ing experiments. Should be interesting....

[offramp]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

Offramp, your argument re shell resonance is a good one, but it only proposes that batter-head vibration has a minimal effect, not no effect.

No. Try really re-reading my post again. I mean, REALLY read it. It took me the better part of a half-hour to write that this morning, and the thought you just returned to me is really far removed from anything I was thinking...especially the part about batter head effect. You said the shell cannot resonate if the beater is 'on'; I say, the shell hasn't much to do with it, that the front head doesn't resonate with the batter head beater 'on'. In short, it's not wheter the shell can resonate with beater 'on', but the front head.

If beater 'off', head can resonate as much as front head. Beater 'on' keeps head from vibrating in sympathy with front head.

All drums depend on moving AIR more than anything else. With a drum the size of a kick drum, the shell isn't going to matter mear as much, because the issue is volume of AIR. (This is why I pointed out my wrapped Ludwig kick was chosen over finer kick drums...it moved AIR the right way. Had nothing to do with shell resonance.)

 

You raise another interesting point about the resonant head: Even with a (small) hole cut, the batter head will cause a small vibration in the resonant head, no?

SMALL vibration? Allen...the batter head is a huge membrane; any air it pushes will be responded to, in kind, by the front head, also a huge membrane.

 

You lost me on this one.

[Allan Speers]

"You said the shell cannot resonate if the beater is 'on'"

 

No, I most definitely did NOT say that. Please read MY post again!

 

Whatever... I'm done with this one.

[offramp]

Originally posted by Allan Speers:

QUOTE: You're misunderstanding the term "ring." I'm not talking about a long midrange tone. That is, of course, typically dampened in various ways. I'm talking about a bit of shell resonance, which give the drum character and adds to the dynamic response. (otherwise, you might as well use a sample. -wait, I DO use samples. Hmmm....)

When the beater is held against the batter head, the shell cannot resonate completely and some character is lost. It's the same as over-damping a snare.

[dayvel]

I let the beater come off the head because I don't like to work too hard. If you hold the beater on the head, you're relying on the spring to bring it back and you have to set the spring tension higher, so it takes more effort just to whack the damn thing. It's just a general drumming principal; you want the sticks and the heads to do most of the work, same thing with the bass drum.

[techristian]

I set my spring tension on my OLD SPEEDKING pedals as high as I can. That helps them to spring back faster and makes a "cleaner" sound. For a different feel I can just leave the beater on the skin if I want.

 

Dan

http://www.teachmedrums.com/feet.html

[Rod Gervais]

Offramp,

 

you did to Allen what you said he did to you...... you misquoted him in the process of all this..... if you re-read his post - he stated that

 

"the shell cannot resonate completely"

 

not what you interperted, which was:

"You said the shell cannot resonate if the beater is on"

 

Tis a difference between not completely and not at all...

 

That having been said...... I do not necessarily agree with Allen on this...... as i stated earlier - i prefer a combination of the 2 - but there are people who play both ways, and who is to say right or wrong ? ...... and as far as "ring" goes...... one man's engagement is another man's friendship.......

 

tis a preference.... that's all........

 

there is no giant big book of drumming which states catagorically (sp?) that burying the beater is a cardinal sin........ or that playing open is the only way to go........

 

To the original question........

 

The advantages (or disadvantages) are numerous - or nothing - depending on the drummer's particular style......

 

I personally would feel like someone had placed a gag over my mouth and asked me to sing harmonies... i could never limit myself to either/or......... but then again - i am probably a "B" drummer at best...... so who the hell am i to say?

 

Rod

[Prof.Sound]

I know I'm late to this thread, but I thought I'd offer the following excerpt from MODERN DRUMMER, November 1990, L.A. Studio Round Table,by Robyn Flans with Jeff Porcaro, Jim Keltner,

Denny Fongheiser, Vinnie Colaiuta, Harvey Mason, Mike Baird, and Steve

Schaeffer. The entire article can be viewed here . Within the text is several accountings of all the various methods of tuning and setup these guys had to endure to create the drum sounds.

 

They also discuss the bass drum issue at hand.

 

------------------

 

RF: Let's open it up a little. Are there any questions that any of you

would like to ask each other?

 

HARVEY: Yeah, backbeats--in the studio do you guys play more in the

center of the drum or rimshots?

 

JEFF: I always hit the rim.

 

MIKE: I'd say 98% of the time it's the rim.

 

STEVE: I'd have to say more toward the center of the drum, although I

don't think I ever play directly on the center.

 

JIM: Lately I've been playing all over the drum, and when people ask me

about it, I say, "That's the way all my favorite drummers I ever

listened to play, and that's the way I like to play.

 

DENNY: 98% rimshots.

 

VINNIE: Mostly rimshots.

 

HARVEY: Far out. How about the engineers who try to ask you to play

exclusively in the center of the drum? When you're getting your sound

in the beginning, they say, "Will you hit the center of the drum?" and

then you start playing and you don't.

 

DENNY: One time this engineer came out and said, "Your snare drum

sounds horrible," and so I hit this other snare and he said, "That's

much better." I put it up, he walked back in the control room, and I

took it off and put the old one back because I really thought the other

one sounded better. So I hit the drum and said, "Is this better?" And

he said, "Man, it's so much better. I knew that was going to be the

drum."

 

HARVEY: Everyone play open drums?

 

MIKE: Pretty much. There might be little bits of padding here and

there.

 

JIM: I have two heads on the bass drum.

 

HARVEY: I've been using two heads a little bit.

 

JIM: I copy every one of these guys in this room, and all the other ones

who are not here. The other day I got to play on Vinnie's drums, and

the first think I said to the Drum Doctor after that was, "Tune me up a

set of drums just like Vinnie's, with the same head configuration," and

I like the intervals he had. I've done that with Jeff many times. That

might sound like a real chump kind of thing to do, but I can't help it.

If I like the way somebody plays, they just get into my system right

away--their sound, and the way they play.

 

HARVEY: You play flat-footed?

 

JEFF: I play with my toes.

 

JIM: I played flat-footed for years, but when I saw the way Jeff

played, I started to play like him. I noticed that Jeff played like

Gadd.

 

HARVEY: I play with my toes, but I've developed playing with my heel

down because there are certain situations where it calls for it to be so

accurate, and in order to do that, I have to put my heel down.

 

MIKE: Vinnie, you play on toe, right? And you play off the head.

 

VINNIE: I do it both ways now. If I don't play that loud, I keep my

heel down.

 

STEVE: I play both ways, but I've been playing with clogs, which

elevate my heel so that when I'm playing flat-footed, I'm kind of in a

50/50 position. The type of music usually defines the technique,

although basically I'm most comfortable playing flat-footed. It really

comes down to whatever is the most comfortable way to come up with the

sound you want.

 

MIKE: I can get more power out of playing with my foot down than I can

with my toes.

 

JEFF: Really? That's weird.

 

DENNY: Do you play out of the drum?

 

MIKE: Yeah, out of the drum.

 

JEFF: That sounds the best, when you play off the head.