jamoflage Posted September 8, 2001 Share Posted September 8, 2001 I've been trying to figure this out forever... When playing fast and quietly on the snare drum, what helpful hints do you all have for maintaining control with the fingers... thanks J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted September 8, 2001 Share Posted September 8, 2001 This is certainly a judgement call ... and Bart may have a different opinion, but for me ... I developed finger control using French grip while studying Timpani. I transferred that finger control to use with drumset ... via ... tahdah ... Stone Stick Control ... ala fingers only! I also have utilized Weckl's approach when developing traditional grip finger control. I have learned over the years to take simple exercises and use them for everything from arm, wrist, and finger control. Hope any of this makes sense? Thanks, DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted September 8, 2001 Share Posted September 8, 2001 Yeah, it's all based around French grip, which is the most difficult to master (for me anyway). It's not something you just learn and then practice; you have to take things very slowly. I'm still trying to get it right http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif . It's all based on being totally comfortable with that fulcrum that happens where the stick falls between the thumb and the first "break" of the index finger. Once you have the stick placed correctly and comfortable, just let the stick fall to the pad and let it bounce. Find the natural bounce. Slowly start easing the rest of your fingers into it, not manipulating the stick at first, but just sort of wrapping your fingers around the stick and feel what's happening with the bounce. Gradually, you learn to let your fingers start manipulating the stick in a way that works naturally with the bounce. My teacher used to have me hold the sticks with my hands at my ears, then manipulating the sticks with my fingers to pull the sticks against gravity, up to my hands. That way you learn to understand that feel of using your fingers. Since your hands are inverted to what they're normally positioned at, you get gravity working for you. It's sort of hard to explain, but it's a method of reversing gravity so you get used to that motion. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamoflage Posted September 8, 2001 Author Share Posted September 8, 2001 Thanks for the input, more pieces of the puzzle that I can incorporate into my practice routine. So... as you switch from wrists to fingers, its acceptable for the palms to turn inward a little bit... I'll go practice now... jam o flage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 yeah, the wrist position is different with French grip. The back of the hand should be perpendicular to the floor. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernDrummer Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 Doggone you, DJ! NOW I gotta go out huntin' for 'Stone's Stick Control', to see if I'm doin' what I'm doin' is 'right'. And by 'right', I mean the optimum for myself. No allusion there that someone else may be doing it 'wrong'. Is this thing hard to find? Am I headed out on a 'Indiana Jones'-type quest? I swear DJ, if I can't find this book in 6 months, I'm gonna find ya and make ya gimme YOUR copy! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif The more I think I know, the more I find out just how ignorant I am. The negative result of stopping formal lessons when I was still fairly young (about 17 or so), I suppose. If you always do what you've always done, you'll always have what you've always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 Ok: MD ... I actually have three or four tattered copies here with me! This book is extremely requested. You should have no problem finding it. When you first get it ... you are going to look at it and say ... WHAT! IS THIS WHAT ALL THE FUSS IS ABOUT? It looks real Mama/Daddy at first. It is a great foundation. The difference between building on concrete vs. sand! Jam-o ... yes and no. Typically ... the only time I utilize this French Grip (outside of playing timpani) is when I am on the ride cymbal ... or perhaps when I am doing some sort of fast singles (perhaps some would consider this cheating!?!) I used the French technique as a basis for learning finger control ... and I utilized those learnings in set playing. This may not be what works for you. Check with your local teacher first! Sidereal ... you're on it! Thanks, DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamoflage Posted September 9, 2001 Author Share Posted September 9, 2001 Ok, some of the mystery is clearing up. Sidereal, I like the advice about getting comfortable with the fulcrum, and working with the natural bounce... but one thing... Finger technique isn't totally seperate from wrist technique is it? I mean, the fingers are still used to control the bounce when using the wrists...right? Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here. peace j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 Right, well It's different... It's just a different grip. The thing with french is that the wrists don't move. It's all in the fulcrum and the fingers. Best to learn with a teacher to really get it. Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamoflage Posted September 10, 2001 Author Share Posted September 10, 2001 When the student has money the teacher appears... (unless the student spends his money at guitar center) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 I'm feeling like I need to clear somethings up. I've got to say that I feel like I've got to walk on eggshells, watching every word, due to past threads. In regards to French grip; I think there are a few misconceptions. French grip was orginally used when playing timpani and is a bit different than previously described. The thumbs are on the top in the fulcrum, but the radius bone rotates around the ulna bone of the forearm. It's almost like the Traditional grip of the left hand, but the arm rotates the other direction to make the stroke. So the wrist moves, but it doesn't bend like in Matched grip. The fingers are a part the grip, just like they are for a standard Matched grip. As Sidereal mentioned, the back of the hand is perpendicular to the floor. The entire arm kind of looks like a crooked "S". When playing timpani, the arm is drawn in towards the body. Picture a French Waiter with a folded towel draped over his arm and you've got it! LOL Finger technique isn't totally seperate from wrist technique is it? I mean, the fingers are still used to control the bounce when using the wrists...right?. Well, it's a separate technique in that you can JUST use fingers at times, however the fingers CAN be used to control the bounce when using more wrists. Arms, wrists and fingers all work together. One may work more than the other depending on speed and volume. In French grip, the main part of the stroke comes from the rotation of the forearm. If you play very fast and soft ... then it might be all fingers. So the misconception is that French grip is all fingers; it's not. Every grip can use fingers only ... but that's not necessary what the grip is about. I don't think anyone here is thinking that, but I wanted to clarify. The other point I wanted to bring up; what you can do with your fingers in French grip .... you can also do with American grip (Matched grip on timpani). With French grip, since the arm/wrist are turned so that the thumb is on top, the portion of the fingers that are used is the meaty section of each digit near the first knuckle (closest to the palm). In Matched or American grip, the fulcrum is such that the first knuckle of the first (pointer) finger is up. The portion of the fingers used in this grip is usually between the second and third knuckle of each digit (depending on how long your fingers are). Another common grip would be the German grip. This grip would have the back of the hand on top, parallel with the floor. Fingers are used in this grip as well ... but typically on the pads of each digit. French, American and German grips all apply to timpani AND drumset. The can ALL be used to play soft or loud ... slow or fast. Some people prefer one grip over another, others use a particular grip at given times (ie. DJ on his Ride cymbal). Hope this helps clear up a few things. I would HIGHLY recommend finding someone who can show you the correct techniques and grip choices. You don't want to develop bad habits early on. Learn the basic technique, then adapt it and use what works best for you. Billy Cobham & Jim Chapin use (and teach) dozens of different variations on all of these grips and apply them with the Moeller Method. ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamoflage Posted September 10, 2001 Author Share Posted September 10, 2001 Hey thanks yall! Bartman, I don't care what they say about you, you're alright in my book! hehehehe But seriously, after I sit down and work on these sugestions, I see what you guys mean about having an actual teacher show it to you. I like to practice a lot, and I don't want to be practicing in an inefficient way... I used to play something like the french grip, but I thought that my wrists rotating outward was wrong. This clears up a lot of the issues that I had and, basically my conclusion is that I just have to practice getting a consistent stroke at all speeds and volumes, regarrdless of which grip I use. Now I know a lot more about how the fingers are incorporated. Muchas Gracias Amigos! Jamoflage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 I think Bartman is taking on serious students. I think I am almost past the point of caring what nationality my grip is these days. 1st 2nd 3rd joint...fingers pull *no tea sipping please*...moeller whips and I'm COMFORTABLE PLAYING. Playing ppp is tough, but since I'm not an orchestral snare drummer I'm not worried about it. I'd much rather worry about my feet smoking, band jamming and drums singing. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.