DrummerCafe Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 There are a number of factors that determine the sustain of a sizzle cymbal. Weight and thickness of the cymbal.Placement of the rivets or where the holes are drilled.Number of rivets used.The weight of the rivet.The angle of the cymbal on the stand. Let me go through each one of these points. The weight and thickness of the cymbal being used does matter. If you use a heavy cymbal, that is thick from the bow to the edge, you won't get as much natural sustain; it doesn't vibrate very long. Thin cymbals vibrate the longest. Just think of those old 24+ inch rides that drummers like Buddy Rich used. They were so big (and thin) that it was just a HUGE wash of sound. Talk about a ROAR!!! For the best results, use a cymbal that tapers in it's thickness. Strike it and lightly touch the surface of the cymbal; you should feel it vibrating for a fair amount of time. This brings me to my second point: rivet placement. You will want to drill you holes where there is the most "natural" vibration in the cymbal. This will help keep the rivets sizzling. The typical playing area on a Ride Cymbal is two inches in from the edge. If you are too close to the edge all you get is a "wash" and no stick definition. If you are up on the bow of the cymbal it will sound a lot drier; increasing as you move towards the bell of the cymbal. You'll want to find a place where it's not in the way of your playing area ... and yet will vibrate freely. WARNING! I highly recommend that you place the cymbal on a stand with it slightly tilted towards so you can find the heaviest portion of the cymbal. You may want to spin the cymbal, then play on it a bit. The heaviest portion will find it's way towards the bottom, which will be right where your playing is. DON'T PUT A RIVET THERE!!! Number of rivets. I don't believe that more rivets make for a longer sustain; just louder and fuller. The may be a little more sustain using more rivets only because one portion of the cymbal may be vibrating longer. Having more rivets increases your chance of finding that sweet spot. The weight of the rivet and it's make-up will also effect the sound. The lighter the rivet, the easier it will bounce on the cymbal. The heavier rivets require more natural cymbal vibration to keep the going. Some people use those brass paper clasps; you know the ones you push through several papers to keep them together. They are VERY light and bounce well. If you don't plan to bend the ends of the rivet or make them permanent, make sure they aren't too light; they'll bounce right out of the hole. Also, if they are too light, they won't be very loud. Last, but not least, the angle of your cymbal. If you play with the cymbal horizontal with the floor, you've got gravity pushing against the rivet and will make the sustain shorter. Tilting the cymbal allows the rivet to vibrate more freely. You'll have to experiment with this; finding an angle that works for you as a player ... plus finding an angle that the rivets like. This will probably mean you will have to raise or lower the height of the cymbal to accommodate the angle. The weight and type of cymbal will determine this as well. Those old Big Band drummers set their rides up horizontal to the floor and got TONS of sizzle ... why? ... because the cymbals were so THIN. The vibration of the cymbal was so much that it worked against the gravity ... so it worked. If you are using a ride cymbal by today's "standards", I don't think you can play it in a horizontal position and get the same amount of sustain. They are making thinner rides for jazz, so unless you have one of these types of cymbals, you are going to have to work with the angle. The "angle" concept was first made known to me when I was studying to be a classical percussionist while studying in St. Louis. My teacher showed me how playing a tambourine, horizontal to the floor, made the zills (jingles) very dry and short. For more sustain and looseness to the sound, you tilt the tambourine to allow the zills to vibrate against each other ... and not have the gravity pushes directly down on them. I just took this concept and applied it to the sizzle cymbal (and other vibrating instruments) and it has really seemed to work for me. Whew! My fingers are tired ..... I'm done for now! LOL [ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Bartman ] Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Thanks Bart! Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Hi Bart, thanks for providing the information. Really indepth, excellent! Would I be able to get one of these at a drum shop or is your suggestion of putting one together the better way to go? Drum shops would provide this service wouldn't they? I have yet to see one of these in a shop, or in fact in a catalog. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, I should probably contact and inquire with one of the manfacturers. I do like the larger cymbals for Jazz if played correctly. I saw and played on one and it was a 24", I believe a Zildjian in a local drum shop, and I can see how the revits in that cymbal would be awesome if placed in the sweet spot. It also makes sense that the thinner type cymbals would provide a nicer vibration for the revits, based on position. The cymbal that I was refering to in the other thread was not too good, sounded really blah! The revits were pretty heavy, short and I believe were brass. The sizzle was short lived. I would use this type of cymbal as a speciality type cymbal in accenting a song were required. You mentioned that you have revits in a set of hat cymbals, (just the upper one right)? What size did you put them in? I would think that it sounds pretty sweet, especially if played very slightly opened, then closed. Interesting............. How about a Gong type? Probably wouldn't be able to stop the sizzle! Thanks Bart for commenting on this topic. It is very helpful. Jazzman.........over and out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Nice Bartman. I think though, instead of worrying about drilling, placement, rivet #'s and make-up...I would just try a bunch of different riveted cymbals out. Unfortunately, I don't see them too much in drum shops...so, I guess there is some art mixed with the science of sizzle. They are cool aren't they? felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 I'll have to show you guys a pic of this 24" Zildjian pang I have with rivets...it's a cool cymbal. I should play it more-I've basically forgotten about it. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted November 10, 2001 Author Share Posted November 10, 2001 Yeah, I'm all for finding the right cymbal, already made from a manufacture ... it's a lot easier, and as Felix said, you can try them out. I wouldn't do any drilling unless you are willing to ruin the cymbal. It's kind of risky if you ask me ... but it can be done. You may create something wonderful, but I personally wouldn't do it to my favorite cymbal. I have a friend that made a cool cymbal for me; he's a custom drum builder and cymbal repairman. He takes broken cymbals that can not be repair, cuts them down to a splash size cymbal and puts in some rivets ... calls them Splivets (Splash/Rivet). The cymbal I have has a large, sloping bell and is fairly thick ... so it probably used to be medium to medium thin crash ... fairly large originally because of the bell size. Anyway, it's a cool Effects cymbal ... kind of like an Ice Bell, but not as harsh ... and it sizzles! Fun stuff! Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Hey, Bart! Wow! I love rivets! Some additional thoughts for your great thoughts above: I had a 24" Wuhan that I had Wuhan add rivets to years ago. I had a friend in Wuhan that would pick extra thin killer cymbals for me. Do not be fooled. More is not better. The more rivets you add, the more weight you are placing on a cymbal. This will actually kill the sustain. I ended up selling this cool cymbal because it did not meet my expectations. Hindsight says, I should have had about 4 or 6 rivets for this monster cymbal. Instead, I had one about every 4 inches around the perimeter. Will not make this mistake again. Here is a cool way to get the same effect. I have a 22" Sabian Hand Hammered China. I play it inverted (as most do). One top of the China (seperated by one felt), I use a Sabian Alien disk that is inverted. This alien disk is a heavy semi-flat Ice bell Hand Hammered bell with Rivets. The way I have it suspended directly on top of the China, it allows the rivets to ring on the China. This also allows me to get a funky ride affects on the Alien Disk and groove some sounds between the disk and the china. I think it is a real resourceful use of effect cymbals and allows me to keep from drilling the china! Give it a try! DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 I totally agree with you DJ regarding the number of rivets. Reading my original post makes it sound like I'm saying that more is better ... but you are definitely correct. To me, 6 or more rivets is a LOT ... probably too much. I didn't really spell that out very well. Another thing I've done successfully is taping a coin to my ride cymbal for a sizzle effect. To do this, place a coin on the ride and take a piece of tape (maybe electrical tape) and put it across the coin and the cymbal ... like applying a BandAid. Make sure that you don't put tape over both entire coin and sandwich it down. The end of the tape is on top of the coin and extends off towards the bell ... which you then adhere to the cymbal. This should look like one of those "dangling chads" that Gore kept pointing at in Florida. Let that coin flop around. When you play the ride cymbal, the coin will buzz against the cymbal. On a personal note, make sure the coin isn't scratching the cymbal. It's not sliding back and forth on the cymbal ... just lightly bouncing, so it shouldn't be a problem. I've never had trouble with this. You know, I need to start charging you guys for giving away all my little secrets. Can this new Forum software handle secure server forums? I've already got my graphics going ... http://home.swbell.net/sondage/index_files/images/visa.gif http://home.swbell.net/sondage/index_files/images/mastercard.gif http://home.swbell.net/sondage/index_files/images/amex.gif http://home.swbell.net/sondage/index_files/images/discover.gif Or you can just use my payment order form on my secure server: https://www3.security-one.com/BAEproductions/order.html My wife and child will appreciate me finally making some money for all the time I spend here! LOL [ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Bartman ] Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzman Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Pretty funny Bart!!HaHa Do you take speed pass? Thanks for the info guys, I need to experiment too. I've noticed that different smaller sizes of chains laying on a cymbal can add sustain vs. a larger type, again weight of cymbal and the chain beads or links. I think when a cymbal is hit with a stick the wave action travels around the cymbal making the chain sizzle, then it doesn't, then it does again. That is why I don't like chains. The revits are better because through the wave action of when the stick hits the cymbal this wave action travels all aroung the cymbal making the sizzle sound continious, not in cycles because the revits are all around the cymbal. I hear this all of the time when I hit the cymbal. Another thing about chains is if the cymbal is hit harder with the chain on it the chain can leave the cymbal leaving gaps of sizzle sound, which makes the cymbal sound like crap. I have a chain attachment but I don't like the sound. Just a couple of more thoughts.......... My fade out........ Jazzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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