Ok Enough ,Don't you think they've gone to far!

[serpico3]

This has been on my mind for sometime, I know this is probably going to upset someones apple cart.But going back over the years their was only a few Drum Companies around not like today were everyones brother and sister own a Drum Company, were they simply buy Keller shells Strap on there own hardware , do some fancy finishing stain Lacquer on it and proclaim there sets are this and that. Man in the day there was the Big Four Companies , Slingerland, Gretsch, Ludwig, Rogers, later followed by Leedy, Camco,WFL, foreign market Premier, Sonor. The discussion goes lately as this which have better shells Maple, Birch, Beechwood, Mahogany,Popar, Falkwood , Basswood, Lets face it The Drum has evolved from every known material known to mankind , now its Carbon Fiber , Spun Carbon Fiber mixed with Maple, Fiberglass , Spun Fibergalss, Acyrlic, Aluminum, even now Titanium , Brass , Bronze, Stainless Steel, impregnated Paper shot with Resin to form a Hard Shell , The Companies who proclaim their shell to be superior over this one or that one , that this type with stands the weather elements better than that one, this ones bearing edge is better than that one , they even make drums out or Chipboard, Heres my point unless you have superior hearing and place one or another in a room blind folded I swear know one could tell me which shell was which and what company made which one , I'm saying the HYPE is now gone to far , I said before I'm all for doing whatever is necessay to keep drumming alive,interesting and challenging

, and I'm all for new innovators or progression in percussion instruments, and I admire the skill of all drum craftsmen every were wether there Starve shell constuction as Foreign makers are Le Soprano, and Tamburro Drums, And heres another thing Import, Foreign Drum manufactures, Even now drill out whole Logs to make a one piece solid shell Ironwood from Australia, man can you imagine the weight of those shells, I've read extensively on all these Drum Manufactures claims on their shells construction and Material, the work envoled the tooling of Hardware, the tolerences used to complete their shells at times they sound like their constructing a spaceship to Mars . Man these are Drums, So why all this so called science , technology has surpassed itself manys times over and we now can construct a Drum shell nearly out of any material. whether Radial Bridge or Arbitors one step tunning or whatever. Each company is unique on to it self for sure and it's just good PR and Marketing to promote there Products , I've been to several NAMM Shows an I'm delighted to see all these companies , in Fact I'm like a kid in a Large Candy shop having my pick to chose, and I know it sounds like I'm Bitching in fact I'm not , I'm just alittle concerned over the HYPE being driven out to young Drummers , The fact is Times now are never better to buy drums , Man if I had the choices of Drums and the Entry level kits to start out with today , MADone! I'd be in heaven my first set had a Bass Drum 26 Inches a snare , cymbal, I had to put blocks on my pedal so I could reach I swear this is true , but today Moma Mia It's a great time to be a drummer ,just the hype everyones jumping in on the Band wagon making drums , Wow I never knew it was such a profitable business but I guess it really is, I just hope noone comes up with a set made out of McDonalds wrappers.....Peace serpico3

[Gaddabout]

Everyone used to have mix-and-match drum sets, including the pros. I remember when companies stuck to a single marketing plan. There were makers of low-end kits (CB700), mid-range kits (Tama, Pearl) and high-end kits (Yamaha, eventually DW). There were companies that only did one or two things well, like Camco (which became DW) and Noble and Cooley. It made sense to put DW hardware on a Pearl kit, use a DW chain-drive pedal, and have a Yamaha piccolo snare for special occasions. Might even had some smaller Tama toms on the rack, or an old Gretsch bass drum.

 

Now everyone's getting into all kinds of markets, stealing ideas from competitors and calling them their own. Also, endorsements have pretty much done away with mix-and-match sets on the pro level.

 

Personally, I feel I can make *almost* any drum set sound good with hardware, heads and tuning, but I'm still saving up for that maple Yamaha. =)

[Steve LeBlanc]

I agree with you both...I think some of the developments are cool (like rim mounted toms) but it has gone way overboard...and the prices (while creating good income for some drum manufacturers which can be a really good thing) are too high for some of these sets...

 

At least you can still get a decent quality drumset for a very affordable price.

[DrummerCafe]

I'm not really sure what your final point was, but here's my take on it.

 

I understand about the Keller shell thing ... but there is more to it than that. Not every company uses Keller shells. If they do, they still have to cut them, bevel the edges, etc. I do see your point.

 

I think there IS a difference in the sound when it comes to comparing drums. The material it's made of and they quality of material. If it's wood, then GOD MADE IT. Man can only shave it down and cut it ... but the density and quality of the wood is there or it's not. Even Keller shells vary in quality. The type of beveled edge and the degree at which it is cut, the type of drum heads, the type of rims, the depth of the shell, the number of plys of the shell, the diameter of the shell, the room in which the drum is played, the type of sticks or other apparatus used to strike the drum, the way the drum is struck and how are the drum is struck ... there are so many variables that make up how a drum sounds ... so there IS a difference.

 

Now to say that one is better than the other, whether claimed by the manufacture or the performer, is purely subjective. We all have different tastes and we all hear things differently. There's not a company out there, no matter what industry you think of, that doesn't say or think that their product is the "best". It really boils down to the consumer make the decision of what's "best for them" and what they like. Every company just hopes that the majority of the masses will choose their product over their competition.

 

On a personal note, and I mean this with all due respect ... if you could take a breath once in awhile ... like hit the Return Key between your thoughts, it will make it easier for many of us to read your posts. Trying to catch what it is you are wanting to express is kind of tough when your entire post is one enormous paragraph. It makes me feel like I'm reading Zappa's BLACK PAGE. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Please don't take offense to my comments. I want to read what you have to say, but I must admit that I tend to get lost in your posts and just give up and quit reading. Perhaps I'm A.D.D. ... who knows.

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[serpico3]

Bartman, OH my God , your absolutely right, I'm very sorry that I ramble on, I see what you mean and reading back my text , made me laugh looking at it in your perspective , My Grandsons who are 8 and 7 even tell me Grandpa you have to do this or that because they can't follow my text either, I'm new to this computer thing I guess it shows , and I really am sorry . I'll try better to learn this thing here .As for your insight , I always enjoy reading your responses , I can see by your Web site you are a dedicated, intellent, and a Great Drummer , Thank God your on our industry and we didn't lose you as a Guitar player, Not that I have anything against Guitar players I'm just glad we have you to inspire us and give us advice. And yes in that your reponse to the heart of the matter also is correct I guess I get narrow minded at times . I really can't put my finger on it or express what I feel better , It's just so much so soon , every year when you read in MD or Drum mag , the industry makes such drastic changes in their products , some for the better others just cosmetic and proclaim this and that , what happen to last years model I just bought and getting use to? Is that no longer any good? I get these questions alot from my students! So tell me whatta ya think? Your probably thinking( THEY ALWAYS LET THEM OUT ON THE WEEKENDS WITH A PASS IF THE WEATHERS GOOD!) HEHE........TAKE CARE PEACE BROTHERS serpico3

[felix stein]

Bartman,

 

Did you find a copy of the black page transcription yet?

 

 

Oh, if I am familiar with the kit...like say I'm working in a drumshop...if I close my eyes I can hear the diff.

 

And when I'm looking for a new kit...I know what I like when I hear it and see it. There is a diff.

[DrummerCafe]

No ... no copy of The Black Page. I was wondering if someone was going to mention about wanting a copy of the chart. I've only seen several pages of the chart in a periodical.

 

I want a copy if anyone finds it! LOL

[DrummerCafe]

No ... no copy of The Black Page. I was wondering if someone was going to mention about wanting a copy of the chart. I've only seen several pages of the chart in a periodical.

 

I want a copy if anyone finds it! LOL

[ModernDrummer]

Well, I know I've thrown in my 2 cents on the debate before, though I don't think on this forum, so here goes. I agree with Bart that if a drum (say a 13" tom) is made from different materials (woods, composites, synthetics, whatever) with different lugs, blah, blah, blah, there HAS to be some, physics-wise, difference in sounds. BUT, and please read that as a HUGE 'But'...

 

In the REAL WORLD context of drumming, say on stage, with other instruments playing, audience noise, ambient noise, etc., IMHO the shell differences just do not matter to the extent that we as a drumming community proclaim. And there are those who proclaim they can tell with almost superhuman accuracy and hearing. But most 'Regular' folks I just don't think will really notice a difference.

 

It is honestly possible that someone is picking up subtleties in tonal variations that I or perhaps others cannot. Though to my thinking, if the woods are that close, chances are what they're hearing, if anything, is possibly something other than the slight differences in wood. Think for a moment of all the factors that work toward making a given drum, let's say a 12" (diameter) tom, since that's pretty common, sound the way it does:

 

First off: Are you listening to BOTH toms, in the exact same room, back to back (or back and forth) on the same day without ANY changes in room conditions (temperature, humidity and ambient noise, people in the room, etc.) OR your physical condition (you're coming down with a cold, you're head is getting stuffy, etc.)? AND is the SAME person playing BOTH toms with EXACTLY the same techniques and attack in each case? In other words, are the listening conditions EXACTLY the same in ALL instances? If it's 'Yes' to ALL of these factors, THEN:

 

*Manufacturer? Is it the same manufacturer, using the same machinery to produce the drum with EXACTLY the same process(es)?

*Finish - Wrap, paint or stain. Thickness of the finish?

*Glue - Type, brand, and consistency?

*Gluing process - Applied hot or cold? How thick? Notched or smooth application?

*Shell Laminations - Direction of the laminations (horizontal, vertical, both? Diagonally? Diagonally AND cross grain?) Thickness of each layer?

*Age of the respective kits?

*Type of wood? Cut from heart wood or edge?

*Age of the wood?

*Type of heads?

*Condition of heads?

*Age of the heads?

*Type of hardware?

*Age of the hardware?

*Angle of bearing edges?

*What sticks are being use?

*Type of mounting system?

 

ALL of these factors, and probably some others, work together to comprise what sound you're hearing from a given drum on a given day. It's WAY beyond just "It's the wood", or "It's the heads".

 

So I think it's at least understandable why I'm always a bit cynical when anyone says "This wood is better, 'cause it HAS to be better"? Or "It's more expensive so it has to be better"? Keep in mind, that in my very humble (but strong) opinion, just MY opinion mind you, that if ALL those factors listed above were EXACTLY the same, EXACTLY, I find it highly doubtful that anyone, trained ear or not I'm extremely cynical that all factors being the same except the wood, that anyone, trained ear or not could hear much, if any difference between ANY woods. And certainly not in the real world where extraneous noise makes a HUGE difference.

 

Yeah, I'm gonna start gettin' bashed now. LOL! And I know there's plenty of "Don't confuse me with the FACTS, my mind's made up"-type folks out there. BUT, c'mon, answer this for me honestly, please. If I blindfolded you, took you out in the woods, I took a good sized stick and guided you around whacking different trees with that stick, can you honestly tell me that you could tell when I was whacking a Maple and when I was striking an Oak, Beech, Birch, Alder, Elm, Fir, Willow or 'cheap Phillipine Mahogany'?

 

Sound goofy and extreme? Sure, you bet it does. But it sounds just as goofy and extreme to me when someone says South American Mahagony is great, Phillipine Lauan sucks. Man, unless you're pretty studied and well versed in exotic woods, I could most likely HAND them a piece of each and they couldn't tell me the difference. For that matter, probably not between Beech, Birch, Fir and Basswood either. Ever look at just raw lumber? Cut them into 4' long 2"x4"s and man many of your hardwoods look awfully similar. Sure, graining (sometimes subtle) is different. But often when people think of oak or walnut, they're thinking of a finished piece of that wood, not raw lumber.

 

Is it possible? Sure, but as a general rule, we're drummers, not Master woodcraftsman. And it takes those guys a lifetime to learn the nuances of woods that we claim we can hear with some cat pounding away during a drum solo. In my opinion, and again it's just MY opinion, it's unlikely.

 

I'm not saying that someone isn't hearing SOMETHING that may be different on one set than another. I just challenge anyone who's making that claim to me to PROVE that it's SOLELY the shell material, and nothing else. Like anyone making extraordinary claims, it's up to the person making the claim to substantiate and prove it. I'm just throwing out that I challenge the claim, to anyone.