The New Breed

[Steve77]

Hey guys this is my first post on this forum and I want to say Hello and one other thing: HELP!

 

Can anyone please help me out here? Im getting back into reading and these dotted notes and rests are really confusing to me. If you have Gary Chesters book Im on exercise II-A and II-B (pages 16 & 17).

I just need some help on counting these out. I have no problems with eighth notes or quarters, and I know when you put the dot after them it increases the value by one half. I just need some help on counting so that I can get a better grasp on this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer some assistance.

[DrummerCafe]

This is kind of difficult to do via typing, but I'll try. I would highly recommend that you try and grab a lesson from a local drummer instructor or musician who reads.

 

First, you need to choose which way you plan to count the sixteenth notes. Here's two methods that I use:

1 e & u 2 e & u 3 e & u 4 e & u

or

1 ta te ta 2 ta te ta 3 ta te ta 4 ta te ta

 

Here's how to pronounce these syllables:

e = just like the letter E

& = and

u = like the word "uh"

 

ta = use Latin vowel pronunciation; it would sound like the first syllable in the word "top", like using the short "a" sound in American English.

 

te = use Latin vowel pronunciation; it would sound like the first syllable in the word "tape", like using the long "a" sound in American English.

 

 

Okay, now that we've established two counting systems, I'll use the first one to count out the first two measures of page 16 (II-A) of Gary Chester's NEW BREED.

 

I first recommend that you count, OUT LOUD, full measures of sixteenth notes. When you come to the note that you would play, CLAP your hands. I will bold face the count that you should clap.

 

Here's the first measure:

1 e & u 2 e & u 3 e & u 4 e & u

 

Here's measure two:

1 e & u 2 e & u 3 e & u 4 e & u

 

If you see a Dotted Eighth Note OR a Dotted Eighth Rest, it needs to last for three sixteenth notes or three of your syllables as you count.

 

Hopefully this will get you started. If you have any further questions, feel free to email me directly by visiting my website.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[rlhubley]

First of all, great advice Bart. It's clear and simple, the way all education SHOULD be!

 

Secondly, I'd like to offer my opinion on picking the right sylables to suit you the best. For drummers and percussionists, strings, and piano, I fimly beleive the "1 e & uh" sylables make the most since. Here's why. The whole "1 tee tae tah" sound is hard to pronounce rapidly. I think it was designed that way on purpose, because i think it was meant for vocalist, brass, and wind instruments, but mainly the latter two. To play a wind or brass instrument requires specific separation of notes, stacatto if you will. This is commonly done via the player's tounge. This "1 tee tae tah" sytem helps develop the tounge.

That's just my thought on the subject.

[Steve77]

Bart,

First off, thanks a lot.

 

I am taking lessons with someone here and we are working through this book. I guess you could say that I am working ahead just a little bit.

 

I use the 1 e & a method myself, I just get a little intimidated by the dots.

 

I will be checking your website.

 

Thanks again,

Steve

[djarrett]

Bart ... You ARE the man!

 

Thanks for your concise and thorough explanation of this!

 

DJ

[DrummerCafe]

Thanks for the kind words rlhubley.

 

Originally posted by rlhubley:

The whole "1 tee tae tah" sound is hard to pronounce rapidly.

 

I would agree with you here, but not fully. I can count 1 ta te ta clearly for with no problems at quarter note equals 120 bpm. On good days I can go even faster (140+). The 1 e & u begins to slur together at faster tempos. It does allow you to go faster than the Eastman Counting System (which is the 1 pa te ta thing), but is not clear rhythmically ... at least to me.

 

I use both ... and really prefer the Eastman method because it's aurally clear and distinct. Maybe it's because I play tabla ... who knows. I'm an avid believer in counting ... FIRST. Attendees of my drum/percussion clinics have stated that the quote they remember most is:

IF YOU CAN'T SAY IT, YOU CAN'T PLAY IT!

 

So, I agree that the "standard" counting method is probably faster than the Eastman counting method; but you sacrifice rhythmic quality for the speed. Basically it comes down to what you are comfortable with.

 

SIDE NOTE: The Eastman Counting System did NOT originate at the Eastman School of Music ... as many have supposed. Eastman is just the last name of the individual who created the counting system.

 

The other nice thing about the Eastman Counting method is that it provides a means to count 32nd notes as well. Here's what that would look like:

1 t ta t te t ta t ... etc.

It's all on the tip of the tongue, so speed and clarity come with practice.

 

Just for grins, let's talk about Eighth Note Triplets. There are several "standard" ways of counting triplets. Here's the most popular:

1 trip let 2 trip let ... etc.

It's sluggish to say the least, and not easy to say.

 

Another one is:

1 & u 2 & u 3 & u 4 & u

I don't care for this one either. Although you can really get the speed going, it's slurred at faster speeds AND sounds too much like the way you count sixteenth notes.

 

The Eastman Counting System would count Eighth Note Triplets like this:

1 la li 2 la li 3 la li 4 la li

 

Here "la" is like the "ta" ... and "li" sounds like our fellow member's name ... Lee.

 

Eastman also provides for Sixteenth Note Triplets or Sextuplets; standard counting does not. Here's it is:

1 ta la ta li ta 2 ta la ta li ta ... etc.

Basically you just insert the syllable "ta" between the Eighth Note syllables.

 

So this is why I prefer the Eastman method. Although it may not be "as fast" (to some) as the "standard" counting method, it surpasses in all other areas when counting is needed.

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

 

This message has been edited by Bartman on 09-25-2001 at 01:56 PM

[Gaddabout]

Originally posted by Bartman:

IF YOU CAN'T SAY IT, YOU CAN'T PLAY IT!

 

This holds true in any kind of communicative art. I've had many writing coaches preach the gospel of moving the lips and saying the words as one writes. It becomes less important to move the lips with a lot of practice, but the principle of speaking and listening as an accompianiment to any other type of communication is always preferable. Our brain is more likely to store in in fast recall for future use, speeding up the learning process.

 

I have a friend who was a pyscholinguist and researcher at UT-A in the 70s. He was involved in a study of dyslexics. His research suggests alternating motion between right and left sides of the body while reading out loud may have the effect of doubling the dyslexic's brain power.

[felix stein]

Uh, isn't this person learning to run before learning how to walk?

 

Why hasn't someone suggested an easier book to learn how to read?

[Steve77]

Felix,

Thanks for your concern.

 

I am very comfortable with reading I just find the dotted notes and rests to be confusing. Once I can get a feel for it I think I'll be all right.

[rlhubley]

Sounds like the Eastman system is THE system. Although, I'll be sticking with the one I've been using since i was only a lad. As for eighth-note triplets, I prefer this: 1 pa let 2 pa let 3 pa let. For sixteenth-note triplets i use: 1 pa let & pa let 2 pa let & pa let. I disagree firmly with using 1 & uh method to count triplets, it confuses the counter with one eighth note and 2 sixteenth notes(which uses the same syllables 1 & uh).

Bart, I applaud the Eastman method and think it should be taught more often, this is the first time I've ever heard of it. I also agree 100% with you, in that the choice of syllables is a personal one. But to have knowledge of the other systems is wise. It's the same thing with grip, head choice, positioning of equipment, etc. I try to learn multiple ways of doing things, so that i can make an educated decision to use the method truly best suites me.

[Gaddabout]

Originally posted by Steve77:

I am very comfortable with reading I just find the dotted notes and rests to be confusing. Once I can get a feel for it I think I'll be all right.

 

I may get some disagreement here, but I found Anthony J. Cirrone's Portraits In Rhythm an excellent book to exercise reading skills. When I auditioned for the Marines' drum and bugle corps eons ago my auditoner explained they use this book extensively. I didn't quite grasp his concept of reading everything in 1/1 regardless of time signature, but his demonstration was very impressive.

 

Reading music, like reading language, is a matter of time, repetition and exposure. Do it everyday, like you might read the morning newspaper, and you'll be where you want to be in no time. Dotted notes are a little more complicated to sight read, especially when combined with ties or followed by rests. If you can get to the point where you are looking a measure ahead as you play, you'll learn to anticipate those quickly.

 

Apologies if I'm speaking down to you. Reading music is a topic near and dear to my heart. I'm just elated to hear another drummer struggle in earnest to learn how to do it!

[DrummerCafe]

I'm in total agreement concerning the reading in 1/1 when it comes to sight reading.

 

The concept is to just read the rhythm; don't worry about the barlines or the meter ... it's just math. Each note and rest has a duration regardless of the meter. To be truthful, you could write music with NO barlines if you wanted to. The meter really just establishes what the pulse of the music should be and how the tempo is related to the written notation.

 

Here's the flaw in using this concept on a regular basis. Music DOES have a pulse to it. Anthony Cirone didn't write Portraits in Rhythm to JUST create something difficult to read. If there's a 2/8 bar then a 3/8 bar, the audience should feel the meter changes. If they can't, then what's the point? A lot of students have passed through my studio over the years, and the one thing I've tried to instill in them is to make music. Simply playing a bar of written sixteenth notes isn't enough. We need to make it a piece of music; use phrasing, dynamics, etc.

 

Playing the piece like it's a monotone speech from your least favorite politician is just plain silly. Sight reading it for the first time is a different story. If you have to read the piece down from start to finish, and it's full of meter changes, etc., I'm all for using the 1/1 concept. But if you are taking the piece and turning the notations into music ... we need to adhere to what the composer had in mind. Music notation is just a way to convey the thoughts of the composer to the performer. It's up the the performer to convey those thoughts to the audience ... the way the composer intended. Sure we need to have some liberty to put our own personality into the piece ... but the notation is there for a purpose ... and it's not just to make it hard (well, most of the time).

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[felix stein]

Portrait's easy to sight read? You have to be shitting me. I'd say it's one of the damn hardest books in my library. I'm afraid to even look at it again!

 

Bologna. If you have never seen it, you aren't just going to non-chalantly breeze through it like a Harr solo, syncopation or something along those lines. I'm not a great sight reader either, probably not even a good one. Sight reading is just that, like reading a book-in my book.

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by felix stein:

Portrait's easy to sight read? You have to be shitting me. I'd say it's one of the damn hardest books in my library. I'm afraid to even look at it again!

 

I don't think anyone said it was "easy" did they? Man, if I did ... I retract my statement. There are quite a number of pieces in the book that are straight forward; not the black page as many of the pieces are.

 

As far as learning to read dotted rhythms, etc., I highly recommend the Louie Bellson books: Modern Reading Text in 4/4 and Odd Time Reading Text. These books are great for anyone who wants to increase their sight reading skills; any instrument ... not just drummers. I also use all types of music to sight read with. I might pull out a piano score or a Charlie Parker solo transcription and play just the overall rhythms ... or better still, apply it to the drumkit! Good stuff man.

 

Peace.

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[felix stein]

Oh, I was ragging on Gaddaboutit, but then I read he uses it to exercise reading skills. Yah, I'll say and dynamic skills, sticking sand multiple bounce technique.

 

No Bartman, you're cool as a cucumber this time. AGAIN...I'm watching though!

 

Notice how I never offer any advice LOL.

[Gaddabout]

Originally posted by felix stein:

Portrait's easy to sight read? You have to be shitting me. I'd say it's one of the damn hardest books in my library. I'm afraid to even look at it again!

 

No, no, no. Not an easy book. But it will expose students to a high degree of notation that most other books don't even touch. The more I practice with it, the more I realize how methodical the book was put together. I find just sitting down and running through the pages for an hour will heighten my reading speed for the rest of the week.

[felix stein]

Oh, OK- didn't mean to sound like a dick. Maybe I will crack that one in the near future.

 

When are you going to try some of those solos with your feet Gadd...? LMAO

 

Beautiful snare stuff. I mean really beautiful when played correctly.

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by felix stein:

No Bartman, you're cool as a cucumber this time. AGAIN...I'm watching though!

 

Funny you should say that ... the girls all call me El Pepino Grande. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif LOL

 

Sorry; couldn't resist.

[Steve77]

Bart,

 

I think that I'm catching on. If you could take a look at this I'd appreciate it.

 

This is how I'm reading the 5th measure:

 

1 e & u 2 e & u 3 e & u 4 e & u

 

This message has been edited by Steve77 on 09-27-2001 at 02:35 PM

[rlhubley]

Steve,

I'm at work, or I'd let you know if that's correct. Don't worry, I am sure Bart will check it out.

I want to commend you on working on one of the best(albeit one of the hardest) books that the drumming world has to offer. If you work on this book in EXACTLY the way it says to, you will be a true badass. Don't skip ahead in the book, the first 2 pages(when done correctly) will provide with weeks worth of HARD work. I reccomend vocally counting quarter notes while you play. Say them outloud, and say them load, put on headphones with the click.

 

Here's one more trick that will toss you on the ground a few times. Put the click to play ONLY one beat of the measure. For example, only let it click on the one, the rest of the measure will be clickless. This will force you to internalize the time, and will also be like a checkpoint every time you get back to the one. You can also do a cycle of 4. This is really tough and will probably require some sort of drum machine. Ms.1, click goes on 1. Ms. 2, click is on 2, ms.3, click is on 3, ms. 4, click is on 4. Repeat this click pattern throughout the exercise. One more variation on the "click" exercise is to put the click on 1 for the first measure, and then let X number of measures go by without the click, and then after the X number of measures passes, the pattern starts over with the click on 1.

 

Those work well in any exercise!!

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by Steve77:

This is how I'm reading the 5th measure:

 

1 e & u 2 e & u 3 e & u 4 e & u

 

You got it ... that's correct.

 

I think rlhubley's suggestions are great. Before you tackle playing with just the click on one beat per bar (measure), try putting it so you hear it clicking on 2 and 4. Since over 90% of the music we play uses the backbeat or weak beat on 2 and 4, it's a cool way to make these exercises groove.

 

Also, I'm all for couting out loud ... just the down beats of 1, 2, 3, 4. But before you do that, I think you should be able to subdivide by counting 1e&u (etc.) out loud ... regardless of what you are playing. Once you can do that, then try just saying the down beats or numbers and leave out the divisions ... regardless of what you are playing.

 

Here's one more thing I learned from a guy a number of years ago. Try playing the exercises while doing the following: Always count the downbeats (1, 2, 3, 4) regardless of what you play ... BUT... also say ONLY the subdivisions that you actually play. For example, in measure 5 of page 16 you would say:

1 - - u 2 - - u 3 - & - 4 - & -

 

It's kind of cool in that you are merging the two previous ways of counting that we've mention ... like a hybrid. Try it sometime. When I work on this stuff, I first make sure I can play it counting all the subdivisions, secondly be able to count the way I just described, and lastly the way rlhubley mention ... just the downbeats or numbers.

 

Have fun!

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[frozen_dup1]

Where can I learn more on the Eastman counting system?

 

Brad

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by frozen:

Where can I learn more on the Eastman counting system?

 

Well, to be honest I don't know where exactly you can learn more. I pretty much explained what it is with my earlier post. Perhaps I should create a complete lesson on my web site with graphic examples.

 

I don't know of any books that teach the Eastman counting system, but there are plenty who incorporate it. Perhaps we can answer any questions you have about it here on the forum.

 

I really like the Eastman system because it's so much like the languages used for drumming in North and South India. Here they recite the full compositions verbally before playing. It's almost like stories, passing them down from generation to generation. Rather than writing the composition, they speak it. They do, however, notate the language so that you can spoken by reading the text.

 

A basic North Indian rhythm for tabla would look like this:

Dha ge te te

Dha ge te te

Dha ge terekete

tu na kut ta

 

When you play this on the tabla it sounds JUST like the way it sounds verbally. The syllables not only mimic the sounds of the drums, but also the rhythms. It's incredibly complex ... but VERY cool.

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

 

This message has been edited by Bartman on 09-29-2001 at 11:22 AM

[frozen_dup1]

Thanks, if you get it on your website let me know. I have never heard of that system. I just basically use the 1&2&3&... for triplets 1&uh 2&uh...

and for sixteenths the 1e&uh 2e&u. I don't know how to count triplet sixteenths and 1/32's etc. Any help would be appreciated.

 

Brad

[Gaddabout]

Originally posted by frozen:

[bI don't know how to count triplet sixteenths and 1/32's etc. Any help would be appreciated.

Brad[/b]

 

Maybe I'm all wet here, but I don't think sextuplets or 32nd-notes *should* be counted note-for-note. I suggest finding a skeleton pattern that best works for what you're playing. For example, sextuplets (6:1) can be broken up into eighth-note triplets (2:1) or just eighth notes (3:1). I've never been in a situation where 32nd notes were broken up unevenly (and I can't imagine one), so if you feel you need to count them out, try sixteenth notes (2:1). It's helpful to practice alternate stickings, too.

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by Gaddabout:

Maybe I'm all wet here, but I don't think sextuplets or 32nd-notes *should* be counted note-for-note.

 

I think there is a misconception that because someone is talking about sextuplets or 32nd-notes that they are too fast to count or even that they would be played very quickly. You can play sextuplets and/or 32nd-notes in a piece of music (eg. Portraits in Rhythm) in which the tempo is extremely slow. The sextuplets sound like eighth-note triplets and the 32nd-notes sound more like typical 16th-notes.

 

When working with combinations of 16th and 32nds, or sextuplets and eighth-note triplets, it's very helpful to be able to count them out, especially if the are broken up in a syncopated fashion.

 

Incidentally, I've already shown (see my second post on this thread) how to count 32nd notes as well as sextuplets. The beauty of the Eastman system is that it provides for this, while the standard method of counting does not. If you are reading orchestral music and/or rudimental based music, having the ability to count 32nd-notes and sextuplets is a HUGE plus.

 

There's nothing wrong with doing it the way that Gaddabout suggestion; it's a great suggestion. I simply wanted to point out that these double flagged notes (32nd and sextuplets) CAN be counted out and when playing these types of notes, being able to count them CAN be VERY useful.

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[frozen_dup1]

I would like to have the ability to count 32's and the rest just like I can count out 1/16's and triplet 8's etc.. I basically have been doing what you had said Gaddabout. I would like to know this so when I am reading excerpts or learning new techniques I could actually have a count that I could follow. I know that when I speed it up I probably won't be able to count it out very well. But at least I will have counted at a slower tempo to hear the pattern. I also figure, knowing a little more can't do too much damage to my brain. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Brad

[Gaddabout]

Originally posted by Bartman:

I think there is a misconception that because someone is talking about sextuplets or 32nd-notes that they are too fast to count or even that they would be played very quickly. You can play sextuplets and/or 32nd-notes in a piece of music (eg. Portraits in Rhythm) in which the tempo is extremely slow. The sextuplets sound like eighth-note triplets and the 32nd-notes sound more like typical 16th-notes.

 

You know, you made me run and grab PiR and run through some passages just to see what it was I was thinking. I guess I wasn't aware how I've been reducing values and counting much like you suggest. It wasn't a concious thing ... at least, I don't remember making a concerted effort to cut things in half like that. And, off-hand, I vaguely remember playing a timpani part in college that had broken 32nd notes at about 60 BPM.

 

I am not aware of drum corps that teach counting notes out like that. Since doubles and diddles are prevalent, there is a great emphasis on skeleton patterns. Quite often you will first receive dumbed down charts, with all the goodies added later. Of course, *counting* with skeletons often produces "pulsing" at first, but they will beat you up until you stop doing that!

[felix stein]

I havn't bother counting 32's or sextuplets for years. There is a counting system for both but I forgot.

 

I would just double triplets and 16th's for now.