Endorsements?

[spookmuzik]

Hello drummers etc!

 

I mostly lurk on this forum, but I'm wondering if any of you out there have endorsement deals, and how you went about getting them. Did you just get those calls once you were "famous", or did you call up and basically say "I'm cool, and I'll help you move product - gimme!"?

 

Thanks in advance,

Julian M

[djarrett]

spookmuzik:

 

I have run two drum company artist relations programs (Mapex and Slingerland) and can tell you that endorsement deals are much more than an "I'm cool" situation.

 

Most endorsers *do not* get *free* gear. Most get an endorser price on gear. This equates to about a 60% off deal. (sometimes only 50% off) Some companies are different ... some may require that the drums be purchased ... and the hardware (as much as is needed) is provided at no charge.

 

In the case of a major drummer ... or a drummer with a major act, then those guys will usually get a kit gratis. In some cases, the kit is considered a "loaner" for the tour. In other cases, the company will give the drums to the major drummer, but will require that they report the gift as income on their taxes!

 

The largest determining factor is exposure numbers. How many people will see the product (TV appearances, Major Venue Concerts, etc.)

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks,

 

DJ

[DrummerCafe]

Man ... like usual, I need to say something about this. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

I don't know why, but when young players (especially drummers) get the "I'm going to make it BIG" bug, they start talking about endorsements. Why is that?

 

I'm not saying that SpookMuzik is a young, naive player; and his questions are valid. I just wanted to make a side observation on the topic.

 

If you are a young musician, don't worry about the freakin' endorsements ... just focus on being the best musician you can be; they gravy always comes to those who wait.

 

There is absolutely no reason for a company to offer an endorsement deal to a nobody. You don't necessarily have to be "famous" (God knows I'm not), but you do have to be somebody. That somebody needs to have something that the endorsing company gets in return ... namely free advertising. If you have achieved a HIGH level of ability, etc., in your drumming and you are playing infront of a whole lot of people ... you will be able to secure an endorsement more than likely.

 

The Big Boys don't have to ask for an endorsement because their name alone sells product; the manufactures come to them. If you are playing with a national act and getting lots of exposure, you can bet you'll have no problem getting an endorsement deal ... even if your band ... uhhhh ... stinks. If the public likes you ... it's going to be positive advertising for the company.

 

Like DJ said; most players don't get "free" gear, so get that out of your head RIGHT now! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif This is especially true when it comes to drumheads, sticks, etc. Things that wear out and break would cause a company to file Chapter 11 if they gave every endorsee free stuff. My mentality on all of this has always been to strike up a relationship. I don't want to pay retail, so getting an endorsement is kind of a trade. I always endorse what I use, regardless of any deals. I sell it hard baby ... you all should know that just by the way I preach my opinions! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I let the company know that I already believe in their product; getting an endorsement has nothing to do with it. To me, that's the ONLY way to be an endorsee ... but alas, that is not reality for many players.

 

I can remember when Greg Bissonette was playing with David Lee Roth, he got $80,000 (plus all the free gear) just for playing Pearl. So it's not only "free gear" that you can get!

 

Again, I'm not hammering the question about endorsements, but wanting to address all those young players who will be jumping all this thread. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[rlhubley]

I agree with bart here. Endorsements are great, and I hope to have a few later. I am very much an endorsee of the products i use, but am not at a position where I could benefit the company too much, therefore, no deal. That will come with time. I'm only 21 years old, and have a LOT to work on. I've done quite a bit of studying, and am now trying to get more gigging and studio experience. I'm also about to step into teaching and even some writing. I'm not blowing my own horn here, the point is that, I am one of those young players. And, as a young player, I beleive thinking about endorsements is realistic, but will be a part of the future.

 

Think of endorsements as one of the fruits of your years of labor.

[Gaddabout]

I can't say I have this story 100% accurate, but I'll attempt to tell it anyway. Tre' Cool spent some of his interview with Modern Drummer bragging about how he trashes his kit every night, and the company who endorses (whom I won't name here) always provided a new one for the next show. I suppose this was supposed to represent how anti-corporate he was. I'm not sure. Anyway, in the letters section in the next issue, the representative from his sponoring drum company made it clear that, while Tre' does indeed endorse their brand, Tre' does not get free gear. In fact, Tre' paid for everyone of those sets he trashed, and he encouraged Tre' to check with his accountant on the issue. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

 

I admit to being influenced by endorsements. When I was a kid, I wanted a cherry red Tama just like Neil Peart. Later I wanted a Yamaha Studio Custom like Steve Gadd. Now I'm sort of lusting after Vinnie Colaiuta's Gretsch set-up. However, I can't imagine ever endorsing a product myself. I'm so fickle with my gear, I want to be able to change my allegiances on a whim, and I couldn't do that if I was tied to this or that company. I'd hate endorsements would ever get to be like pro sports, where companies sign the biggest of the big names for millions, then pass on the extraordinary cost to us customers.

[DrummerCafe]

Endorsees for YAMAHA don't get free gear either. Names like Gadd, Erskine, Weckl all have to turn in the "loaner" kits once they are done with the tour, etc.

 

Another plus for having an endorsement is if you are out of town for a recording project or performance, companies like DW and YAMAHA will make arrangements to have a kit there for you. Sometimes it's new out of the box, other times it's off the show room floor of a local music store.

 

There are many positives to having a relationship with drum manufactures. I can tell you that my relationship with Aquarian has been nothing but WONDERFUL. Not only do they have a great product, but they work with me, ship drumheads quickly to any city I need them (session, performance), plus support my clinic endeavors with Give-A-Way Door Prizes and product literature. Roy Burns or Chris Brady will personally call to chat and see how things are going. Artist Relations is AWESOME!!!

 

Now I wish I could say the same for a certain stick company who's sticks I've been singing the praises of for many years. Not only do the Artist Relation guys NOT give me the time of day, but they make excuses when it comes to sending Door Prizes for my clinics. They don't even send literature to hand out! They act like I'm intruding on them and I have to hound them to get anything from them.

 

I've just given two examples from two different companies. One treats me with respect and care, while they other doesn't even remember who I am when I call. Sure, I'm a nobody ... I'm not playing with any major acts right now and I'm sure not famous, but Artist "Relations" is supposed to be just that ... a relationship. What this latter company doesn't realize is that their poor treatment of them WILL come back to haunt them. When I love a product, you'd think I owned stock in it. Every student I've had ends up using the products I use because they believe in my reasoning and my expertise. Whether it's through clinics, private instruction or live performances ... people notice what I use and it influences them in their purchase decisions.

 

FYI ... I'm looking for another stick company that makes a product that I really like and that works for me. JD, if you are reading this, take note!

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[rlhubley]

Bart,

If i remember right you are a Vater guy. I love the sticks they make, but that's horrible that they treat you like that. Sad, really. If you are looking for another company, Zildjian are VERY close to Vater. And, in fact used to make sticks for Zildjian. The wood from Vic is fine, but i hate all of the finish they put on theirs. I have heard good things from Ayotte(maybe you could get a deal on their ultra-sweet drums as well!). Regal Tip are pretty similiar to Vic Firth. I'm also hearing that JohnnyRaab sticks are great, good hickory and they don't overdo the finish. Pro-mark sticks play like twigs, in my opinion. The wood seems quite weak. It's been a long time since i've played them, but that is my memory of them.

Bart, I know you are probably aware of all of these things, but I hope my comments may have been helpful in some way, maybe even to someone else who lurks about our lovely forum. I am really sorry to hear that you are having such problems with your stick company. Good luck with the search.

[BruBoz]

Originally posted by djarrett:

 

Most endorsers *do not* get *free* gear. Most get an endorser price on gear. This equates to about a 60% off deal. (sometimes only 50% off) Some companies are different ... some may require that the drums be purchased ... and the hardware (as much as is needed) is provided at no charge.

 

 

Is that 50-60% off the list price?

 

There are some music stores that sell their stuff at almost 50% off list price anyways. If you can find it for those prices on your own, why bother with the endorsement?

[DrummerCafe]

Originally posted by BruBoz:

Is that 50-60% off the list price?

There are some music stores that sell their stuff at almost 50% off list price anyways. If you can find it for those prices on your own, why bother with the endorsement?

 

Well, I'm not at liberty to say what my discounts are, but I can tell you that it's better than what the music stores get it for ... especially on the sticks and drumheads ... which is a BLESSING!!!

 

There's a lot more to the relationship between the manufacture and the artist that getting free gear or big discounts, which is just one of the perks.

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

 

This message has been edited by Bartman on 08-22-2001 at 08:29 PM

[djarrett]

Hey, BruBoz: Yes, this is correct ... most of the time endorsers only get 50%-60% off the list price. And, ... again you are correct. Most retailers do sell kits at about 40% off.

Although, some endoresers get below Dealer Cost on drums. Some times ... it is manufacturers costs. This simply means that they only want the cost for raw materials plus labor.

 

In exchange ... most manufacturers will do a custom finish, or configuration to accomodate the fact that the artist pays.

 

In the case of freebies ... as I said ... most times it is a loaner for a specific tour. At the end of the endorsement period, The artist must turn the kit in.

 

Although, most major artist that I know have a significant stash of drums anyway. ... not like they need an endorsement !?!?!

 

 

DJ

[DrummerCafe]

I'm not trying to counter DJ's post, because I think in general the discount for artists/endorsees may be 50-60% Off List (retail) ... BUT ... of the several endorsements that I have, they are ALL better than that.

 

Try 66.667% to 70% off retail for an endorsee; that's not bad at all. Perhaps this is not the norm, but it IS the norm for me. Endorsement deals usually get the product at the same cost as what a music store would get ... or better!

 

Keep in mind, manufactures have to make a living too; they can't just give everything away. Going with DJ's figures is probably best, but I can tell you that my endorsement deals are better than that.

 

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[djarrett]

Yes, Bart ... you are actually in more the norm.

 

I was being a little cautious and posting what I may have offered a "C" endorser. What you refer to in endorsement price is more of a "B" endorser program. An "A" endorser is a major "big" player that we would pursue for an endorsement ... that may include anything from "no charge" gear (but always included a tax hit for the artist) ... to actually paying an artist to be an endorser.

 

Now, ... before you get up in arms about someone being paid to endorse product (as someone mentioned my friend Gregg Bissonette who was a *my* third Mapex endorser ... and then moved with me to Slingerland ... and is now back at Mapex) ... this pay did not come without hard work. The pay is actually based on a contractual clinic obligation. So many clinics a year for so much pay.

 

As far as the "B" program ... that Bart refers to ... this is usually a "dealer price" ... or even better, "manufacturer cost" arrangement.

 

66 2/3rds is usually a good even discount.

 

Hope this clarifies.

 

'

 

Thanks,

 

DJ

[ModernDrummer]

Bart - As a fellow drummer, I'd also say it's pretty sad the way that 'certain' stick manufacturer that you tout so highly treats you. IMHO, it borders on complete disrespect.

 

On the other hand Bartman, if you'll allow me the freedom to play 'devil's advocate' for a moment: Why SHOULD they treat you any different? YOU, my drumming brother, have set the parameters! You said yourself, they treat you in pretty much a demeaning manner, they act like they don't know you, you can't get pamphlets or brochures from them as you should, and you basically have to 'pull their teeth with pliers' to get ANYTHING out of them.

 

By the same token, there ya are, SHOUTING their praises! LOL, well D-U-H! If you tolerate that sort of 'relationship', why SHOULD they change it! It almost sounds like they could get in a magazine, call ya a dirty, no good so & so, shout profanities and hang up on you when you call, and you'd STILL tell your students that the students should buy THEIR sticks.

 

IMMHO, and endorsement relationships should be based not only on benefit, but great mutual respect between BOTH Parties. If that's not happening, NO company is that good. Find another one who WILL work with you in a positive manner, and treat you respectfully. I'll betcha there's a stick company out there that WOULD, and who's sticks are the equal of what you're using now.

 

You may be a 'nobody' (your term, O.K.? Not mine), as am I. But no matter what, you don't deserve that sort of treatment. Besides, I personally enjoy and learn something from what you post and reply here. Even if I might disagree, it at the least, gets me thinking. So to ME, you're most certainly NOT a nobody, O.K.? Sure, you may not have Peart's name recognition, but that doesn't make ya a 'nobody'. And I'll bet, not to your students, either.

 

Possibly you should find a company who appreciates that you sell (hard, as you say, LOL) their product for them. And would be willing to give you the tools, like pamphlets, to help them sell product. That's certainly not too much to ask. And, you deserve it.

 

For me personally, I don't believe in endorsements unless the stuff is provided for free, AND I already use it or have high opinion of it. The company's SOLE goal in sponsoring is advertise, hence sell more product. LOL, I won't even let the new car dealerships put one of those stupid stickers on my car unless I'm getting something major out of it. Hey, they spend a gazillion dollars a year buying TV and radio time, magazine ads, etc., etc., etc. Even their sales personnel get some sort of compensation / commission, without having to come in the office and 'pay for the electricity and phone time while they're there'. Why should it be any different for drummers?

 

LOL, obviously, I'll probably NEVER get an endorsement deal. Fair enough. I'm already happy with the 'discount off list' prices I pay anyway. AND, I don't have to beg some moron at the company to please give me some brochures to help THEM sell THEIR product.

 

If WE wanna change the system, then WE as a community of drummers should stop endorsing their products unless it's provided gratis. And insist we're treated respectfully as musicians. THEN, it would change. And quickly. Until we decided to do it, to me it's as much of a joke as it is a benefit. And I for one don't need to be treated rudely or be insulted to save a few dollars.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

J.B.

[sidereal]

Getting jerked around by endorsers is not uncommon. My drum teacher recently got an endorsement deal with (bigtime drumkit comapny X) and they've been treating him like crap. They didn't send the kit he ordered and when he called his contact at (company X) they wouldn't return phone calls. When he finally got him live on the phone he was a dick and said he couldn't talk right now. Finally they got a chance to speak and the guy made my teacher feel like shit, saying it was his fault that the kit wasn't right.

 

He was feeling pretty down about it and I was the one who pushed him to fight for the treatment he deserved, since the endorsement is as beneficial to them as it is to him. He finally had to get nasty with them and it all worked out in the end, and the dude apologized and my teacher got what he wanted. But that's no way to be doing AR.

 

Just thought you'd all like to know in case you thought endorsements were all smiles and happiness.

[djarrett]

Hey, I'll tell you my view of Artist Relations, ... and I mean this with all the love I can express ... so do not take it the wrong way ... if you are an artist being endorsed, ... but, Artist Relations is a glorified baby sitting position.

Again, I do not mean this derogatorily, it is just the fact that there is alot of back-bending effort that goes into pleasing many of these artist..

You have to have the *right personality* and a lot of patience.

 

DJ

[sidereal]

DJ...

 

With the choppy style you wrote that, I'm not sure I understand your post. But if you're referring to what I mentioned above, I think you'd have to agree that the story I just told is far from someone being pissy about having to be babysat. He was treated like dog meat.

 

I've worked in artist relations, and my ex-girlfriend currently works in artist relations for a *major* manufacturer. I know the field very, very well. You treat people with respect. You don't refuse to return phone calls, you don't constantly make them feel bad for calling them to get clarification on the kit you agreed to endorse, and you don't turn it around on them and make them feel like it's their fault when clearly the manufacturer got it wrong. That hardly constitutes babysitting.

 

Artist relations isn't about babsitting, it's about a "relationship." Only when there's respect on both sides does it work.

[spookmuzik]

Thanks guys for such a great response! Esp djarrett, great info, just what I needed to know. I think this happens a lot, when a band gets a little positive feedback, a little interest from a label, its like woooohooo gonna get me some free stuff. Obviously this is not the case. BUT...

 

If the possiblity of a discount is there, and the buzz is growing, as a (reluctant) manager type, do I make the call and say "Hi I'm smarmy and you should help me, because I can get your product on TV" or do I recommend to the drummer that he call and say hello, in order to start a relationship which may later help to keep a tour just a little cheaper?

 

Once again - thanks for the info, maybe I should lurk a little less!

Julian M

 

Originally posted by djarrett:

spookmuzik:

 

I have run two drum company artist relations programs (Mapex and Slingerland) and can tell you that endorsement deals are much more than an "I'm cool" situation.

 

Most endorsers *do not* get *free* gear. Most get an endorser price on gear. This equates to about a 60% off deal. (sometimes only 50% off) Some companies are different ... some may require that the drums be purchased ... and the hardware (as much as is needed) is provided at no charge.

 

In the case of a major drummer ... or a drummer with a major act, then those guys will usually get a kit gratis. In some cases, the kit is considered a "loaner" for the tour. In other cases, the company will give the drums to the major drummer, but will require that they report the gift as income on their taxes!

 

The largest determining factor is exposure numbers. How many people will see the product (TV appearances, Major Venue Concerts, etc.)

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks,

 

DJ

[djarrett]

Originally posted by sidereal:

DJ...

 

With the choppy style you wrote that, I'm not sure I understand your post. But if you're referring to what I mentioned above, I think you'd have to agree that the story I just told is far from someone being pissy about having to be babysat. He was treated like dog meat.

 

I've worked in artist relations, and my ex-girlfriend currently works in artist relations for a *major* manufacturer. I know the field very, very well. You treat people with respect. You don't refuse to return phone calls, you don't constantly make them feel bad for calling them to get clarification on the kit you agreed to endorse, and you don't turn it around on them and make them feel like it's their fault when clearly the manufacturer got it wrong. That hardly constitutes babysitting.

 

Artist relations isn't about babsitting, it's about a "relationship." Only when there's respect on both sides does it work.

 

 

Hey, Sidereal:

I think you may have mis-understood my point. The point was that it *IS* totally about relationships. Also, (much like with babysitting) ... you must be able to accomodate many personalities!

 

Your are correct ... there is *NO* excuse with the way Bart is being treated ... unfortunately ... this is not too uncommon.

 

I often prided myself on the fact that I worked on the premise that "there is NO traffic jam on the extra mile!" I treated artist like *I* would like to be treated. For some manufacturers, this is not the case. Artist are looked at as simply a necessary evil and a high maintainance diversion.

 

As far as the choppy way I wrote the above ... I was not sure how to make my point ... and obviously still made a poor show of it! Sorry.

 

Thanks,

DJ

[sidereal]

Hey DJ, sorry. Caught me in a bad mood. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I think I did misunderstand your point.

 

Bart's difficulties are not cool, but I was more talking about the issue my drum teacher was having. The manufacturer made him really feel bad about it and it totally bummed him out. I just wanted to point out that respect is in order on both sides, which you so aptly stated. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[DrummerCafe]

Well guys, I've tried to make a point to not mention the name of the drumstick manufacture or too much regarding the specifics. I saw this Artist Relations individual at PASIC in Dallas last year, and the guy didn't want to give me the time of day. There were no other artists at the booth, nor any attendees ... just me and the AR guy. If I had to make a stereotype about this individual, I would say that he has the big city, East coast personality. Very rough on the edges and not cordial by any means. I know I'm a "nobody" but they did take me on as endorsee. What's really funny about all of this is that Modern Drummer did an article awhile back regarding endorsements. They had this particular AR guy as one of the panel members. Interesting to say the least.

 

I am remaining with this stick company because I really love the product. I'm not going to judge the company because of how the AR guy is treating me. I'm sure that I am not the only one who has experienced this with this particular individual ... nor will I be the last. I can tell you that I am currently looking for another company because it is important for me to a good working relationship. I understand the thoughts that possibly I am allowing them to treat me this way by remaining with them. I also know that if I complain about it, I highly doubt anything will be done about it. I'm not into the idea of splitting and then complain to the "former" company because there is no reason for them to change ... I would no longer be with them. Perhaps if they are concerned that others feel the same way, they may look into the matter further. Again, I'm not famous ... so why should they change anything. I appreciate ModernDrummer's earlier post however, as well as Sidereal's concerns.

 

DJ is right about different levels of endorsees. I think most people know that the A, B, and C level endorsees all get different treatment as well as discounts; it's not really a secret. Perhaps I was too honest ... but I also wasn't specific with who was doing what, etc.

 

I agree with Sidereal regarding the whole Artist Relations thing. I've owned my own drum shop and work with over 60 professional drummers who are members of the Drum Ring International. All that aside, I think it comes down to treating EVERYONE with a certain amount of respect. We all are in fact human beings; it doesn't necessarily matter what your stature is. That's why I wanted to make a point of really praising the efforts of Aquarian. They don't pay me a dime, so don't think that. They treat me just like everyone else ... GREAT!!! They know that I have something to offer the drumming community, regardless of how "infamous" or "unknown" I may be.

 

I do have some choices to make ...and I need to set my BOUNDARIES for sure. It's time for me to take my own words to heart ... and believe me, I am doing just that. I'm just moving cautiously and slowly.

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com