Tedster Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 Don't mean to bring up a potentially touchy topic...but... I'm working on a project. Don't have the drummer thing quite finalized...but, I am playing along with "drum-machine" produced rhythm tracks, just for an anchor, mind you. I plan on deep-sixing the mechanical tracks and having a real human play drums. But, there's this pervasive argument in the recording arena of always putting drums down first. That would really hold up the project. Some drummers don't like playing along with a click track either. Thoughts? "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmix Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 It depends on the music and the rest of the band/musicians. How good is everyone ? Do you intend to do a lot of editing and flying around parts ? How complex is the music ? I've done three piece punk bands and jazz quartets with no click because the bands were tight. I've hired drummers after the fact like you're doing and it has never been a problem. A good drummer can move around the click and really pocket without sounding rigid and quantized. I've also worked with drummers that completely froze as soon as they heard the click. So I guess there is no quick answer you just need to hire a great drummer. Rob Rob Hoffman http://www.robmixmusic.com Los Angeles, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted April 28, 2003 Author Share Posted April 28, 2003 Originally posted by robmix: It depends on the music and the rest of the band/musicians. How good is everyone ? RobAll of my musicians are suck. The vocalist really sucks. Especially that fat guitar player. The tunes suck too. But, in response to your response it's good to hear...kinda followed what I was thinking, that a good drummer oughta be able to fall into what's going on. Now, just finding a good drummer to play along with my sucky trac...uh...all those sucky musicians' tracks. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarf Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 Hey Ted, Personally I kinda like playing along to a finished or almost finished track. It's nice to know what the vocal phrasing is and where the solo (if any) is going. As for drums always going down first... horse hockey! It's not at all uncommon for a drummer to replace a machine guide track or even another drummer, after the song is recorded. If your drummer can't play to a click then find another drummer for the project. Just my too sense -- Rob I have the mind of a criminal genius.....I keep it in the freezer next to mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 Preferably, the drums do go down first because that gives the drummer (or the drummer and bassist if you track them both together which is cool) the chance to "set" the groove as opposed to a machine. There are lots of little subtle tempo shifts that a drummer might do that really propel the song along, which just won't happen if you cut to a click. Also, having to play and sing your other tracks over a drum machine can be really uninspiring, certainly it is to me. Whereas playing over live drum tracks really gets me going. BUT... lots of people do cut the drums last anyway, even a lot of hit records are made that way. Personally I would never do it that way unless I had to, but if you have to, it can certainly be done. Most good drummers are perfectly capable of playing with previously recorded tracks and some enjoy it. And... AHEM... quite a few people now have sent me tracks they've recorded to a machine and had me record drums over it with one of the numerous drummers I've got stashed in the basement. So that's an option too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prague Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 In a lot of other forms of music, it's called a conductor. Any musician should be able to play from the heart with someone or something setting the tempo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeq Posted April 28, 2003 Share Posted April 28, 2003 While cutting rhythm tracks live with a band would usually be my first choice, I end up doing a lot of overdubbing to click tracks. In one way I prefer "going last" as there is more going on in my headphones to inspire me. I can just Play. But everybody in the band probably feels the same way about "going last". If the drums go first, I can establish the arrangement of the song and have a greater influence on the groove and feel, but I have to do it while listening to just a Click and a Scratch Vocal and Guitar. It feels more like "work" doing it that way. (OK it's not really 'first': scratch vocal and guitar were first but they are not staying so they don't count) Traditionally a lot of people like the drums to go first because they feel that the guitars need to hear a human groove when they overdub more than the drummer needs to hear a full band when he overdubs. But it's not a law. There have been occasions where I have done both. I "went first" to set a feeling and then at the end I redid the whole drum track to reflect the stuff that had been added. Some other things you could consider in these situations are: "groove quantizing" and micro tempo shifts for the drum machine tracks and using loops of live drumming instead of a drum machine for better "feel". There are a lot of options now for clicks- back in the day, we wound up a metronome and stuck a mic in front of it and left the room for 5 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted April 29, 2003 Author Share Posted April 29, 2003 Ideally, I'd record the rhythm tracks live, simultaneously. Not a viable option for me these days, though. I am working on demos...every chance I get. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 A lot of my own produced music starts off with a drum machine track first, sometimes I add real drums to it, sometimes I replace the drum machine tracks with real drums totally. Reason being that it sets the pace for me, as I lead in the other instruments. Sometimes I start off the drums and the bass or the drums and the keys off first on the tracks. I usually develope a drum pattern that inspires me to do a composition with a certian feel. All mostly Jazz. I am a drummer so naturally the beat is the thing for me. Jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagevibe Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Originally posted by paostby: In a lot of other forms of music, it's called a conductor. Any musician should be able to play from the heart with someone or something setting the tempo.It's not quite the same thing. No conductor will ever be as perfect as a machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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