Roland V Session vs. D Drum 4 SE.

[Threshold]

All,

 

The Roland V Session vs. the D Drum 4 SE. Which system do YOU think is best. Plus's minus's of either. Opinions anyone?

 

Threshold.

[Threshold]

All,

 

Humph, Well I guess no one around here owns, or has tried either of these drum systems but me(V Session owner). Seems peculiar especially looking at the number of folks that do studio work aroung here.

 

Threshold.

[freelance]

I have the Roland V-Drums. I've played various Yamaha kits and have played Pintech and Hart pads (triggering different modules) however I have never had an opportunity to try Ddrums.

 

I can tell you that the drummers I've talked to who had played Ddrums thought the sounds and trigger response was better than the TD-10.

 

However, I don't really know what that tells me, since I've played various e-kits that were set up very well and I've played e-kits where the various parameters were set up very poorly.

 

I'd love to get my hands on a set of Ddrums to compare.

[Threshold]

freelance,

 

Which V Drums set do you have. V Stage, V Session? What do you like/dislike about your set.

 

Threshold.

[freelance]

Threshold,

 

I have basically the V-session (the original white shells)which does not include the "V-cymbals". I do have the TDW-1 upgrade, I just can't make myself pay out seveal hundred $$$ for the cymbals.

 

There really is not much I don't like about the V-Drums. Naturally the cymbal sounds are lacking, but I have yet to find good sounding e-cymbals (I have not even heard samples which could capture all the subtle harmonics and overtones). Accordingly, most of the time we use accoustic cymbals with the V-Drums.

 

I don't like the cymbal pads (no give)- although the V-cymbals are a significant improvement which let you "play thru the cymbal".

 

I think the Roland sounds are weaker out of the box than say Alesis (which I believe has to do with the compressed samples) but the "tweakablity" off-sets that weakness.

 

I do find that the Roland sounds don't sit in a mix as well as accoustic drums (at least good drums)- which to some degree is true of most e-drum sounds (although many Alesis sounds sit pretty well in a mix). However, I often combine the attack of one sound with the resonance of another sound to get the best of both.

 

As I've indicated, I can't compare the TD-10 to the Ddrums, but compared to what Yamaha offers, I think Roland is better. The Pintech & Hart pads are decent, but you still need a brain.

 

I've played e-drums going all the way back to Simmons - so I can't really complain much about the V-Drums.

 

What are your likes and dislikes???

[Threshold]

freelance,

 

I too like the programability of the V Drums. My V Session set is the full package with cymbals. I am about to update it with a DW kick pedal(5000, or 9000). I also like the cymbals(much better than the Ddrum cymbals). I agree that the cymbal sounds are lacking but with the right subtractive EQ, & 3 dimensional effects they can be made to sound more convincing. I find that custom selecting cymbals into a custom kit yields better results than the standard cymbal matching within most factory presets.

 

Threshold.

[djarrett]

Threshold:

I use the ddrum4, but unfortunately ... I cannot help you regarding pads, feel, etc. I use triggers with my acoustic drums to initiate the sounds.

I love the overall ddrum philosophy.

 

DJ

[Threshold]

djjarrett,

 

You said you trigger your Ddrum 4. Do you use Ddrums triggers as well. I've heard that Ddrum has the best triggers on the planet no matter what sound module you use. Have you demo'd the Ddrum 4 brain sounds up against the Roland V Sessions brain(TD-10) with the TDW-1 expansion card installed. Personally I think Ddrums raw sounds are best overall compared to Rolands. But when Rolands sounds are used non-dry using internal effects they seem to come alive. To make the Ddrum sounds come even with the Roland effected sounds requires some good quality outboard effects. Just my opinion.

 

Threshold.

[Prague]

I use a drumkat 3.5, a MidiKit Pro, a Space Muffin snare, 5 TomKat/Dauz 10" pads, 2 Axis bass pedals, 3 PoleKats, and 3 Vistalite cymbal pads. Sounds are from a D4 and a Yamaha DTXtreme module (which also plays aif samples).

 

The drumKat is great for the right hand just above the hi-hat position. I have claps, claves, tambourines, and cymbals on the pads.

 

I might go to a real hi-hat. Since the band sound is that of a recording, cymbals typically don't decay for 5 minutes anyway, so I've had little problem with various crashes.

 

I intend to add a Kat xylophone controller, too.

[djarrett]

Hey, Threshold:

I never really noticed a problem with the "dry" sounds from the ddrums, but ... alas ... I do run the sounds through an Alesis Midiverb II.

 

I'm just old school I guess. Love that big hall effect!

 

Thanks,

DJ

[Threshold]

djjarrett,

 

Regarding the old school: The Hugh Padgham/Phil Collins sound even? And again, what about the trigger type you're using. Ddrum triggers, or some other brand.

 

Threshold.

 

P.S.:What do you think of the realism(or lack thereof)of cymbal sounds in the Ddrum, V Session, or other electronic drum systems. What device in your opinion has the best cymbals sound(feel free to include sample libraries as well).

[Allan Speers]

I haven't tried the d-drums, but I now use a V-session kit in the studio and have a few strong opinions:

 

1: With the roland stuff, only the V-Session pads will do. The cheaper V-stage pads don't even come close for realistic feel. I have read that many prefer the feel of the Hart pads. however, two personal friends say that the Hart pads don't work all that well with roland brains. This needs more investigation.

 

I have so far had several top session drummers lay tracks with the V-Session pads, and none had any complaints at all regarding the feel of the kick and toms. In fact, the V-session kick feels better than any real kick. You can adjust the tension for optimum playability instead of sound, which is a dream come true.

 

2: Although I initially planned on using only the midi-trigger brain (to trigger Gigastudio samples,) I went for the TD-10 / expansion after all. I did this for several reasons. the most important is that the Roland pads have infinite positional-sensing, so playing flams and rolls on the toms sounds absolutely authentic. This positional info will ONLY translate to the Roland brain, not to a sampler or other sound module. This is the tail that wags the dog for me, and the session drummers agree. I'm told that D-Drums don't do this, so IMO there is no point even considering them. The Hart pads evidently do this, so they are a contender.

 

3: Why on earth did Roland choose NOT to include a digital output on the TD-10? The analog section of this brain STINKS. I am hoping to find a good tech who can bypass the analog stage of this thing, and at least give me a clean, +4 balanced output. At best a lightpipe output, but that may not be possible. I have had other keyboards modified in this way, and the difference is sound has sometimes been amazing. It has been ESPECIALLY noticeable on Roland keyboards and modules, so I have high hopes for the modified TD-10.

 

4: The cymbal sounds are pretty underwhelming. However, I use real cymbals, hats, and usually snare, so that doesn't matter to me. I only use the V cymbal-pads for specialty cymbal sounds, of which there ARE a few cool ones.

 

5: With the TD-10, the expansion card is a must.

 

6: If you plan on triggering sampled hats, instead of the TD-10 hats, do NOT plan on using the V-drum hats system. It doesn't translate well. I am using a drumkat, mounted sideways, and this works like a dream.

 

Last: I started a thread a few weeks agao about the prospect of using some kind of "thumper" device, to simulate the air-movement caused by a real kick drum. The overwhelming response was that this is not needed in a studio situation. Having recorded the V-drums now for a few weeks, I heartily dissagree. While I have not yet found the perfect solution, I have temporarily turned an 18" woofer upside-down onto the drum platform. I made an extention so that the bass-player can also stand on this platform. With the 18" vibrating the platform, several bass players and drummers all felt that it was easier to lay down a pocket with the woofer on. Unfortunately, this system creates problems in the cymbal mics, so I am still seeking the best alternative. The key here is that it seems to help the BASS player even more than the drummer. -Much like having a bass amp on even when recording DI.

[crazystix]

VDRUM FORUM

 

Hart Dynamics is the way to go. No contest.

 

ON THE HUNT

[seclusion]

Great Topic,

I'm in the midst of grabbing a setup of edrums of some sort. I already have a DM5 but I use samples from gigastudio that are just huge.. Just in the studio, no live. I'm just curious what the delay would be using the DM5 as just an input source to trigger gigasamples through the DAW??

Anybody got that deep into it. The DM5 has cool samples but are uncomparable to say Drumkit from Hell or Bob Clearmaountain samples. I just don't know if I'd go nuts through such a large midi chain.. That'd be kit to cables to midi to midi interface to Daw to Lan over midito gigastudio to 2408 to console to speakers.. Me thinks there'd be a delay from stick to sound!!

Any thoughts??

Thanks

Bri

[Allan Speers]

Bri,

 

Good questions. i am just getting into this, and can tell you my thoughts:

 

I'm using the V-drums for kick and toms. I had a tough time deciding on the TD10 vs the Roland midi-converter into Gigastudio. The midi converter clearly has less latency that the TD10 in it's midi output, though I did not have the oportunity to do careful measurements. i am GUESSING that there is about a 1 ms difference. However, this really doesn't matter, see below.

 

My fastest Giga setup gives a real-world throughput of about 3 ms, if polyphony is med-to-low. so, best case total delay with the TD10 is about 5 ms or so FOR ONE NOTE. I would imagine that the DM5 would be even worse, as it's an older design. As notes stack, there is of course almost 1 ms more per note due to midi's serial speed limitation.

 

What is the maximum delay allowable before the drummer notices? Hmmmmm. When I'm playing fast keyboard runs, I'd put that threshold at just about 5 ms. Anything below that, and my brain can happily track the physical movement of my fingers, ignoring the audio delay. At 10 ms,however, my brain definitely has a problem with the difference between finger-feel and aural detection.

 

Much worse, however, is what the OTHER musician's hear in the cans: Some might argue that 5 ms is nothing, equivalent to being 5 feet away from the drummer, but I would counter that very few live bands play as tightly as they think they do. IMO, 5 ms is a LOT.

 

BUT NONE OF THIS REALLY MATTERS. Here's why:

 

Any delay, as long as it's even and consistent, can be compensated for afterward. This is why I spent $1700 on the TD-10 w/ expander (ouch.) By using the TD10 as my midi-converter, the musicians can have the internal sounds from the brain folded back into the cue system. Because the brain does NOT use midi to trigger its internal sounds, this gives microsecond timing. I record the midi into Protools or Logic, with auto-compensation set for playback. I am also finding, so far, that I prefer using the TD10's toms to anything in my vast Giga libraries, due to the positional sensing this provides. the Roland doesn't have a lot of great sounds, but there are definitely a few kicks and toms that are perfect. -that's all I need.

 

There is still the problem of midi slop, due to the slow serial interface. I had hope to record each performance into the TD10's internal sequencer, while locking it to PT via mtc. I would then record either midi or audio, one drum at a time, into the DAW. that would give PERFECT timing. Unfortunately, this is impossible because the TD10's internal sequencer doesn't have enough memory. (massive frustration alert.)

 

I am hopeful that Roland's next brain will include both a digital output, and a new midi system based on either m-lan or usb-2. This would be a MAJOR step for those of us trying to use e-drums in the studio.

 

The only other option you have right now is to use Logic-audio, running native (not TDM) in conjunction with the ESX sampler. With that setup, you would have no delay except for the 1 ms or so in the trigger-to-midi converter box. there may soon be many other choices, due to rewire adn audio-units. of course, if you're on a pc then you're stuck with the "compensate after recording" routine for the foreseeable future.

[seclusion]

Thanks Allan.

Ya I thought I'd be up against the wall, I had used the DM5 in my old band 8 years ago with my drummer and a really cheezy Edrum kit, I don't remember the brand but it had plastic hard skins and sucked really bad so I stopped investigating. Now working in the studio primarily by myself I'd like to just save time and do less programming of drum parts and just play em.. Especially fills, they don't seem to be as realistic using a keyboard or prefabbed fills. Yes that may be the ticket using Logic's sampler, I was thinking of moving bass and drums into the Logic computer and leave piano/strings/ and the rest of it on my other system dedicated to giga.. I guess I'll have to try chickensys translator to move em into ESX24, as I hear it translate's better from Giga to other samplers. Ya I'm using 2 P3's both with 2408's and USB AMT in logic and Midi to lan to the giga machine. At this point in time technoloy definately can't get any better than that for latency. I have the buffer settings in both Logic and giga to 64 which is Motu's lowest latency setting. The odd time I have to kick Logic back to 128 if the tune gets a higher audio track count. So far I find the sample libraries miles ahead of any hardware drum kits. The Roland I guess is moving forward. If you can imagine that I currently use the dm5 as just a metronome. Ya I guess I could just perform the track listening to the DM5 samples but I'm picky, seen as I have the libraries, I'd like to hear them as I play. Guess all I can do is take the plunge.

Thanks again

Later

Bri

[djarrett]

Threshold:

I use the ddrum triggers.

I use them on acoustic drums for live playing primarily. If I am recording, I use the brains buttons to tap out the groove.

 

The cymbals sounds are "actual" cymbal sounds, but as I have really never used the cymbal sounds for live playing, I am a hard drummer to ask about the cymbals. I can say this ... I can always identify electronically generated cymbals on the demo stuff I hear coming out of Nashville.

 

I love enhancing the acoustic drums with the electronic drums. I usually have the sound tech run a split signal so that you get a nice round mix of the acoustic sound and the electronic. This can be a challenge for an inexperienced sound tech!

 

You got to determine what you are looking for in the electronic drum world, because this will really help determine what you are looking for.

 

Thanks,

DJ

[Threshold]

djarrett,

 

Thanks for the followup/feedback. Very insightful. For me the solution to what I percieve as a lack of convincingness in electronic cymbals is A-Mic real cymbals, or B-Trigger samples from a cymbal sample library such as the Bob Clearmountain Drums 2 sample library played back via my MPC4000.

 

Threshold.