Tusker Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 We use a Roland V-drum set (with TD10)in our community church. Although it sounds adequate, we notice that whenever we use a live drum set, we get better playing from all the musicians. Better "groove". We think it has to do with the a) the authority of the kick and b) dynamics and ghost notes. Any of you have a similar experiences. Are there ways to tweak the V-drums to have a better kick. What about dynamic control? Our drummer is pretty old-school, he'll run through the presets and he has occasional changed the beater in the model or something like that, but he is looking to me for "technical" advice. We'd like to stay with the V-drums just for convenience. Got any advice for me? Thanks, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I think you said it all Jerry. I believe you are correct in your analogy. I've played on V-Drums and they sound great. But the dynamics are not as good as a drummer on a live drum set. You say your drummer is old school, maybe he is uncomfortable with the set, and feels better on the real thing. Real drums give off a vibe that sends out it's sound on the entire stage where on the V-Drums it is the placement of the speakers. One other thought, what kind of a sound system are you on. If the sound system sucks, then the drummer and the players will not feel all of the V-drums potential. It is harder to listen to drums out of speakers then to have a real drummer have the dynamics at his call. Of course this is my opinion, and I'm sure that others here whom have used these on stage have their thoughts too. I went to a concert once where the drummer had an electric set on a stage and he sounded bland, never changed his beat. I think the drummer just knew how to do the basics and no more. V-Drums are really nice to use, but I can see the drawbacks if the sound is not placed right within the group. The right speakers, and placement may be the answer. In a real set it is harder to get phase cancling, in a speaker set up I believe it is easier to get this.......I could be wet here. I agree a lot in what you have observed and stated. I don't know if I helped any. My fade-out........... Jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain54 Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 It all comes down to how the V-drums are being monitored on stage... I used a set of JBL Eon G2's....450 watts pumping thru each cabinet..15" woofer and titanium driven horn...this was just for the stage monitoring...the V-kit was pumped thru the house PA..., but in a small venue it might not be necessary..you might even be able to get by with one JBL eon type monitor onstage.. since there is no sound coming from the V-drums, it is critical to get some kind of on-stage monitoring going, possibly running some outboard gear also like, compression, sonic maximers,etc...a BBE sonic maximizer can have a huge effect on what comes out of V-drums.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted January 7, 2003 Author Share Posted January 7, 2003 Thank you for your responses. I don't know if it's the headphone monitoring... The drummer and the bassist have their own mix. They wear headphones. The rest of us have two slightly different mixes with slight emphasis/de-emphasis here and there. I don't know what the monitors are but they are your typical wedge variety with power amps driving them. Due to the V-Drums we have been able to keep stage volumes really low. I have wondered if "the groove" with the acoustic was partly us enjoying the higher sonic levels on stage. I do think it's more than just that. And when we record ourselves (simple two mike arrangement for the drums, putting them in a cage) it's like night and day. The acoustics speak with authority. They hit you in the chest even when you play back a recording though our monitors. I hope this information helps answer the questions you posed to me. Can we go further with V-drums? Is there a next level there we should explore first or should we switch to acoustic and all it's attendant problems? Thanks, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain54 Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 I have used the V-drums in every kind of situation and it has its positives and negatives.. If you are looking for them to replicate acoustic drums, it's not going to happen...its like trying to compare a Steinway baby grand to a Fender Rhodes... Most of the people I know who have used V-drums with great success on stage use some sort of outboard effects processing in conjunction with a pumping on-stage monitoring system....the stock sounds straight out of your td-10 box, with the stock effects, are not going to have the impact of your td-10 processed thru outboard compression, eq, etc... The most success we have had is when we had the drummer (me) as the only one with the headphone mix, that mix coming from an outboard mixer, like a Mackie 1202vlz, (the Mackie is cool too in that it has inserts and sends to run outboard effects), and all the other band members hearing the V-drums thru a monitoring system dedicated only to V-drums, running independent of the house mix... check out www.vdrums.com for more info on some other ways to rig your v's.....I wouldn't give up on it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techristian Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 I use the Roland Octapads, which are considered "OLD TECHNOLOGY" today, but I have found that tweaking the "Sensitivity" and "Curve" controls will make the feel more realistic. If you turn the sensitivity up too high, the drums will be too loud, even when you play quiet. The CURVE setting will add leverage to your accents. If you adjust the curve one way you may need to BEAT HARD on the drum to get accents, but the other way will make slight accents more pronounced. I don't know how the terminology has changed in the past 15 years, but those are Roland terms from 1987-1992. I hope that this helps. Dan http://teachmedrums.com TEACHMEDRUMS.COM My Music Videos RED PILL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I play V's at church as well. I can tell you right now, it's your monitoring system. People can't groove when they can't hear. It's always an uphill battle too, because the drums always end up being an after-thought when levels are being adjusted. The only person who has it worse is the poor bass player! It has nothing to do with the sounds, or the velocity curves or whatnot on the TD-10. In fact, I've found that the V-drum sounds make great use of 'cracks' and attacks. I would also argue with those who say that the V-drum can't effectively replace an acoustic kit, or that the dynamics aren't as sensitive as acoustic drums. They are MORE sensitive, and the rebound from the pad is far better than from any drum head. In a great many situations, the V's can easily replace acoustic drums -provided they are properly implemented... That means your PA system, and monitoring system can effectively produce the frequencies and decibels needed to match that of an acoustic drumset. If you think you can just plug them in to the second input on the bass player's amp, you might as well forget it. The drums will sound like elevator music. Proper amplification and monitoring is key... Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Originally posted by Tusker: ....Due to the V-Drums we have been able to keep stage volumes really low. I have wondered if "the groove" with the acoustic was partly us enjoying the higher sonic levels on stage....I also think this has a lot to do with it. When drums are at a higher level it is easier to lock into the groove. It's easier to feel the groove. Also, which kick is the drummer using? The TD7 (I think that is the name), the unit with the little black abase and the curved beater, tends to be less responsive. They also get week or or out. The newer VDrum bass units give you more responce. As someone said, sensativity can also be adjusted. I had to lower mine a bit on the TD kick because I was getting too many ghost notes. I also had to up the volume of the bass drum. Robert This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 Thanks fellas. I am not sure what kind of bass pedal and beater we are using. I'll look into it. Meanwhile we have about a year to decide. I'll ask the sound guy to (secretly) raise the stage levels for the drums and see if that improves us. So far, nobody's asked for more level on the drums, because (typically) people want to hear more of themselves and the drum/bass players have their own mix into headphones. Maybe if we cranked the drums a bit .... at least we can test the theory. Thanks, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by Tusker: Maybe if we cranked the drums a bit .... at least we can test the theory.Yeah, test the theory. Let the drummer set the volume for his/her headphone mix, so that the drums are about the same level in relation to the other instruments that an acoustic kit would be, and then play some tunes. At least with me, I find that I play softer, more musically. I relax my grip on the sticks, and I usually smile a lot, because I can hear everything nice and clear. I describe it as listening to a recording, except that I'm playing on the recording while I'm listening to it -hope that made sense. Suffice to say, it's a pleasurable experience. Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 Although it sounds adequate, we notice that whenever we use a live drum set, we get better playing from all the musicians. Better "groove". We think it has to do with the a) the authority of the kick and b) dynamics and ghost notes. Are there ways to tweak the V-drums to have a better kick. What about dynamic control? Our drummer is pretty old-school, he'll run through the presets.... ----- groove is groove, acoustic or electronic. as others have said, it sounds primarily like a monitoring/mix/level issue. an acoustic drummer has the ability to control output level and "mix himself" by adjusting his playing/hitting. an electronic player is more at the mercy of the live mixer as there is no direct sound output, only what is amplified and controlled (in large part) by someone other than the drummer. so spend some time working on the stage/headphone mix and levels. like someone said, if you can't hear, you can't groove. that said, all electronic drums must be adjusted for the individual playing the drums. EACH drum and cymbal can and should, at minimum, be adjusted in terms of sensitivity, velocity curves, volume, crosstalk. this is most important for the primary "groove parts" of the kit-- snare, kick, hh/ride-- but it's a good idea to adjust all the drums. adjust the parameters of each part of the kit to suit the individual's playing style/quirks-- he'll get a more acoustically-nuanced performance out of the v-drums. you might try changing the sounds too. if the kick isn't working, change the patch you're using or change the effects that are in effect. the v-drums are an incredible tool, but you've got to take a little time with them to get the best out of them. and you know what, they DO feel different and require a slightly different touch than acoustic. no biggie, but again, the more time you spend with e-drums, the more comfortable the whole thing becomes. and the groove ensued.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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