Vincepro Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I'm a hiphop producer programming my drums on a MPC drum machine. My question has to do with the placement of the kick and the snare in rap songs. I understand sometimes you want to delay the kick and delay the snare to the last possible second to have a laid back swing feel. Also, sometimes you want to play the snare as early as possible to make the beat sound like it's pushing forward. Is there ever a time you want to play the kick as early as possible or no? How about play the kick as late as possible and the snare as early as possible? Also, should the spacing between the snare hit always be the same or are there times where you play the snare hit as early as possible in one measure and then as late as possible in the next etc.? ANy other advice on drum programming for hiphop would be appreciated.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmee Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 i think you're talking about pocket effects directly, in which case your bass voice is going to play a huge part in the process as it's relation to both the snare and kick are going to be paramount in pulling off the feel issues you raise. generally you have the right idea in terms of the concept at play, but again, the space in between your bass and kick are more often going to pull this off than, just a good drum note placement in itself. the last minute suck that you so often hear in ensembles with a great pocket going is exactly this, the space in between the basses full tone interacting with the laid back or up front kick all dressed around the feel mechanic, eg a funk tripolet. indeed, a good bass player can change the feel of the drum track completely by changing up their own feel in relation to the drums - or by making a dirty drummer sound clean by constantly adjusting. my 2cents anyway, hope something there makes sense. --_ ______________ _ "Self-awareness is the key to your upheaval from mediocrity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincepro Posted September 7, 2003 Author Share Posted September 7, 2003 THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! This is a huge help. Now I'm realizing that it's not just the timing of the drums that affect the groove of the track but the bass. So in a hiphop track that doesn't have bass, can the way the other instruments are played have a huge affect on the groove or pocket? Thanks...DRUMMERS..please give me your opinions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musa Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 peace, there's no rule but swing! listen to your favorite producers. what's the difference beetween the dre feel and timbaland's, for example. for a real drummer one of the deepest pocket is when you play the bass drum right on time and pull the snare back (omar hakim, for one, does this a lot). exercising with shiftin the beat placement will show you how you can make the same pattern going from a pushing salsa feel to a laid back one-drop reggae groove. in all musics of african origin (including hip-hop, of course) dance is crucial. the ultimate test to your beat would be: does it make people want to dance! mess around with as many styles as possible because you will see there's so many different ways to interprete the same beat. enjoy your work. one love, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincepro Posted September 9, 2003 Author Share Posted September 9, 2003 Thanks for the advice Musa...when you say play the kick on time and pull the snare back you mean shift it later correct? Is it rare in hiphop for The kick and snare to be right on time and then swing the instruments around it? does this technique work or are the drums almost always required to shift a lil in order to get the swing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 I find that a good amount of swing can be had from layering two different beats. I usually opt for dead tight on the main beat. I tend to shift the rest of the components around the beat. One great way is to use drum machine sounds layered with real drum sounds. The real drum sounds tend to have more decay and drag on longer than the synthetic hits. I find this adds some stretch to things. I would have to agree with the comment that feel is the most important thing. Does it sound good and make you move? If so, the timeline or tempo grid doesn't matter. I do tend to slip a 64th note triplet space in between measures if a sequence seems to rigid. This doesn't always work, though. When doing hip hop beats, I don't think the rules are even close to being set. This is still a young genre. Go for what sounds cool and feels good. Keep shifting things around like you are doing, but then judge the results by ear. Try a demo of Acid, too. I bet you'd like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmee Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 practice/experiementation tip: assuming you have mutlitracking capabilities - put two different feels against each other, and listen carefully to the difference. try to make both simple so they aren't too complicated against each other, or ones that ideally leave a lot of room in between so you can really hear what's going on. you can do this with preprogrammed beats from a drum box vs a sequenced keyboard part of a combination on your keyboard or something. but do it so that each feel is being handled by a completely different set of voices - so they are distinct, and you can really hear the difference. try putting a funk bassline over a straight rock feel. do it a couple times, and notice how if you trigger it live, that unless you really have a drummer's sense of execution - that each time it will sound slightly different in terms of feel, as you slightly inaccurately kick off the sequenced part against the rest. in this you will immediately recognize the difference between the swing feel of the funk tripolet, and the straight feel of rock, but rather than seeing that difference in your mind as a mathematical equation, it will be a distinct sound pattern. the variations made in error will reveal quickly how such a slight difference in note placement can extrapolate out into a feel that is totally different each time. these can be an eye opening experience in how time is shaped completely differently depending on feel and *execution*, especially if you can play along to it in all of the voices - so you can feel what the drummer does, in relation to the bass line, and vice versa, so you can see how the bass player is manuevering around the drummer. g'luck. --_ ______________ _ "Self-awareness is the key to your upheaval from mediocrity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Sweet Willie_ Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Originally posted by musa: listen to your favorite producers. what's the difference beetween the dre feel and timbaland's, for example. Listen, listen, listen. We can give you suggestions, but you really need to listen to a variety of hip-hop artists to figure out what will work and hear the variety of feels available to you. As a bass player, I'd say, like others already have, that the interaction between the bass and drums will give you different flavors. Some suggestions would be to check out artists from different time periods. Here's a very small sampling -- Run DMC Public Enemy A Tribe Called Quest ("the boom, the bip, the boom-bip") De La Soul NWA Dr. Dre The Roots (the interaction between drummer, ?love, and bassist, Hub) Outkast (Preston Crump on bass) Talib Kweli Mos Def You might also want to check out some of the Lyricists' Lounge compilations. Peace. spreadluv Fanboy? Why, yes! Nordstrand Pickups and Guitars. Messiaen knew how to parlay the funk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stranger Posted September 9, 2003 Share Posted September 9, 2003 Originally posted by Vincepro: I'm a hiphop producer programming my drums on a MPC drum machine. My question has to do with the placement of the kick and the snare in rap songs. I understand sometimes you want to delay the kick and delay the snare to the last possible second to have a laid back swing feel. Also, sometimes you want to play the snare as early as possible to make the beat sound like it's pushing forward. Is there ever a time you want to play the kick as early as possible or no? How about play the kick as late as possible and the snare as early as possible? Also, should the spacing between the snare hit always be the same or are there times where you play the snare hit as early as possible in one measure and then as late as possible in the next etc.? ANy other advice on drum programming for hiphop would be appreciated..Reading this again makes me think you are on the right track, already. Do ten different version trying the various ideas you suggested. Then listen to them all for a while and you will be surely able to decide which is the keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincepro Posted September 9, 2003 Author Share Posted September 9, 2003 Thanks so much for the responses guys...The reason why I asked the specific questions regarding snare and kick placement is because I thought it was possible that a tiny tiny shift in a kick or snare placement, so small that I can't recognize it when listening to it,was affecting the entire groove of a song. If all swing is immediately recognizable upon listening to it, then I don't have a problem at all. A lot of times if I have only a drum track playing, once I had some instruments, the feel of the drums change. So is there a time where you want the kick to come in a lil early? I doubt it..how about a late kick and an early snare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRi Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 i think the best thing is you have an MPC for this line of thought. what better hands on hiphop approach is there? as for thinking about tiny incremental placements... well yes and no. dont ever forget that the rythm doesnt exist outside of the track in hiphop, in other words the "beat" is inclusive of stabs, key lines and samples. thats why a track minus the vocals is still called a Beat, music and all. its an amazing thing about music, and hiphop minimalism, at how a few stabs and samples can alter the entire groove of a track. seeing as youre already on your way in terms of your method, the next step id recommend is putting more practice into your theories. get a 4 bar groove down and copy that out so its a 16 bar groove. im not sure how you use the MPC but in this case put your kick, hats and snare on different Tracks. now copy some of those tracks, and push the snare and kick around tiny increments. now experiment in the Mute/Unmute, so basically youve got your solid groove, and youre switching between the straight up one and bits of the "experiment" what i think you will find is its good to keep it pretty straight up and let the flow move on the 4th bar, or 8th, and particularly the 16th. not the PROGRAMMING, ie not a different drum groove, but using the same one with almost-imperceptible timing differences. this is why i still love to use my mpc's to play in a drum track on slower material, where i wont play 2 or 4 bars, but 16. gives more room for "human feel" oh and respect for anyone who takes their hiphop drums as an art. too many kids making ZZzzzzz beats and trying to be dre. not enough crate diggers with a passion for the rich history/pedagogy of the culture. http://analogik.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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