educated drummers

[totemspock]

I have always thought that music can´t be learned by studying it at school´s. I can always tell when I hear a band if the bandmembers have attended some sort of musical education. I think it sounds really boring. It always sounds like they have been teached that "this is the way music sounds and how it should be composed" I believe that music is best learned by listening to it. Reading notes is good to know, and that you might learn on a school...but the rest is really a waste of time. I don´t think that teaching how music should sound is the right way to go. Does anybody feels the same way I do?

[AlanThomas]

I think you've just seen some boring bands...

 

Perhaps the arrangements they were playing were boring or they weren't really into the music being performed (or both).

 

I've seen performances by many bands that were reading from charts that were incredibly great! It all depends on the parts written, the direction the band leader has taken (interpretation), and the individual players skill, interpretation, and energy.

 

I think just because someone has some formal musical training doesn't mean they're an engaging performer...

[totemspock]

I guess it depends on wich type of music you are listening to. Most of the musicians that are really great don´t have a musical training. I also would like to say that I listen to almost all types of music.

[coyote]

Your writing style indicates you don't favor formal education in general. This is not a knock; whatever works in your life is not to be judged by others (and if they do judge you for it, you ought to disregard it).

 

Music schools teach would-be professionals how to make a living in one facet or another of the music industry. There are many levels of school, and many different avenues within each level. One person may want to perform violin concertos, while another might aspire to write commercial jingles. Plenty of folks come out of school and use what they've learned to fuel their own creativity, and they produce great original music.

 

Then there are guys like Frank Zappa, who followed exactly the path you speak of. He learned to write by listening to records, and infusing what he heard with the music happening in his own mind. His was truly one of the most wildly original musical voices of the past 50 years.

 

Originally posted by totemspock:

I have always thought that music can´t be learned by studying it at school´s. I can always tell when I hear a band if the bandmembers have attended some sort of musical education. I think it sounds really boring. It always sounds like they have been teached that "this is the way music sounds and how it should be composed" I believe that music is best learned by listening to it. Reading notes is good to know, and that you might learn on a school...but the rest is really a waste of time. I don´t think that teaching how music should sound is the right way to go. Does anybody feels the same way I do?

[AlanThomas]

Originally posted by totemspock:

Most of the musicians that are really great don´t have a musical training.

This is such a gross generalization... At most, you could say "Most of the musicians that I think are really great don't have musical training".

 

Besides, what is the definition of "musical training"? I don't have a music degree yet I have thousands of hours "musical training" in the form of private lessons, private study, practice, and classes in high school and college (not to mention playing live shows, which is one hell of an education).

 

Yes, many "great" musicians do not have formal, institutional musical training but just as many do. For example some of my favorite guitarists (whom I conside to be "great") are graduates of the Berklee College of Music in Boston:

 

John Petrucci

John Scofield

Steve Vai

 

Some "great" drummers are also graduates:

 

Vinnie Colaiuta

Joey Kramer

Mike Portnoy

Steve Smith

 

Of course, these are all individual players. And I'm sure they've all played with ensembles that wouldn't be considered "great" (I mean, Whitesnake? Yuck...).

 

The point is, is that a formal/institutional education in music doesn't preclude greatness any more than it guarantees it.

[totemspock]

The musicians you mentioned:

 

John Petrucci

John Scofield

Steve Vai

 

Some "great" drummers are also graduates:

 

Vinnie Colaiuta

Joey Kramer

Mike Portnoy

Steve Smith

 

It´s funny that you mention these musicians because they are exactly the type of guys that do not give me anything musically.....I don´t see how wailing the crap out of you´re guitar or drums can be allowed to be called music. My mother-tounge is swedish so maybe that explains my "english". Listen to Ryan Adams, Leonard Cohen, Mercury Rev, Pixies, maybe even Coldplay....this is real music!! No hard feelings, just my opinions.

[DC]

Originally posted by coyote:

Your writing style indicates you don't favor formal education in general.

[/QB]

 

Coyote, lets hear your educated writing skills, in Swedish mind you...

 

I think a formal music education takes the 'jungle' out of one's playing. I learned to read music playing sax and singing in choir, but for my main instruments; guitar, bass, drums etc., it's all by ear. Reading a chart brings in too much left brain. Playing by ear lets your right brain go to town without thinking about rules.

 

My 2 cents.

[coyote]

Obviously my detail-gathering skills need some work. My apologies to totemspock - I completely missed the *Sweden* part of things. Mea culpa.

 

There was never much 'jungle' in my playing til I learned from, and played with, some really great musicians. Learning to read/write charts didn't hurt my playing at all.... the stuff that was in my head prior to education was stuff I could never have gotten out without some training.

 

Originally posted by DC:

Coyote, lets hear your educated writing skills, in Swedish mind you...

My 2 cents.

[AlanThomas]

Originally posted by totemspock:

The musicians you mentioned:

 

John Petrucci

John Scofield

Steve Vai

 

Some "great" drummers are also graduates:

 

Vinnie Colaiuta

Joey Kramer

Mike Portnoy

Steve Smith

 

It´s funny that you mention these musicians because they are exactly the type of guys that do not give me anything musically.....I don´t see how wailing the crap out of you´re guitar or drums can be allowed to be called music. My mother-tounge is swedish so maybe that explains my "english". Listen to Ryan Adams, Leonard Cohen, Mercury Rev, Pixies, maybe even Coldplay....this is real music!! No hard feelings, just my opinions.

No, no hard feelings, we're just having a friendly discussion right?

 

I think, after looking at your example list of artists, that maybe the real issue is songwriting. Now, I'm really only familiar with 2 of the artists you mentioned: Ryan Adams and, Leonard Cohen. I like Leonard Cohen very much but haven't heard enough Ryan Adams to have an opinion.

 

But these two people are known for their songwriting, not necessarily their skill and/or talent on a particular instrument.

 

I don't know if Leonard Cohen plays any instrument, and I was not particularly impressed with Ryan Adams' guitar playing the one time I saw him play on television, though I did like the song somewhat.

 

As far as you're characterization of the players that I mentioned "wailing the crap out of" their instrument, well, I think you're making another gross generalization.

 

I don't think John Scofield could ever be accused of "wailing the crap" out of anything at all, and while Steve Vai is well known for his flamboyant solos, he is also capable of some quite delicate playing as well.

 

And my god, Vinnie Colaiuta is one of the most highly respected drummers and session musicians in the world! And dude, played on TWO Leonard Cohen albums!

 

Furthermore, while Frank Zappa may have largely been self-taught, he continually surrounded himself with fine, well educated musicians: Steve Vai and Vinnie Colaiuta among them!

[totemspock]

Apologie accepted of course!

 

Maybe you´re right...songwriting is the issue yes. But that is also something you learn at schools? Anyway I meant that student´s maybe learn to play at school´s but I think that there creativity is lacking because they get lazy or something....aaahhh I can´t express myself..

 

Lenoard Cohen may not be so highly skilled, but he has something far more important. Talent. He has so so so many damn good songs. Listen to Chelsea Hotel. Listen to Avalanche and try to sing and play the guitar at the same time. a little bit impressing anyway.

 

Listen to Ryan Adams - La cienega just smiled and wildflowers, or just buy the whole "Gold album". Simple and beatiful!

 

I´ve heard some steve vai songs and some other songs from the guys you mentioned. I really don´t have anything else to say about them except that i´m sure they´ve done som good songs also.

 

Can you find out wich songs by Leonard Cohen Vinnie Coaliuta plays on?

 

I´ve listened to dream theater with mike portnoy and they have som nice songs...but when they get to progressive my interest starts to decay (right way to say it?.

 

The bottom line is that you can have all the skill in the world but if you can´t do nothing with it it useless according to me. The music have to sound good....wich of course is a matter oc personal taste...but for me: As little wailing as possible. The best songs according to me are the simplest ones (and by "simple" I of course don´t mean lo-fi. I love hi-fi:)

 

Listen to Mercury Rev - Goddess on a hiway and/or Coldplay - The scientist. Two beatiful songs with no guitarsolos:) (if I remember correctly.

Give a review of them and say what you think about them.

[AlanThomas]

I think we're really pretty much in agreement Totemspock...

 

Especially when it comes to songwriting. I agree with you that it cannot be taught. You can be taught elements of composition: melody, harmony, counterpoint, song form, etc. but those are the tools not the art. Just because I know that mixing blue paint and yellow paint gives you green, doesn't make me Van Gogh...

 

There are three Leonard Cohen albums listed in Vinnie Colaiuta's discography on his web site: "I'm Your Man" 1988, "Future" 1992, and "More Best of Leonard Cohen" 1997. I assumed he played on all the tracks, but I guess that's not necessarily true. And that's why I originally said 2 albums, because "More Best of..." is an anthology & probably didn't have any newly recorded material.

 

I'm with you on the progressive stuff. Even though I can appreciate, on a technical level, the skill of the player, a long drawn out solo doesn't move me emotionally...

[totemspock]

I can say nothing but: I agree with you to! this must have been one of the best discussions I ever had. maybe. see you. I´m going to listen to Leonard Cohen and see if I can trace any progressive stuff:) then I will haunt you down Allan!!!!!!!!!

[Jazzman]

Totemspock, I play by ear, and can't read music.

 

I have to agree with you to a point. Even though in my case playing by ear was easy for me and allowed me to improvise with freedom. I've been playing on the drums drums since I was 7 years old that started in 1957.

 

We have had similar discussions on these threads about formal education on drums. Myself I had taken drum lessons for two months(at the age of 15), because my brother was a teacher at the school and wanted me to try it out. Well I did and didn't like it much. I started playing in bands at night clubs, colleges, VFW's, weddings, night clubs, frat houses, etc. for quite a while.

 

I now own a studio so I don't play out any more. I record, produce, mix and play the bass, drums, program drum machines, guitar, and keys by ear. I have other clients that come into the studio to lay down tracks for their demos and CD's.

 

So in essence I feel that if you want to go professional, to be able to play for a lot of different bands and to be a session player it might be a good idea to learn how to read. I didn't go that way, but I didn't need to either. It really is the path that you would take.

 

There are a lot of folks that are professionals out there the same way as I am. It only matters if you make it matter. My opinion.

 

Peace my friend.........

 

My Fade-out........

 

Jazzman

[progfusion74]

I think this is too personal a choice. A long instrumental passage by, say a Dram Theater, is what tugs at my heart the most. That's when I like turning of the lights, closing my eyes and getting lost in the music. So generalization is pretty much impossible

[captain54]

Originally posted by DC:

 

I think a formal music education takes the 'jungle' out of one's playing. I learned to read music playing sax and singing in choir, but for my main instruments; guitar, bass, drums etc., it's all by ear. Reading a chart brings in too much left brain. Playing by ear lets your right brain go to town without thinking about rules.

 

My 2 cents.

very inaccurate statement...

 

there is a lot more to a formal music education than just learning how to reach charts...there is music history, music theory, music appreciation, practicum, etc., all designed to deepen the love of your craft........and as far as reading charts with your left brain instead of your right, all I can say is if that's the way someone is reading charts they're doing it the wrong way....

 

I went to school for music cause I couldn't get enough of it...I wanted to learn everything about my instrument and wanted to learn how to read like it was second nature....

 

to dismiss a formal musical education as something not worth it or unnecessary, is doing a great diservice to any young, aspiring, talented musician wanting to pursue this route...

[coyote]

To bring this back to drummers... I find that I prefer playing with drummers who have been educated on (or just naturally play) another instrument as well, as they tend to play more 'musically'; they see each element of the kit as a tone color or melodic element instead of a surface upon which to bash or show off rudiments. It's the difference between, say, Terry Bozzio and Tommy Lee. Or between Carl Palmer and Keith Moon.

[Jode]

The point of music education is to give you the tools to complete whatever musical ideas are inside you. If you can do everything you want to do on your instrument or with your composition, and you don't need any help in pulling the music out of you, then great. Myself, I was fascinated by how music works and I wanted to learn more about it, from people who knew more about it than I did. If the day comes when you have a musical idea that is bigger than your ability to express it, then YOU will want some training.

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by totemspock:

Does anybody feels the same way I do?

No.

[D_dup3]

Rather late in the discussion for me to join but I must add these thoughts.

 

There are two types of education: training & experience; neither insures nor precludes the abilities to be creative or entertaining.

 

For any given type or example of music there are fans & detractors; evaluation is nearly always a matter of taste more than inherent quality.

 

The comments about "right brain vs. left brain" show a very popular misconception about how the brain functions.

I strongly suggest that you might benefit from reading Robert Jourdain's book Music, The Brain & Ecstasy which provides a wealth of information on all subjects musical & biological.

You will be quite surprised by what actually happens in the brain during the listening & performing processes.

[Jode]

Hey D- did you go to high school in Lexington, and if so, when? Henry Clay class of 1990, here. We may have crossed paths.