Recording heads?

[Bugsy34]

I got a 12 piece Yamaha Recording Customs set in my studio, the heads are about ten years old, so I'm getting them replaced. Obviously, I haven't bought heads in a while, and was curious as to what everyone is using these days in the studio.

 

Please keep in mind, this is a 12 piece set , so I don't really want to get into the high dollar real skin heads unless they are really ALL THAT.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[Tedly Nightshade]

They are ALL THAT but you WILL have to tune them a LOT, probably more than you really want to. Although personally I'd rather tune drums than mess with compressors and EQs and all that in an attempt to get the drum heads to sound like more than they really are...

 

Lee, where are you?

[joeq]

If you have real climate control in your building you can use skin heads all the time and wonder why everyone else thinks they are a problem.

[Siberian]

There's a great tutorial on drum heads and tuning that you can download for free.

 

Go to www.drumweb.com, and scroll about half way down the page and click on "Drum Tuning Bible".

 

It will tell you more than you'll ever want to know about drum tuning and head choice. It goes into great detail about how shell material, head choice, and tuning effect the sound. It should give you a pretty good idea about what type of heads to look at based on the type of sound you are going for.

[Bugsy34]

Thanks for the replies, I don't really want to tune any more than I have to, my studio is not climate controlled. I run a Mackie d8b so I have plenty of Comps/limiters, and total recall, but constant tuning just doesn't soud like fun.

 

I will check out drumweb.com, thanks for the link.

[Tedly Nightshade]

If a Mackie d8b sounds like more fun than tuning your drums, well, what can I say... twiddle away!

 

"If you have real climate control in your building you can use skin heads all the time and wonder why everyone else thinks they are a problem."

 

This is quite true. Sometimes they are "self-tuning", and much less trouble than plastic! Sometimes not.

 

One interesting thing I've noted- on a humid day, they behave really well, set them and they stay. It's those dry dry days where they just keep climbing and climbing and you tune them (*so* tediously) with a couple swipes of a damp rag, and then at sunset they start drooping and you either turn on a handy lightbulb or reach for the tuners at last.

 

Something to be said for tuning with a towel, and rarely touching the lugs!

[djarrett]

Well, I am experimenting with some real skin heads from Earthtone. They are soaked in a climate control substance of some sorts, that keeps them from being affected by humidity.

 

There are some consistency problems, however with the heads. (thickness, collar height, etc.)

 

Unless you are an experienced drummer with lots of tuning experience, I would avoid this option.

 

Instead, I would consider Remo Powerstroke 3 heads on the top of the toms. Use ambassador clear for the bottoms. If you do not like this combination, try Remo FyberSkin heads on top. These heads most simulate the look and feel, as well as a close resemblence of the sound of real skin heads.

 

Hope this helps.

DJ

[djarrett]

By the way, ... 10 years is way too long to go between drum head changes. Drum heads are like guitar strings.

They are affected by the player, and the elements.

Imagine going 10 years without changing your guitar strings!

 

DJ

[Allan Speers]

What the heck is the tonal improvement you get from real skins?

 

Do you only use them on toms, or also on snare and kick?

[djarrett]

Allan, they are available for all drums now.

 

The benefits? Questionable. Until the late 1950's ... skin was the only way to go. Most folks think that the old warm and round tone that comes from skin ... is the only way to achieve true resonance bliss from a drum.

 

That is however, a matter of opinion.

 

It is true, although, that ... say timpani with real skin heads sound far (light years far) superior to synthetic skins.

 

But, as I mentioned above, ... there is a skill to this task. It takes alot of hit and miss learning.

 

It is not for the non-learned studio owner, or novice drummer.

 

DJ

[Tedly Nightshade]

Fiberskyn is neither here nor there- it does not in any way resemble the tone of real skin heads. If it's the flavor of plastic you like, cool- but plastic is it's own whole thing. If you go the plastic route, like 99.9% do, find whatever plastic heads sound best, forget what they look like.

 

Plastic heads sound sproingiest and fullest when they are new. Ought to be a *big* improvement after 10 years! The best tones I've heard on record from plastic, you can tell the heads are new and still elastic.

 

As for what the tonal improvement is with skins, try playing a conga with a plastic head, and then let's talk! Or with a Fiberskyn head...

But there is a decently long tradition now of plastic heads on kit drums, and most of your favorite drum sounds have been achieved that way, and with buttloads of high dollar very skilled studio processing.

 

For a rock example, Ringo's drums on Abbey Road are calfskin.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, I would personally rather spend time tuning drums than mucking around with EQ and compression later. It never quite sounds the same as when you TRULY nail the tone down at the source.

 

I haven't tried putting skin heads on my studio (Gretsch Broadkaster) drums yet, I have no real climate control in my studio. But I've gotten pretty good with the plastic stuff, and luckily have a drummer who knows how to tune also!

 

I favor Remo PowerStroke 3 heads on the kick drum, Evans Genera on the snare (I like the vented type, it has tiny pinholes around the head to make the sound slightly drier without losing any of the "crack").

 

I've been using Aquarian heads on my toms, and basically like them, but I'm not sure they're the ideal head for MY toms. Then again I like the toms to be very open and ring quite a bit, and a lot of folks don't when recording. The Gretsch toms are fantastically solid and don't produce unwanted overtones, no need to damp them so I just might end up going with clear Ambassador heads or some such thing.

[offramp]

Originally posted by Bugsy34:

I don't really want to tune any more than I have to... constant tuning just doesn't soud like fun.

Seems to me you could start by losing a few drums; that'd ensure less tuning. Make it, oh, a FIVE piece kit instead of twelve?

 

I use Remo Coated Emperors. They've never let me down.

[Bugsy34]

Where to start?

 

I have dropped the kit size to a 10,12,13,14, mounted tom 16 floor,one kick with a double peddle, mostly because when a band comes in and the drummer sits down behind my 12 piece,(electronics not included), all of a sudden, they can't play anymore. Its like watching a kid in a candy store. So for that reason, I narrowed it down to the drums that I feel I can get by with. I hate to only buy heads for those drums though, in case someone does want to use the whole kit.

 

I am an experianced drummer and know how to tune, I just hate doing it.

 

The reason I haven't bought heads in so long, is that I have been buying and building my studio, I pay cash for eveything, and it takes time to put together that kind of dough. (Mackie d8b, HDR, Remote 48, 2 sets of Tanoy monitors, one set of JBLs, DATs, CD recorders ,computers, keyboards, ect. ect.

 

Now that the studio is basicaly finished, I'm back to getting good tones on the drums again.

 

D.J. My kit only has top heads, except the floor tom.

 

I went with some Evens for the toms for now, and an Aquarius for the top head on one of my snares. I will work with these for a while, then probably try somthing else. I may eventualy try the real skins, not sure.

 

Alot of good information here though, I sure would like to thank everyone for chiming in.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[Tedly Nightshade]

Lee knows of what she speaks.

 

I would view your massive collection of toms as something not to use all at once, but as options for making various 4 or 5 piece kits. If the tom's too big, grab another one and try it.

 

Toms are a novelty, really. Most of the work gets done between the bass and snare- that's 2 pieces.

[Bugsy34]

Toms are a novelty, really. Most of the work gets done between the bass and snare- that's 2 pieces.

I beleive Neil Pert, Mike Portnoy, Alex Van Halen, and myself would tend to disagree with that statement.

 

Actually, I think it has been many years since a tom was considered a novelty. Alot of it depends on a persons style of playing, and also the type of music being played. As a matter of fact, I can't think of one song off the top of my head that doesn't have multiple toms in it.

 

Take a look at Steve Smith, he could easily play an entire song on just a Hihat, would he? No, I don't think so, boring!. Toms have been incorporated into many differant parts of music these days, they are not just for fills any more.

Phil Collins (I Don't Care Anymore)

Journey (Seperated Worlds Apart)

 

List goes on and on. I think Toms are a very important part of music. Just my opinion.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[Prof.Sound]

Originally posted by Bugsy34:

I got a 12 piece Yamaha Recording Customs set in my studio, the heads are about ten years old, so I'm getting them replaced. Obviously, I haven't bought heads in a while, and was curious as to what everyone is using these days in the studio.

Lets see, RCustom, ten years, no new heads. Before I recommend something, it would appear you like a rather muted tone? As opposed to open with lots of sustain? Something with lots of attack/punch?

[Bugsy34]

Lets see, RCustom, ten years, no new heads. Before I recommend something, it would appear you like a rather muted tone? As opposed to open with lots of sustain? Something with lots of attack/punch?

You are right on the money! The old Deep Purple sound is about where I would like to be. Nice Call.

 

I have been triggering my kit with an Alesis DM Pro for the last five years to hold me over, so I wasn't worried about their tone qualities. Now that I have plenty of mics and gates, I want to record them naturaly.

 

The Evens heads I just bought sound pretty darn good, but I will probably try a few differant brands till I find the ones that really hit the spot.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[freelance]

Since I've been playing drums since the 50's I have had hands on with "real skins" and candidly, they were a pain in the ass.

 

Sometimes fond memories are selective - we remember the good (warmer tone) but not the bad (uneven tone, tuning nightmare, little projection, etc).

 

I would never want to deal with skins again. However, the Aquarian Vintage (or American Vintag - for newer shells)come as close as I've found to that "skin sound". They don't have quite as much of the "plastic attack" sound that you get from G2's, Pinstripes, etc.) They project better than skin (and certainly tune better - and hold a tune better) than skins.

[Tedly Nightshade]

A lot of times doing things well is a pain in the ass. Symphony orchestras are *such* a pain in the ass...

 

My ideas on calf are based on daily use, not memories.

 

" Now that I have plenty of mics and gates, I want to record them naturaly. "

 

Lee will laugh at this one too! Nothing remotely natural about using many mics, and nothing at all natural about gates. You must mean "normally", not naturally.

[where02190]

No piece of technology is going to fix a poorly tuned kit. It all starts with the acousitcs of the sounds, and if the kit sounds like crap acoustically ti will sound like crap on the recording too.

 

If you don't know how to tune, learn, if you can't, then your dumming talent is limited, find a good tech that can. There are three keys to a good drum sound; a good player, a good room, and a well tuned kit. Take away any one of these three and the sound will be medeocre at best.

 

HEads are like monitors, everyone has their favs. Personally I like coated ambassadors. Play what feels good to you...and shame on you for not changing your heads regularly.

 

You'll need to do more than change heads to get your kit back in shape. Run some soft steel wool over the shell edges, and on the rims as wellto clear off any debris, dirt and mold buildup. Lube all your lugs with good quality grease. Plan on a day for a kit that size. Stretch all the heads after putting them on to finger tightness with an open palm in the middle of the ehad and your body weight. Do this several times for each head. Change all the heads, top and bottom. Do the bottoms first, get tem tuned, then put the top heads on, find the drums voice and tune to that.(listen to the resonance of the shell, it's usually an interval with that that works best.)

 

Take your time, do it right, and don't wait another 10 years to do it again.

[Bugsy34]

Nick,

 

No piece of technology is going to fix a poorly tuned kit. It all starts with the acousitcs of the sounds, and if the kit sounds like crap acoustically ti will sound like crap on the recording too.

I did not say I was trying to cover up a poorly tuned set of drums. Please read my posts again!

 

If you don't know how to tune, learn, if you can't, then your dumming talent is limited, find a good tech that can.

I clearly stated that I know how to tune drums, but that I don't care to do it enough to warrant the purchase of calfskins!

 

and shame on you for not changing your heads regularly.

I believe this issue was clarified also in the fact that I was triggering the drums with A DM Pro While I was buying and building my studio.

 

Do the bottoms first, get tem tuned, then put the top heads on, find the drums voice and tune to that.(listen to the resonance of the shell, it's usually an interval with that that works best.)

 

Take your time, do it right, and don't wait another 10 years to do it again.

Also posted that these drums only have top heads!

 

I appreciate the suggestions, but wonder about the validity of them knowing that my posts were not even read!

 

TED,

 

Lee will laugh at this one too! Nothing remotely natural about using many mics, and nothing at all natural about gates. You must mean "normally", not naturally

Actually Ted, there is nothing NATURAL about recording at all! If you think about it.

You are SO correct, I meant normally. So go ahead and have a good laugh on me. Perhaps you can just point me to the NEWBIE forum!

 

I know how to tune drums, I have played nearly all of my life. I was merely trying to find out what the trend in drum heads are these days.

 

The fact that I have not replaced my heads in ten years really has no relevence on my knowledge of drums, only the fact that my priorities have been elsewhere, which by the way is where you will find me!

 

Thanks to all of those who posted answers to the actual question I asked without acting as though they got to the top of the ladder without actually climbing it.

 

By the way, how many mics does it take to mic a 12 piece kit?

 

Lee will laugh at this one too! Nothing remotely natural about using many mics

Never Mind

[Tedly Nightshade]

Natural is a relative thing. Lee and I both have this thing for drum sounds that sound like the drum kit does in the room- one way of striving for natural, that elusive goal.

 

"Thanks to all of those who posted answers to the actual question I asked without acting as though they got to the top of the ladder without actually climbing it.

By the way, how many mics does it take to mic a 12 piece kit?"

 

I climbed a pretty steep ladder too, good point- I just never did it by finding out what the latest trend was. I've never actually been to the place where I put more than 3 mics on a drum kit on purpose.

 

1 mic will do for a 12 piece kit, if it is the right mic and the room and kit sound good. A mic for the bass drum or bass drums is the first thing to add, in most cases, although if they really sound big (or you want to represent how they really do sound), a single omni (or stereo if you like) on the kit will capture that. The sense of actual space and depth is the main argument for using less mics. "the modern sound" or a bad room are good reasons to use mics all over the damn place, although all kinds of phase problems will occur, and the off-axis mud of each mic (probably none to good, if you can afford a bunch of them) will be added to the picture as many times as there are mics.

 

The use of gates is especially suspect- they will mask the phase and bleed problems until the drum is hit- so it will sound fine as long as nobody hits any of the drums. Certain strange modern sounds depend on gates- if that's what you want, gate away. These sounds could not be described as natural, but that's not what everyone wants, clearly.

 

And I doubt you want to mess with calfskin heads.

 

The room is the hardest part- good luck with that.

[Bugsy34]

1 mic will do for a 12 piece kit, if it is the right mic and the room and kit sound good. A mic for the bass drum or bass drums is the first thing to add, in most cases, although if they really sound big (or you want to represent how they really do sound), a single omni (or stereo if you like) on the kit will capture that. The sense of actual space and depth is the main argument for using less mics. "the modern sound" or a bad room are good reasons to use mics all over the damn place, although all kinds of phase problems will occur, and the off-axis mud of each mic (probably none to good, if you can afford a bunch of them) will be added to the picture as many times as there are mics.

This is interesting Ted, but I don't think I'm up to that level, nor do I understand how you would achieve depth with only one mic. If I had achieved building a room in which the accoustics were perfect enough to use only one mic, I still don't believe I would only use one mic. I would, however, be interested to know what mic you think can perfectly capture the entire range of a drum kit.

 

The sense of actual space and depth is the main argument for using less mics. "the modern sound" or a bad room are good reasons to use mics all over the damn place,

Did I mention my room is less than perfect?

Lets face it, I'm on a very limited budget, I pay cash for everything I buy in the studio, including the studio, and that money only comes after food is put on the table. I'm not, nor do I ever intend to be a huge recording facility, I do this mainly for myself, and to help out a few friends here and there, if I make a little money along the way, thats great, but I like it that way.

 

although all kinds of phase problems will occur, and the off-axis mud of each mic (probably none to good, if you can afford a bunch of them) will be added to the picture as many times as there are mics.

Phase problems can be resolved, phase switches and mic placement can solve most of that. As far as mud from mics, your right, and I'll have to deal with that the best I can. I have some very nice mics on my list (mostly dream list) but the ones I use are worthy of the studio I have. AT 4033,Octava 319s Octava 219s SM57s AKG 3700s, Marshal MXLV67, ect. I don't have any avalons, or Manleys, mic pres and processors are farther down on list. Who wouldn't want a Neumann Solution D?, but ya don't park a Rolls Royce in front of a $30,000 house now do ya?

 

The way I see to capture the kit the way it sounds (not the room) is with multiple mics, one per tom just above the head to eliminate as much bleed as posible, one over and one under the snare (watch for phasing) one on ,( or should I say almost inside) the kick, a pair of overheads, and yes I will even use one on each hi hat, these will all be gated to only come on when needed and only be added to the mix to enhance what the Room mics are lacking in, and will also be mixed for depth, or to fatten up the mix. The room mics will not be gated (need some air in the recording) and placed where ever I can get the best overall sound out of my room.

 

Does this sound natural? Probably not to you, but its what I will end up working with as I don't have the room or equipment to make it sound good with one mic.

 

I have heard people getting great results with the three mic setup, but once again, this is not going to happen in my room

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[where02190]

I'd start with between 3 and 5:

Overheads: My fav is a Shure VP-88 stereo mic, or a pair of AKG 414's. The most important mics on the kit. Change mics, position, preamps, etc,. to achieve a full kit sound from these (either mono or stero) mics.

 

Room.: I like a rode NTK or AKG C4000B or 414 in omni. Second most important. no matter what yhour room sounds like, the sound of your drums is dependant on the room sound. gie depth and dimension to your sound.

 

Kick: I like the Shure beta 52 or an Audio Technica 4033a here. I prefer not to stuff the mic inside the drum, but keep the diaphram about even with the front head if it's got a hole, and if not I generally put the mic 2-3 feet from the drums front head and mic the beater side with a 57.

 

Snare: SM57, sometimes an Audio technica 4041 SD condensor if I need a bit more transients.

 

BTW, I did read your post, twice, I was merely offering some alternative suggestions, but now obviously you don't really care to expand your mind, so just keep it closed dude. In fact, don't even bother to continue reading anything else posted in this forum. Just tape the hell out of your 10 yr old heads put 47 mics on them so there is complete phase cancellation and be done with it.

 

FWIW I'm still climbing the ladder after 25 years...the day I stop climbing is the day I die.

[Bugsy34]

Nick,

 

BTW, I did read your post, twice, I was merely offering some alternative suggestions, but now obviously you don't really care to expand your mind, so just keep it closed dude. In fact, don't even bother to continue reading anything else posted in this forum. Just tape the hell out of your 10 yr old heads put 47 mics on them so there is complete phase cancellation and be done with it.

Wow! did I make a left turn in albequerque?

 

This thread was started by me trying to find out if there was any hot new heads on the market that everyone was using these days. I'm not sure how it got so out in left field.

 

I have gotton some of the best advice ever from a friend of mine on the Mackie forum about HDRs, in fact, I am positive that any question I have will be answered by him without regaurds to his time or other comitments. I concider him to be "the HDR GURU". Thanks Nick

 

Now, I was so blown away by how you answered my question on here, it is not like you at all.

Both of your posts, are great advice for someone, but given that I had stated the reason for my actions, and the state of my finaces, they can't help me, at this time. I will keep them in my little book of knowledge, and some day when I have those mics, I will give them a try. Thank you again.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Good luck Bugsy! Mic placement is free- go for it.

[where02190]

Bugsy, no offense intended, simply expressing my opinion on how to approach the general subject. I also put in some advise on what I like for heads, however noting that like so many things in music, it really is a matter of personal taste.

[Prof.Sound]

Originally posted by Bugsy34:

You are right on the money! The old Deep Purple sound is about where I would like to be. Nice Call.

 

The Evens heads I just bought sound pretty darn good, but I will probably try a few differant brands till I find the ones that really hit the spot.

 

Thanks Tim

Sorry for the delay in responding, had to leave town on an emergency issue.

 

For RC's, I would tell you to try either the Aquarian PerformanceII or REMO Ebony or clear Pinstripe as a batter head. These seem to work really well on that kit. In both cases use the REMO Suede clear ambassador weight as the resonant head.

 

Tune the resonant side loose but where it has no buzz. Repeat the procedure with the batter side and to raise pitch, try to work more with the resonant side than the batter. This will give you that thick fat sound you seek.

 

It should be noted, I played that style for years and you can achieve the same sound with simple Ambassador weight coated heads. The key is more the vintage of the drum than the head, Older drums from that era did not have sharp and precise bearing edges, so the tone was naturally muted.

 

The RCs are very heavy thick shelled drums with good edges and simple coated ambassadors top and bottom also work real well, but they may have more tone to them them and less stick attack sound. One problem with 2 plies is they tend to stretch out and keeping them tuned low w/o buzzing becomes hard over time due to uneven stretch between the two layers. You don;t go through them as easy, but over time, your pitch will have to raise. Single ply heads are more forgiving in that respect.

 

To kill off resonance with the Ambassador weight, the new Suede series helps quite a bit, especially is you detune one lug a bit and change the phase relationship between the batter and resonant.

 

Personally, while I respect the other opinions, I think calf skins would be a wrong choice for your desires.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Personally, while I respect the other opinions, I think calf skins would be a wrong choice for your desires.

I think so too.