Convincing my drummer... (sort of a rant)

[Rik]

I guess this is best asked of drummers, as I figure I'll just get smartass answers or war stories from my fellow bassists

 

I'm the bassist/lead vocalist in a 3-piece rock combo. We focus mostly on rock from the 80s to the present, with a few older songs tossed in to pad out the set list. My guitarist is 32, I'm 37; my drummer is a bit older at 45.

 

The problem is sort of a combination of my drummer's drums, and his musical background.

 

He's heavily into jazz, but is also familiar with quite a bit of "classic" rock (60s-70s and a bit of 80s). His drums are set up accordingly, which is the main problem here. It's the way he has the drums tuned.

 

He has one of the biggest kick drums I've ever seen. I'd almost swear it's 22", but may be only 20". Bigger than the kicks used by the other drummers I've seen around town. No muffling, and a head on both sides of the drum with no hole cut in the front, and he uses those Remo synthskin(?) heads on it. The ones that look like calfskin, I think. So what happens is his kick drum sounds like it belongs in a marching band. BOOM BOOM BOOM! Lots or reverberation and slow decay. Not only is it incredibly loud, but the tone seriously interferes with my bass guitar frequencies. The guitarist and I, as well as a sound man, tried to explain that most "modern" rock calls for a kick drum that goes "THUD" instead of "BOOM", but to no avail.

 

His toms "ring" instead of "pop". The floor tom sounds like a tympani.

 

His snare is a "vintage" (from the 50s, I think) maple-shell Ludwig that, again, is the loudest freakin' snare I've ever heard.

 

He uses Zildjian 18" "Heavy Crash" cymbals. In fact, he uses four cymbals - a pair of 18" Heavy Crash and a pair of 18" Medium Crash. And, like his kick and his toms, they all have a very slow decay. The guitarist and I will celebrate the day our drummer buys, say, a 12" Thin Crash... The drummer likes to use the Heavy Crash cymbals as ride cymbals, and does this far more often than he uses his high-hat.

 

Top all this off with the fact that he is a well-muscled carpenter. He pounds the living cr*p out of his kit.

 

All that said, he is a very good drummer

 

So here's why all this is a problem:

 

- As I mentioned earlier, his boomy kick occupies the same sonic space that my bass is supposed to be filling, and interferes with it. The kick is actually producing a tone, rather than an accent. Since that tone is rarely the same note I'm playing on my bass, it makes it difficult to find the right note to sing.

 

- The snare sounds like a gun going off next to my head.

 

- The Heavy Crash that he likes to use as a ride is right next to my right ear (small stages, ya know). By the time the gig is over, I feel like my ear is bleeding.

 

- I can't hear myself sing unless we turn my monitor up so loud that it's painful.

 

- I can't hear the guitarist, and he can't hear me. The guitarist has a loud Marshall half-stack, and I've got a fairly powerful bass amp that I stand directly in front of. To keep the drums from completely burying us, we have to turn up so loud that a lot of people don't want to dance because the FOH volume is so high. And with my bass turned up so high, my drink keeps falling over.

 

I've played with this drummer in other situations (church, specifically), and I've found that he has a certain personality type that makes him take suggestions as personal attacks and criticism of his drumming.

 

We don't want to fire him, because he is a very good friend. He's one of those guys who will do anything for you. Well, except modify his drumming style... Besides, we already fired him once, because he wasn't learning the songs (he was too concerned with trying to duplicate all the licks perfectly, rather than concentrating on getting the song structures down first; also, every time he talked about his private practice, it was always "snare practice" or "cymbal practice" - all well and good, but it doesn't help to learn the songs.) After we fired him, we found out later that he got so depressed that he didn't even touch his drums for a month; in the meantime, his roommate filled the garage with stuff, which effectively eliminated our rehearsal space once we brought him back into the band (his replacement didn't work out at all). And we really felt rotten about firing him in the first place. He did finally see our point about learning the song first and working out the precise licks later, though.

 

So I guess I'm asking for some insight into the "drummer mentality". Are there ways to "encourage" my drummer to accept our suggestions, without offending him or hurting his feelings? When it comes down to it, it seems to be the drums themselves that are the problem, as I've been on stage with other drummers who played just as hard without being so loud.

 

Aside from suggesting that he buy a whole new kit (he's financially unable right now), can you guys offer any suggestions on ways we can get him to maybe modify his drums so they have a more suitable sound at a somewhat lower volume?

 

Thanks

[djarrett]

Well, I think you must keep in mind that you are going to get a plethera of opinions here! Some good and some not so good.

 

I have always felt like a band is the same philosphy as a football team, or a marriage.

 

Everyone must in in accord when it comes to the team effort.

 

Sounds like your drummer has John Bonham-itis. Big open drums. Boomy toms. 22" kick is a standard size bass drum, so I would imagine that your drummer has a 24" or perhaps even a 26" (which was a bonham preference).

 

You are correct. Big open toms do not lend themselves to today's micing techniques. This can cause all sorts of problems. Gating was developed due to this problem. Drummers hated the "gating" from the sound system, so heads were developed to squelch the unwanted overtones. Emperor, Pinstripe, Coated Emperor, and Powerstroke heads from Remo, as well as the Hydraulic heads from Evans were the first heads developed to allow the drummer to play without as much gating used in the PA.

 

Your drummer really has two choices. Either work with you guys to perfect his drum sound and volume so that it works for the group, ... or find another group!

 

It really comes down to that.

 

Your delivery of this message to the drummer can make or break the outcome. Drummers by musician standards are egomaniacs (no, I am not flaming us drummers ... remember, ... drummers think the same of other musicians!). Remember ... you can catch more with honey, ... than with vinegar! Take him out for a drink or dinner. Explain the concerns. Don't bash him, praise his playing ability. At the same time find other areas to address as well. Perhaps find a list of things to discuss about each member of the band. Areas that have potental for improvement. This way, it does not look like you are targeting the drummer.

 

Keep us posted and good luck.

 

DJ

[Rik]

Well, I think you must keep in mind that you are going to get a plethera of opinions here! Some good and some not so good.

Yeah, I expect that. And of course, none you guys know my drummer, so I expect responses to be kind of generalized. I figure I can try to apply the suggestions that might be most effective with this particular drummer

 

Everyone must in in accord when it comes to the team effort.

I agree with that. I've also heard that friendship has wrecked a lot of bands, because people don't like to can a guy they like a lot, and it ends up hurting the music. So we're trying to find a balance. When the three of us get a song nailed, we sound very good, and actually play very well together. So this volume and tone thing is the only real problem.

 

Sounds like your drummer has John Bonham-itis.

Now that you mention it, he does talk about Bonham a lot...

 

I should mention that my own preference in drum tone is heavily influenced by Neil Peart's sound. I like tight and crisp sounds, with the "boomy" sounds used more for texture and effect Crash cymbals that go "crash" and then die out, rather than a crash on the downbeat that is still ringing three bars later.

 

Big open toms do not lend themselves to today's micing techniques.

Actually, we stopped micing the drums, and he's still too loud (and our gigs are usually in smallish clubs). But yes, he has open toms. When we were micing him, it was usuallya 3-mic arrangement: kick drum, in the space between the hat, snare and mounted tom, and in the space between the floor tom and right-side cymbals. So no mics directly pointed into toms.

 

I wonder if it simply isn't as loud behind the kit as it is in front of it, and so he honestly doesn't realize how he sounds. Is that possible?

[djarrett]

Oh, for sure, and the fact that most of us drummers are half deaf to high pitch sound.

 

I would suggest that if he cannot tone down the playing to fit the venue, that you may have to opt to a drum shield ... which he is not going to like! The suggestion of this might get the message across.

 

I use two auralex panels that float on regular mic stands (see: www.auralex.com)

 

These greatly help muffle the projection ... even when placed behind the kit.

 

Hope any of this helps.

 

DJ

[Tedly Nightshade]

Now that's my kind of drummer! As a bassist, think of it this way- you have an opportunity to learn from this, or just complain he's not like every other meathead with dead drums.

 

I use a 28" or 32" calfskin bass drum, wide open, and the keyboard bassist has no trouble working with it, although both instruments go clear down to 30 cycles and below, and she's not anywhere as dextrous as an electric bass guitar can be. I don't remember John Paul Jones having a problem either, or at least none he didn't solve!

 

You can be unique, or kill what's rare trying to get your drummer to sound like everyone else. That would be a shame.

 

It could be useful to record the band and all listen together more objectively to the results. You might learn something.

[Tedly Nightshade]

The heavy cymbals thing is a problem. That's one of the things a recording might show.

[Rik]

Well, the "tone" problem is secondary to the volume problem.

[coyote]

What really cracks me up is how all the drum manufacturers spend so much time & effort selling you 'free-floating' drums that resonate forever - and then we go and deaden them as much as we can. Shows just how backward the drumming community can sometimes be. The guitar amp manufacturers tried to eliminate distortion in the 60s - by the mid-70s they **got it** that guitarists WANT that distortion!

 

When will manufacturers finally design an acoustic drumkit that, right out of the box, will both sound good AND work well with microphones?

 

Originally posted by djarrett:

Big open toms do not lend themselves to today's micing techniques. This can cause all sorts of problems. Gating was developed due to this problem. Drummers hated the "gating" from the sound system, so heads were developed to squelch the unwanted overtones. Emperor, Pinstripe, Coated Emperor, and Powerstroke heads from Remo, as well as the Hydraulic heads from Evans were the first heads developed to allow the drummer to play without as much gating used in the PA.DJ

[Tedly Nightshade]

The problem is today's micing techniques, not open full sounding toms. Listen to When the Levee Breaks and *then* we'll talk about today's micing techniques... consider this fair warning...

[schmee]

ted, you are the man. i've not been following your posts up till now - i will seek them from now on.

 

because i agree whole heartedly with your important points.

 

as for trying to approach the drummer mentality on issues that do not want approaching - might i suggest putting a bass in his hands?

 

seriously, trick him into checking it out by teaching him how to play some simple percussive techniques, eg slap.

 

get him to learn a song out of key with his kick and when he gets to his first whole note, give it a good downbeat stroke.

 

or, if you have a multitracking capability, the answer is simple: record yourselves, and drop out his drum tracks so he can hear all that crazy stuff he hasn't yet heard. point it out to him.

 

or perhaps, play paradiddles on his crashes someday until it drives him so mad he asks you to stop but realises he can't shout that loud?

 

if i was a bonham head - and i am - talking to me about your appreciation for neal pert would only strengthen my resolve.

 

if you could find a way to expose him to a culture that threatened his sense of male ego wrapped up in the bonham connundrum, you might find he comes back a bit, but at 45, i doubt if he'd even get wind of it, nor care.

 

the last thing i can think of is prolly the only practical one: give him opportunites to showcase his power abilities, by creating/playing tunes which rely on dynamics which have the ensemble playing very softly with loud flourishes/climax.

 

i'm sure you already do, but seriously, find ways to force him to play soft enough to hear all that gets drowned out.

 

anyway, just trying to help - sounds like a great group of people, i hope you can find a solution. and i agree with ted's prodding that if you can overcome his deviation, rather than snuff it out to meet the expected norms, you may find yourself with something even more special.

 

me thinks there's some serious wisdom in that idea.

 

g'luck.

[djarrett]

Hey, Don't get me wrong guys!

 

THE BEST drum sound I ever heard was drums recorded with two overhead mics ... and the drums were set up in a tiled bathroom!

 

They were wide open and the sound was wide open, ... but the result was fantastic.

 

What I am trying to resolve for the Rik is the situation whereby they can all work together in harmony.

 

DJ

[Lee Flier]

Sometimes the chemistry just doesn't work. I'm a guitar player who is crazy about drums, but if I got in a room with a drummer who sounded like Neil Peart I'd wanna hurl, whereas I'd love a big Bonham sound. I don't think it's ego that makes your drummer sound like he does or not want to listen to you, it's probably just his personal taste and you really don't have the right to dictate that to him. It's what gets him off. If you want a Peart sound find a drummer who already has and likes that kind of sound. Otherwise neither of you will ever likely be very happy, you will come off like a jerk for "telling him what to do" and he will come off like a jerk for "not listening" or "not being a team player," and probably neither of you will get exactly the sound you want. Neither of you are really being jerks, you just have different tastes and should be working with people who can foster your strengths, not water them down. Just my .02.

 

And yes, I agree with Ted and schmee that it's silly in general to try to make drums sound like something they're not. Drums and cymbals are loud, and resonant. All these engineers who dampen everything are just goofy to me. What REALLY cracks me up is the ones who dampen everything and then replace the resulting crappy sound with samples.

[Rande Stroup]

As a drummer from the 60s, I say work with this dude. Hell, Neil peart blew his audition with Rush but things worked out. My suggestion if you need a softer sound out of this go to a broomstick -- a type of stick that still has attck but much softer. Takes the edge off especially if the room is smaller. Vic Firth make a nice broomstick -- it is called a rute.

[where02190]

If he's not playing what you want to hear, I'd say tis time for a new drummer.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[Rik]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. The issue may work itself out on its own - we've had neither rehearsal space nor a gig for a while, and now my drummer has taken a construction job in another city that will keep him gone for the next six months.

 

He said he could come back on weekends if we get a gig, but the length of time since our last full-band rehearsal makes me think that isn't going to work. So we may end up getting a different drummer anyway.

 

Anyway, I hope I didn't come off as a snob Just a little frustration coming out.

[archtop]

Man the kit's sound like it would be awesome.

I bet I could sit on that kit and you enjoy the tones.

 

Nightshade said it.

he plays the cymbals too hard(97 % of rockers do)

 

Alot of cats are oblivious to the fact that they are playing at 115 db +

Kick and toms never a problem , hit em as hard as is needed. cymbals & snare can be( usually are) hit too hard

If a cat can lay off the velocity enough, the overheads could be used, and maybe even givin' some highs