Studio Kit Choice...opinions.

[miroslav]

How do...my first post on the Drum Talk Forum.

 

I've been planing to get a basic 5-piece kit for my studio.

 

I'm not a drummer (though I can hold a nice steady beat )

I just wanted to have a "studio kit" that could be used for recording.

It would minimize set-up time, since I would have the kit and mics always in position (at least the mic stands).

The kit might only need a slight adjustment as per individual player.

 

So...a work acquaintance has an "almost new" Pearl Export 5-piece, that he bought for his kid...who almost never played it during the 2 years he had it.

 

The price seems really good from what I can tell...

 

$400 for the kit, and that includes Zildjian Razor Edge ride & crash cymbals and Camber Hi-Hat. I think it also includes the throne and probably odds-n-ends...since his kid is completely giving up on it.

 

Any opinions about this Brand/Model to be used for a nice, basic studio kitand the price?

 

Thanks

[miroslav]

Oh...another question.

 

How do you feel about bottom heads?

 

I don't like to mic them...but I've never taken the time to really experiment on the sound of the drums with and/or without the bottom heads.

 

Actually, most of the time in the past, I've gone with no-bottom heads, and then top-miked everything...this seems to give me a "bigger" looser bang.

 

I'm assuming that with bottom heads...the sound will tighten up...???

 

It's been awhile since I dealt with real drums...so help me out with some suggestions for kit-set ups and sound!!!

[vintagevibe]

The pearl exports will sound fine. It will all be in the tuning. I would NEVER leave off the bottom heads ESPECIALLY in the studio. IMO drums sound dead and empty with no bottom heads. The only exception is the kick drum. You may want a less ambient sound for that. That's a matter of taste.

[miroslav]

Originally posted by dino321:

 

The pearl exports will sound fine. It will all be in the tuning. I would NEVER leave off the bottom heads ESPECIALLY in the studio. IMO drums sound dead and empty with no bottom heads. The only exception is the kick drum. You may want a less ambient sound for that. That's a matter of taste.

Sounds good...so bottom heads are the way to go!

 

Do you then like to tune the bottom and top heads to the same note...or do you go for harmonics?

Any best-way...wrong-way...I need a refresher course.

 

It's been awhile since I've messed with real drums...I became addicted to MIDI drum sequencing several years back...well, it was just easier for a non-drummer...especially when I was doing all the recording by myself.

[Lee Flier]

Miroslav,

 

I would say that if you're going to get a kit for your commercial studio, you should be willing to bite the bullet and get a high dollar one. There are two reasons for this:

 

1) Many drummers, if they have some hotdog kit and they find out you have a cheaper one in your studio, will simply insist on bringing their own kit anyway - which defeats the purpose of your having one.

 

2) There's a REASON why Gretsch, DW, and Noble & Cooley are used in the studio more than other kits. They are solidly constructed - the hardware doesn't rattle and the tone is true, with no overtones that will resonate in your recordings (so long as the heads are decent and the drums are tuned properly of course).

 

Cymbals, too, are something you don't want to trust to chance. The types of cymbals that tend to record well are usually thinner than those that sound good live, and every cymbal sounds different (even within the same model/size), so you want to choose them carefully, make sure they don't produce overtones or transients that will be extremely irritating and impossible to deal with when close miked. This is the kind of thing that causes engineers to pull out the moon gel and duct tape which tends to annoy drummers and kill the excitement of a good cymbal tone. Stop this problem by making sure you have cymbals in the first place that sound exciting but don't ring so bad you need tape.

 

You also want to make sure you have solid kick and hi-hat pedals that don't rattle or squeak when played hard. WD-40 can fix some squeaks but will not necessarily fix everything. Same thing with the throne - if it squeaks or rattles you're dead. And just because YOU might treat drum gear gently and not play too hard doesn't mean you won't run into a drummer who does! That's when the rattles and squeaks tend to become apparent.

 

I spent about $3K on my Gretsch Broadkaster kit. This is more than I've spent on any of my guitars or recording equipment. But the way I looked at it was, lots of people spend thousands on a bunch of high dollar mics, pres, compressors, etc. just to record a crappy drum kit. When if they'd just spent the price of one top of the line mic or pre on a good drum kit, they could get really great drum sounds even without the top drawer recording gear (and my recording gear and room certainly ain't top drawer to say the least, but I get lots of praise for my drum recordings. Gee, ya think it has to do with the kit, the right mic placement and the drummers I work with? ).

 

If you only want to spend $400 on drum gear, you might start by simply getting a good kick pedal, in case a drummer brings one in that's really noisy, and maybe a really good cymbal or two (ride cymbals that record well are especially hard to find, so if you can find one, drummers will probably thank you). Then if you have a few more $$ invest in a really good snare or two - if for no other reason than to offer different "flavors" to a drummer coming in (a 5.5" maple snare, 6.5" metal snare, and a piccolo snare are a good starting assortment but don't get cheap stuff especially not snare drums! You can always get the rest of a kit piecemeal as you get the money (that's what I did), and that's way better than buying a cheap kit.

 

And yes, I always use bottom heads. Usually they are tuned about even with the top heads, but sometimes they'll get tuned down a bit from the top ones to produce a bending tone, if the song calls for it. Don't worry too much about exact pitches, every drum has a "sweet spot" where it sounds best, just use your ears to find that and you'll be all right. FWIW, I use Evans Genera "vented dry" heads on my snare, Remo PowerStroke 3 on the kick, and Aquarian Response on toms. I've tried several other types and those just seem to work the best in the studio. Do make sure you change the heads regularly on your studio kit, it makes all the difference in the world... and every engineer should learn to tune drums because you'll always end up getting a drummer now and then who's not used to recording and doesn't know how to tune for that.

 

My goal was to have a kit that even the staunchest "drum snob" would love to play, and that has pretty much been the case. Drummers will bring in extra snares for different flavors, and sometimes a cymbal or two of their own to switch out and get different tones, or maybe their own kick pedal if they have one they're really comfy with. But they all love to play my kit, and it reliably records great, and that's the important thing!

[miroslav]

Lee...why doesn't it surprise me that you would have the most detailed info on studio drums!

 

You bring up a lot of good points and offer some great suggestions.

 

Hmmm...I don't know though if I'm at a point right now where I want to drop $ 3K on the ultimate studio kit...but I can see why it would receive favorable reviews from all who play it.

 

As I said...this was an acquaintance that was selling the Perl Export kit...and there's at least about $1200 worth of drums/accessories there...so $400 sure sounded appealing for and almost new kit.

 

Actually I was not even sure about buying any kit at this time, but I always planned on eventually getting one...

cuz I'm still planning on getting Nuendo...which will set me back about at least a grand, maybe more...and then I had some other studio priorities.

 

So, when this kit came up...I thought...hmmmm, and opportunity to at least have a decent kit, might be better than no kit at all...???

I figured that there would always be the possibility of a drummer preferring to use his ownbut in the mean time, I would still have a real kit, and that could provide more options, than just always using MIDI drums like I am now.

 

Thanks for you detailed post!

[Lee Flier]

Well of course any kit is better than MIDI drums!

 

And really, if you can spare the $400 it does sound like a really good deal! Should hold its resale value anyhow, and there may be some parts you want to hang onto even if you end up getting something better.

 

Who knows, if you put a good set of heads on that kit and tune it up real nice, you might be really happy with it! Especially if you've been using MIDI drums. i guess I'm just trying to prevent you getting discouraged if you DON'T get the sounds you want, or if drummers still want to bring in their own kit. Otherwise, it's hard to go wrong for $400.

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

 

Who knows, if you put a good set of heads on that kit and tune it up real nice, you might be really happy with it! Especially if you've been using MIDI drums. i guess I'm just trying to prevent you getting discouraged if you DON'T get the sounds you want, or if drummers still want to bring in their own kit. Otherwise, it's hard to go wrong for $400.

I know what you mean...

 

...but I remember back before I got into the MIDI drums...I had this absolutely piece-of-shit, no-name, beat up kit.

 

I put some good heads on it...tuned it up...and was able to actually get a really nice recorded drum sound out of it...of course, I dont think a good drummer would have come within 10 feet of that pile of junk!!!

[miroslav]

Saw the Pearl Export kit last night.

 

EXCELLENT condition.

Like-new...not a mark on itjust some dust.

 

Hardware looked very solid...the drums had a nice tone...no squeaks/rattles.

The crash & ride Zildjian cymbals sounded REAL nice, no harshness...they were well picked.

 

With all that...plus the throne and bunch of sticks...I couldn't resist.

 

It was a good buy for $400...and if I get tired of it or want to upgradethis kit will easily retain its resale value...especially since it will never see any road...just my studio.

 

Picking it up tonight!

[Lee Flier]

Sounds killer Miroslav, congrats! I am sure that having a real kit around will do wonders for your well being. Let us know how it works out for ya!

[Blue Strat]

Lee, you've got a Gretsch drum set? WOW! Those are great! So what type of sound do you go for from a drum kit?

[djarrett]

miroslav:

 

Here is the deal the Pearl Export is basically a beginner kit and the cymbals you speak of ... are certainly mid-level.

 

BUT, with the right heads and good tuning, ... you can make just about any resonant chamber sound good.

 

I would suggest this ... the set was a great price for what you got. Invest in really good heads. Keep this set in great condition. Trade up when you are ready to go for the better studio professional kit. This set should at the very least hold the value that you have invested in it (if you can keep it in the pristine shape).

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks,

DJ

[miroslav]

Originally posted by djarrett:

 

Here is the deal the Pearl Export is basically a beginner kit and the cymbals you speak of ... are certainly mid-level.

 

BUT, with the right heads and good tuning, ... you can make just about any resonant chamber sound good.

 

I would suggest this ... the set was a great price for what you got. Invest in really good heads.

Yes...I had no misconceptions that it was an entry level-set...but it was a great price even at that. I wiped it down and it is like-new...has the full length metal bars between the top/bottom lugs...really looks sweet...and its jet black!!!

 

The Zildjian Razor Edge crash and ride actually sound VERY nice even if they are lower priced models...but I will probably be getting a few more to have on hand for different flavors...same thing with the snare, I will be getting a couple more for variety.

 

So...any specific recommendations/considerations for:

 

Cymbals:

 

Tuning:

 

Heads:

 

Thanks to all!

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

Lee, you've got a Gretsch drum set? WOW! Those are great!

Yes indeed... I first heard this Broadkaster reissue kit at a little drum shop here in Atlanta which sadly no longer exists, driven out of business by Guitar Center. And if it weren't for this shop I might never have heard this wonderful kit. Once I heard it, I knew I could never be happy with anything else... LOL.

 

So what type of sound do you go for from a drum kit?

Well I like the old school sound that the classic rock and jazz players got. I like drums that are really allowed to resonate and aren't all deadened with tape. I like a snare that really snaps in the high end but has a full body, and smaller toms tuned as low as they'll go. And a righteous John Bonham-esque kick drum.

 

And most of all I love a drummer who can really play these things they way they oughta be! Luckily I'm in a band with my favorite drummer in the whole world, so not a problem!

[Blue Strat]

So...any specific recommendations/considerations for:

 

Cymbals:

 

Tuning:

 

Heads:

For cymbals, a Wuhan China is great, and maybe a second crash cymbal. I've got a Paiste 502 16" crash and I love it!

 

For heads, I've got Aquarian studio X heads on my toms, a Remo white coated head with black center dot on my 5.5" wood snare, and the original Ludwig heads on my bass.

 

Tuning is all personal taste. I tune the batter head first (what the sticks hit) and the resonant head second. Tune the batter head to the pitch you want (should sustain a little, shouldn't sound dead) and then put the resonant head on and tune it to taste. Tighten the lugs like you would the lug-nuts on your car; tighten one a bit and then go to the opposite side of the drum, then come back to the one next to the lug you started with, and so on.

 

On muffling the bass drum, I use a towel against the batter head and that's all. My resonant head on the kick has a 6" hole off center.

[miroslav]

I've dealt with real drums before...I use to even tune the drummers drums when I use to play in a band (about a million years ago).

I just need a refresher course on some basics.

 

I remember way back using the double skin, oil filled, hydraulic heads on this beat up old kit I used for recording...they seemed to vibrate with a very "warm" smooth tone...made that crappy kit sound quite good.

 

I don't like getting too much of a mid-high crack on toms and kick...rather more of a nice "thud", but with smooth resonance...a fast-medium release time without the "drone".

 

This Pear Export kit has the original heads that it came with...shit, I can almost count how many times each head was struck...there is very little use or abuse anywhere on this kit.

I'm already looking for a nice wood snare, and I would like to grab another set of heads that will sound quite different from the Export factory issues...maybe hydraulics???

 

I saw those some Wuhan cymbals on sale for good prices at Musicians Friend...might grab a China like suggested.

 

I tell you...even though I'm not a drummer...I'm quite glad I got this kit...makes a very nice addition to my studio, and it's giving me a bit of inspiration to get going with some recording.

I've been sitting on my ass the last couple of months...couldnt get motivated...must have been the snow and cold weather.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, a drum kit in a studio is kinda like putting a fireplace in your house - makes it seem more like a real home, and provides a focal point.

 

Try the Aquarian Response 2 heads on toms if you like the 2 ply heads, they're great. They can be a little hard to find, you might have to special order them. But it's worth it.

 

And I really really like the Evans snare heads. I used to like Remo but they've gotten very inconsistent lately (except for the PowerStroke kick heads, those seem to last forever) - the coating seems to come off them right away and they sound very different from one head to the next.

 

For cymbals I like the Zildjian K "dark" crashes, and I tend to get them in thinner sizes. Hi hats, I have a pair of 15" Zildjian New Beats. Yes, 15". I went to the store all set to get the more standard 14", but for some reason this particular pair sounded incredibly thick and rich and I went for 'em. Our drummer loves them, he uses them on a good deal of our stuff and if we need something brighter and faster he's got some 14" Paistes (I do like the Paiste hats a lot and some of their crashes).

 

Ride cymbals are the toughest to find one that sounds good. There really are no rules about them, even within the same make and model they all sound different, and you have to search forever to find the one you're 100% happy with. Mine's a Zildjian K 20" that's all right for certain things, but I'm not wild about it. Our drummer seems to like it a lot and uses it on lots of our recordings, which I find funny because I think HIS old Zildjian jazz ride is about the coolest sounding ride I've ever heard. Not that he doesn't love that too. But rides are a pretty deeply subjective thing, and I'm glad we have more than one around!

 

If you want a great maple snare then by all means check out the one from my kit, the Gretsch Broadkaster. I've never heard a better snare that doesn't cost like $1200.

[miroslav]

So...I bought a nice little kit for $400 last week...

...and then this weekend I went and spent another $550 on accessories for the kit!!!

 

I picked up some Evans Blue Hydraulic heads for the kit...a few drummers suggested that they would go a long way to making an entry-level kit sound big...and they will also give my that big "Tom-Thud" that I like, without the drone.

Though I know that tuning the bottom heads correctly is the key to making them sound right.

 

I also picked up a nice wood snare to go along with the steel one...now I'm also thinking about getting either a steel/wood 13x3 piccolo, or a small 10X5 snare...maybe both...but I'll wait a bit until I see how the kit sounds, and what's missing.

 

I also grabbed a couple of Wuhan cymbals...a nice 18" China and a 10" Splash...of course with the added cymbals, I had to get another cymbal stand and one of those cymbal stacker adapters for my other stand.

 

What the hell...I also needed a cowbell too...and of course, a cowbell holder.

 

Then...to finish it off...I happened to spot a 10x8 Tom at Musicians Friend, that was NOS from a couple of years ago...which had the EXACT styling of my kit...and they just happened to have one in the same Jet Black color...the price was right, so I grabbed that too...and of course I needed a Tom stand/holder also.

 

So...now I'll have a sweet looking kit, with some different flavors for on Toms, snares and cymbals...and I'm pretty confident that when I put the new heads on and tune 'em up...it should also be studio worthy!!!

 

Anybody wanna' buy a used rhythm box?

 

Naaaa...just kidding Lee!

I'll still hold on to my Emu Pro-cussion box...that thing has some outrageous sounds in it, and I it will complement my real kit.

Hmmmm....maybe some MIDI triggers would be good, then I can play the real drums, but also trigger the Emu box...hmmm...anybody have suggestions for that?

[Blue Strat]

Hmmmm....maybe some MIDI triggers would be good, then I can play the real drums, but also trigger the Emu box...hmmm...anybody have suggestions for that?

ddrum makes triggers that you can mount on the rim of your drums. You take one of the tuning lugs out and put the trigger on, then put the lug back.

 

I think that djarrett uses these, IIRC.

http://img.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/tn/44/442196.t.jpg

 

and then there's these:

http://img.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/tn/44/444894.t.jpg

[miroslav]

Yeah, I've seen both of those advertised...but I just can't quite understand why they talk about XLR cables...???

 

I was thinking of MIDI...so that when I hit the snare...it would trigger via MIDI my Emu snare.

 

And when I hit a tom...that would trigger via MIDI whatever tom I picked in the Emu box.

 

SO it seems to me that I would need a trigger on each drum...then they should go to some sort of MIDI Input device/controller so that I could map each trigger via specific MIDI channel to one of the Emu sounds.

 

So...how do the XLRs come into play? DUH!!!???

Is that how you get the triggered impulses to a controller, and then from there they get assigned to MIDI channels...?

 

Besides the individual triggers on each drum...what else would I need to send via MIDI to my Emu box.

 

I see they they sell a lot of stuff individually...triggers, controllers...etc.

 

What is the most basic drum-to-MIDI set-up?

OK...I have 4 toms, snare and bass drum...that's 6 triggers.

How about Hi Hat and cymbals...triggers for them too?

Now, besides the individual triggers...what is the simplest way to go drums-triggers-MIDI-Emu box?

 

Thanks for all the help folks!!!

[Blue Strat]

I've never used triggers or MIDI before, so this is all new to me. I'd suppose that drum triggers work kinda like a Roland synth system for a guitar, where there's a pickup (the trigger) then from there the signal goes to a processor (the MIDI) then to an amplifier. I'm probably wrong about it being that simple...