John Bonham

[DrummerCafe]

My sentiments exactly!!! ROFL

[djarrett]

AMEN!!

DJ

[nc]

...uh, am I missing something here...?

[k1neta]

You probably are

 

....and YEAH!!!

[Lee Flier]

Uh... maybe it's a moment of silence in Bonzo's memory?

 

Or the writer had been listening to Zep and was rendered speechless by Bonzo's incredible drumming?

 

I mean, I've had that happen.

[bass_lover]

Hi guys,

Sorry... I left the post blank because I didn't

know how to delete it.

 

But Lee's statement comes close to my feelings

about Jon Bonham. I love the way he plays and lays

down the groove behind Zep tunes like "Kashmir"and

many other songs.

 

My intention was to find out what the drumming

community thought of him. I thought he was amazing

and his groove and forceful playing still thrill me so many years after his passing.

[k1neta]

Well, I'm going to try avoiding a big flamefest here.

 

By all means, John Bonham was a very good player, indeed. But I really don't understand a lot of drummers' obsession with that guy - that good he wasn't. Personally, I can think of at least 10-20 drummers that, imo, were a lot better - if one takes all the aspects of rock drumming into consideration. Sure enough, Bonham played on a lot of classics, and did some really nifty stuff - but I would not consider groove and timing to be his strong suit.

 

It should also be mentioned that I've never been what you would call a Zep fan. And as far as musicality in that band, I always saw John Paul Jones as the real musician in zep.

 

Please note that this is mainly my opinion and personal preference.

 

bass_lover, in this drum community you'll probably find hundreds of different views on Bonham. Some worship him, others don't.

 

Taste is a weird thing, and quite unique.

[MethodAir]

One of the greatest musicians ever. And he was about 18 when they did Led Zep 1. 'Fool in the Rain' is as slick as any groove I've heard. My respect always go out to Bonham.

 

MethodAir

www.electricmountain.com

[D_dup3]

Here's my take:

Bonzo was a strong drummer in many ways (witness his continued presence via sampling, etc.) but much of what he did was enhanced & even given greater contextual substance by Page's recording & mixing techniques.

Sort of what Hendrix & Eddie Kramer achieved with Buddy Miles, who, I think, is a similar player.

 

My personal favorites are the things like "4 Sticks" (I think it is) from LZ4, where JB's relentless 4/4 is reset by the the skidding syncopations that are played around him.

[MethodAir]

"but much of what he did was enhanced & even given greater contextual substance by Page's recording & mixing techniques."

 

Many of Bonhams' best drum sounds were recorded with *1* mic. Pre pro-tools cut and paste era, and they used a variety of engineers, including Eddie Kramer. Good recording techniques enhance a great recording, they don't make one.

 

Bonhams's unique sound, groove, and vibe was so fundamental to Zeppelin that the band would no longer continue after his death.

 

MethodAir

[D_dup3]

Besides the drums/heads/etc. & micing, I think the rooms had a lot to do with the "Bonham" sound.

Big,tall rooms with good reflective qualities.

[MethodAir]

"I think the rooms had a lot to do with the "Bonham" sound.

 

There's a story told by a famous drummer about Bonham getting the same trademark drum sound out of toy kit, meant for kids, set up in someone's living.

 

How Bonham played the drums was the bottom line in his sound. And cannot be replicated by studio techniques, or different rooms.

 

MethodAir

[D_dup3]

Originally posted by MethodAir:

There's a story told by a famous drummer about Bonham getting the same trademark drum sound out of toy kit, meant for kids, set up in someone's living.

MethodAir

There are all sorts of stories told about all sorts of things...

...but if you give it a moment's critical thought you must recognize that the situation you describe is blatantly not credible.

 

That would be like saying Page got the same sound from a toy guitar as from his 12-string.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I like some of Zep's stuff...(quite a bit, actually) & I'm not trying to run-down anyone's heroes but realize there's a difference between (1) respecting a player & knowing what they are (& aren't) good at & (2) blind hero-worship.

 

But it's a big world & we all don't have to think alike.

[MethodAir]

d wrote: "you must recognize that the situation you describe is blatantly not credible."

The quote is from renowned drummer Dave Mattacks:

 

"John sat down at that miniature drumkit, and it was that sound. That bass drum sound, that snare sound, that tom sound...And I remember being half amazed at what he played and half amazed at the sound he was getting- the Zeppelin sound coming out of this little drumkit."

 

Led Zeppelin engineer, Eddie Kramer:

 

"His sound was so controlled, even though he was the loudest drummer I've ever recorded, that he didn't need any attention to the finer close-miking techniques...because of what he generated in the room."

 

And a quote from John Paul Jones:

 

"I've got some old demos that were recorded on an old cassette recorder, just sitting on a table, and the drumming sounded incredible."

 

MethodAir

www.electricmountain.com

[Tedly Nightshade]

Creating a room sound was the goal. How often is that the goal anymore?

High ceilings are where it's at.

 

Bonzo's BEST quality- he's 100% on the page with the songs, and the overall vision of the band.

[D_dup3]

Method Air, not to go 'round'n'round about it (& leaving aside questions of pitch & acoustic tone), just allow me to not believe that a toy sounds like a full-size drum kit...

this doesn't mean JB wasn't a good drummer, just that he didn't bend the fabric of reality between his hands.

The other quotes seem to me to suggest (especially Kramer's) how important the room sound was...

 

Anyhow, PEEZE OUT!

[MethodAir]

"Creating a room sound was the goal. How often is that the goal anymore?"

 

Capturing Bonhams' sound in it's most organic state was the goal. There was no need for close miking because his sound was already balanced and consistent (ie. bass drum, snare, cymbals). No need for a lot of fader adjustements. If you've spent any time in a pro studio--you'll know this is a rare quality. And you can hear the same Bonham sound on the live Zeppelin bootlegs kicking around, for the Zeppelin fans out there.

 

MethodAir

www.electricmountain.com

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by k1neta:

I would not consider groove and timing to be his strong suit.

Hahahhaha... I took a peek into this forum and this is the first thing I read. You've GOT to be kidding...

[djarrett]

You know ... this reminds me of a great lesson once taught to me by Gregg Bissonette. See, I really never thought of Ringo Starr as a "great drummer" ... just a guy that was in the right place at the right time.

Gregg set me (and about 250 other drummers) straight on this ... when he developed a clinic series based on the playing of Ringo about three years ago.

He handed out transcripts of the drum charts to Beatles songs ... and then accompanied music minus drummer tracks to those songs. WOW ... is all I can say! Was I wrong!

I think the thing here ... to recognize ... is not whether a drummer is a Dave Weckl or not (chop wise), ... but rather ... what did his signature of playing style add to the overall dynamics of the songs and the group for which he played.

Led would have not been Led ... without Bonham ... period!

His style and playing is uniquely his own. He is one of the people that you can listen to his playing and say ... THAT ... is Bonham. His style has been so identified ... that people now say ... "he plays with a Bonham style," ... or producers will say ... "play it like Bonham!"

To be elevated into that type of recognition places you in the drummers hall of fame ... regardless of what some may think of his playing style, or chops.

Afterall, every great drummer that has become a well known player ... was simply at the right place ... at the right time. There are many fantastic drummers that will never be known ... because they will never have the path of opportunity and preparedness meet!

 

Just my thoughts,

DJ

[Tedly Nightshade]

"------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You know ... this reminds me of a great lesson once taught to me by Gregg Bissonette. See, I really never thought of Ringo Starr as a "great drummer" ... just a guy that was in the right place at the right time.

Gregg set me (and about 250 other drummers) straight on this ... when he developed a clinic series based on the playing of Ringo about three years ago.

He handed out transcripts of the drum charts to Beatles songs ... and then accompanied music minus drummer tracks to those songs. WOW ... is all I can say! Was I wrong!"

 

How totally cool! Was I ever wrong- I didn't think a chops head like Bissonette would be nearly so musically oriented. So it goes both ways!

[Jotown]

Great musicians have a sound, a thing that they do. Finding that voice is what makes a musician great. Bono had that for sure.

 

Now the drummer in the Dave Mathews band definitelsy has that also. He may have alot more apparent chops than Bono, but what makes him a great drummer is his sound.

[k1neta]

Chip - although you had a good laugh, that was not my intent And no, I am not kidding.

 

I don't feel Bonham's playing grooves much, compared to, let's say, a good jazz drummer.

Obviously what we consider to groove is fairly individual. I've very rarely heard rock music that really grooves.

 

Furthermore, as I said earlier - I've never been much of a Zep fan, in fact I find much of their music boring. I could never tolerate Plant's manic screaming (and posing, for that matter). Heck, I don't even care much for Jimmy Page's lead guitar playing.

But by all means, those guys were good at what they did. And Page wrote a few really good songs, although I personally don't care much for them.

 

As dj so eloquently put it, JB was the right man for the band he was in. He was a good player in a good band. Still, that does not make him a demi-god, saint, or whatever high position many want to promote him to. All those old musicians that sometime were great musicians were just that. Musicians that made good music - nothing more.

 

Point of the day.

Maybe the young drummers of this day rather should focus on developing their own skills, than trying to mimic Bonham or whatever old hero out there - maybe ultimately develop their own signature sound and style of playing.

Having idols is all good of course, but there always comes a time when you have to put yourself in there somewhere.

 

Nah, we just can't let that happen, can we.

 

That just would not fit in with the rest of today's poseurs and sorry excuses for rock musicians (if one would call it rock).

 

Ah well, went on a tangent there. Nevermind.

 

A good laugh to you all.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Plant's vox and Page's solos were never the strong suit. Page's composed parts are phenomenal, really elegant, creative, and effective.

Jazz drumming is a very different thing, but still- One of the great things is when the whole ensemble grooves/swings TOGETHER- this is actually pretty rare these days, something like the Hot Club of France really all swung together as a group- as did Led Zeppelin.

Obviously he's no Elvin Jones! But Elvin is no Bonham either, couldn't do that to save his life. That's OK.

[Lee Flier]

k1neta,

 

Sorry but you're not making any sense. Bonham was not a jazz drummer, so why should he groove like a jazz drummer? He grooves like himself, which is a whole other thing. If you don't get it, or Led Zep or rock music in general just isn't your thing, no biggie. But that means you're not really in a position to judge Bonham.

 

Lots of drummers who cite Bonham as an influence are not young, and lots of them have found their own voices. Whether someone ever finds their own voice has nothing to do with whether or not they think Bonham or anybody else was a great drummer!

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by k1neta:

I don't feel Bonham's playing grooves much, compared to, let's say, a good jazz drummer.

That doesn't make sense, he's not a jazz drummer. That's like saying "Art Blakey doesn't rock". Jazz "groove" is not the same as "rock" groove.

 

"Groove" is micro-rhythmical. It's millisecond-territory and smaller. It's timing stresses AND dynamic stresses. I've heard a lot of drummers "do" Bonham, but seldom hear it done "perfect". If you stick his drum parts in a multitrack editor and put a metronome against it, you can see the groove happening - it's right there.

 

If you don't *hear* it - *you're not hearing it*. It's about the strongest, obvious groove one can hear; it's grooves he owns. Few drummers go in that category. Can you sit down and play something as simple as "The Levee" and make it sond *exactly like you*, recognizable as *you*, AND play it in such a way people instantly start bobbing their head to it? *That* is groove. The simple fill as the intro to "Dyer Maker" - real simple, right? I've never heard a drummer play it with the right feel. They either rush 3 or they leave out the slight accents (or they don't even hear them), or they play it too on beat, rush the end - all sorts of "simple" things that completely upset the groove - which again, was *his* groove.

 

Zeppelin had an easily recognizable *feel* because of Bonham - "The Ocean" has an awkward time but he made it *groove* - again, I've heard a lot of people play it theoretically "right", but it's not. I've heard his son play it - and *that's* not even "right" IMO.

 

When drummer can play a simple beat and have a recognizable *feel*, that's the biggest accomplishment a drummer should wish for. Phil Ruud - doesn't get more primitive than the breaks in "Back in Black", right? Record yourself playing with it, or to a metronome, playing the exact beat, trying to emulate the groove. Stick it in a .wav editor and put it against a metronome, zoom in on it down to the sample level, and look at the timing. Is it perfectly the same? If not - you're missing the groove, they groove is right there - it's just that you can't simply notate it with gross pushes and pulls.

 

Bonham didn't *swing*; that's a jazz groove, but to say he doesn't groove is... absurd.

 

Obviously what we consider to groove is fairly individual.

 

No, it's not - it's there. It's the snare being late on 4 every other measure by a millisecond, the hat being a bit louder and looser on the and of 1, the offbeat eight's on the kick being deaccented *just so* - *that's the groove*.

 

I've very rarely heard rock music that really grooves.

 

Your definition of "groove" is probably rigidly defined to an idiomatic jazz concept, probably involved swing and dotted 8 pushes/pulls.

 

Still, that does not make him a demi-god, saint, or whatever high position many want to promote him to.

 

I never said any of that, but I do say there isn't going to be a rock drummer that grooves better than him. I can't imagine it. That aside, someone who comes up with parts that fit so perfectly that are still intellectually clever, while not being stiff (Peart's possible flaw) - Bonham. Stewart Copeland comes to mind, Matt Cameron is possiby the inheritor of the throne I say Bonham has built - but he's coming *after* Bonham.

 

What Bonham did - in the brief period he was around - with rock drumming can only be compared to what Jimi did with rock guitar - IMO of course...

 

musicians were just that. Musicians that made good music - nothing more.

 

I disagree with this strongly. No, I actually I hate that greatly, how about that? Why? Because I'm tired of hearing about how everyone are on a level playing field - they're not. *Some* people are flat out born better, and what's so screwed up about the music world these days is that the world has become so politically correct that eveyone has been led (pun intended) to believe that really nothing more than practice separates them from being Bonham, or Hendrix, or Michael Jordan , or Michael Schumacher, or whoever - NO - it's not like that. Bonham out of the gate was the real deal from the start. I can play 10 different basic drum patterns that will be recognized as "John Bonham beats" - of which there are a lot, not to mention fills and accents - THAT is a lofty accomplishment as a MUSICIAN. Some of JB's drummers can lay claim to a few beats, Stewart Copeland, there's a few others - but Bonham reigns supreme in that category. No amount of work will make the average person accomplish that.

 

He wasn't just "good".

 

Maybe the young drummers of this day rather should focus on developing their own skills, than trying to mimic Bonham or whatever old hero out there - maybe ultimately develop their own signature sound and style of playing.

 

Nope. They should learn from their antecedents and then discard it. Or face the possibility of retreading territory someone else has already pioneered.

 

Name one person who has come up with a unique style through ignorance....?

 

Having idols is all good of course, but there always comes a time when you have to put yourself in there somewhere.

 

Of course, but everyone has antecedents, including Bonham. There isn't any such thing as a bolt from the blue. You can pretend you're in a vacuum by yourself, reinventing the wheel, but you're just recombining what you already know in hopefully a new context. NO ONE has come up with something completely original, but ideas amalgamated from influences - the more disparate the less obvious. Trying to have *no* influences will hinder the process.

 

Again - show me one famous drummer who doesn't claim to have influences...?

[Tedly Nightshade]

"I've very rarely heard rock music that really grooves."

 

Fair enough! There's a lot of mediocre rock music out there, to be sure.

In large part, because the lessons someone like Bonham/Jones have to offer are somehow missed...

[Lee Flier]

10 pts. Chip! No, make that 20 pts. at least!

[k1neta]

Lee -

maybe I'm not making too much sense. Sometimes expressing what I'm meaning to say in a foreign language isn't that easy. On the groove thing, what I should have said in the first place is that I don't hear Bonham "groove" as much as a good jazz player (also, the jazz player in this context, was merely an example). There's a whole lotta difference. Without going further into the textbook technicalities on what groove is, I just don't hear much of it - and that is regardless of genre. This from one who doesn't care about the name - just the music. Then again, it just might be my ears.

 

As said before, I never were a Zep fan. But rock is indeed my thing, fyi I have been a rock drummer for almost 20 years (as well as within classical/melodic percussion). I'm still learning jazz, but am nowhere good enough to really play it. So there.

 

I've never intended to judge Bonham and his capabilities/chops and such. I just suggest that people might be a putting a tad bit much into his (or any other drummers) "importance" in the grand scheme of things, that's all. Sure, I have favourite musicians that I've learnt a lot from - but my life does not revolve around them. That being said, I don't imply yours do (or anyone else who's posted on this thread) - but I got to say I've met a few who's filled that criteria.

 

On that other thing - that was more a general critical observation on what I feel is useless worshipping. Too many players forget to put theirselves into the equation so to speak.

And I find that worrying, maybe even a bit alarming. In my own case, the day I no longer question why I play what I play (or why I go for a certain "sound") it's time to do something different.

 

Learning the tricks and techniques of the "big ones" is fine, but ultimately it should be oneself who decides how to apply the knowledge acquired.

 

Does that make any more sense?

 

-----------

Maybe the young drummers of this day rather should focus on developing their own skills, than trying to mimic Bonham or whatever old hero out there - maybe ultimately develop their own signature sound and style of playing.

 

Nope. They should learn from their antecedents and then discard it. Or face the possibility of retreading territory someone else has already pioneered.

 

Name one person who has come up with a unique style through ignorance....?

Chip - I think you misread my intended point totally there. Like I stated later on in that paragraph. Picking up on what the really good ones do is all good, the main thing is that you do something creatively with what you've learned after the fact. I'm not suggesting one should stay in a cave and never so much as listen to another player, not to mention be influenced by one.

 

Heck, I probably sound like at least 10 different drummers when I play, sometimes all of them at the same time. But then again, probably nobody sounds like me. Although I have a unique style of playing, well so does almost everyone else, and that doesn't make me the world's greatest drummer.

 

We disagree a fair deal Chip. Let's just leave it at that.

[Tedly Nightshade]

I had a 1970 Ludwig kit for a while... if Bonzo hadn't done his thing, it would have been a lot more like a '68 Ludwig kit, and instead of trading the whole kit for a K I'd still have it.

Unfortunately Bonham's legacy has been great big loud Rock drum kits, for the most part...

To that extent, we'd all be a whole lot better off if Bonzo hadn't ever existed!

To compare him to all the Big Rock Kit players since is pretty dismaying. He was the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.

Me? I Big Rock Drums... but I love Bonham!

It's WAY too bad that things went that way, all the good parts never get followed up on, and people ape what's easy....

[MethodAir]

The comparison to "jazz drumming", is out of context. BTW, Bonham was and is a big influence on drummers from all genres, (including some of the best, Vinnie Colaiuta, Dave Weckl and Jeff Porcaro), not because of hero worship, but because he was an awesome drummer.

 

MethodAir

www.electricmountain.com