Can drummers be songwriters?

[sidereal]

I've been approached by a singer-songwriter to help her write some new songs. I do a bit of rhythm programming and she wants stuff I come up with to inspire her to write some new songs.

 

So it got me thinking.... When does a drummer get credit for songwriting? Since we don't work in melody, we don't write progressions, the area is much more grey when it comes to writing songs. Of course rhythm is an essential part of music, but is creating a certain rhythmic pattern writing a song?

 

More generally, in the scenario above, should I ask for co-writing credit? What if she takes what I have used to 'inspire' her and completely re-does it a different way?

 

So many questions.... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Lee Flier]

Well, here goes Lee again in defense of drummers. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

There are a lot of songwriters, who are mostly just greedy, egomaniacal or just plain screwed up in the head, who never want to give writing credit to a drummer. It doesn't matter whether the drummer was there through most of the process of writing the song. It doesn't matter whether the song wouldn't have been the same if the drummer wasn't there. The argument goes, as you said, that it's "only" the rhythm part and is not the lyrics or melody. That's lame. Certainly if someone writes a song for percussion only, such as KODO or STOMP do, it's a song, even though it's "just" rhythms. Yet if you stuck lyrics and melody on top of that, the person who wrote the lyrics and melody should get credit but not the drummer(s)? Give me a break.

 

Our drummer has never "written" songs, and doesn't play any other instrument besides drums (although he sings great), but he's such a musical guy and has such a good ear for a part that I don't doubt he could participate in the songwriting process and we plan on encouraging that. If he has ideas for a great drum groove that becomes the basis for a song we write, his name is going on the credit. Period. What's the big deal?

 

So I'd say the answer is, use your judgement. If you hear the song and can definitely say that your ideas had an impact on how it turned out, yes, I would ask for a credit. Really, she should just offer it to you, but that's probably asking too much at this point. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

The other consideration is whether this is someone you work with on a regular basis or is it just a paid session? If she considers it a paid session it is likely that she just considers you a session drummer and that her obligation to you ends there no matter what you do. So if I were you I'd work it out with her beforehand. Ask her if there's a possibility that you could get songwriting credit if your ideas contribute substantially to the end result. Then you can decide how you want to proceed based on the answer. I don't think it's something that I would make a big stink over unless it's really blatant, but it would be good to plant the seed in her head that you would appreciate the credit.

 

--Lee

[sign]

Can drummers be songwriters? Why not? It reminds me about something, maybe a bit off topic.

 

I was recording a really good symphonic metal band a couple of years ago.

 

The drummer was quite brilliant. The band had two guitarists and there had to be done some difficult acoustic guitar parts. Guess who did them? Yes, the drummer did.

 

A complicated bass intro was done by the drummer.

 

Very nice keyboards were done by the drummer, he played much better than the keyboard player.

 

A very, VERY nice flute solo was played by..... right!!!

 

Guess who has wrote all the beautifull songs? Indeed the drummer was the songwriter too.

 

Peace.

[DrummerCafe]

Absolutely; look at Neil Peart.

 

I happen to think that many drummers happen to be the most creative musicians.

 

If you do engage in songwriting with other members of the band or a third party, it would be a VERY good idea to talk about the fact that we are ALL writing this song and contributing to it. Even if you don't speak the "music language" and just play, the groove and rhythmic composition can often times be the hook in the song. Without it, the song wouldn't exist. Whomever started thinking that only melody and harmony received writers credit should be taken about back and _________________ (you fill in the blank).

 

A singer/songwriter approached me years ago to help develop a song for a LIVE CD/Video project that we would both be performing on. He had the melody, words and chord changes ... but wanted it to sound "African" ... not "white bread". I worked on the song, creating all the parts for the rest of the band. Drum groove, bass lines, keyboard and guitar parts as well as some horn arrangements. I taught the parts to eveyone (some read music, others didn't). I played percussion on the project.

 

When it was all said and done, I NEVER got credit for the arrangements and the singer/songwriter came up to me and said "you know, as much as you developed my song, I should have given you WRITERS credit." HELLO!!!!!!

 

So all of this to say, you need to talk things through BEFORE you put hands (and brain) to collaborating. Make sure that they understand you a playing a part in making the song complete and playable. Doing this will help keep bitterness out of your life ... and you'll probably live longer. It will also keep you out of jail since there won't be any dead bodies hiding under your house. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

I'm going to post another thread about "Album Credits". This discussion has brought up yet another "bad memory" for me. LOL

 

 

 

------------------

Bart Elliott

http://bartelliott.com

[Lee Flier]

Man, you guys are not doing a very good job of making a case for drummers. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

All the examples used so far (like Neil Peart, who writes all his band's lyrics, or the cases of contributing horn arrangements and stuff, or playing other instruments) have to do with getting credit for songwriting based on contributions OTHER THAN DRUMS.

 

Even if "all" you did was play drums, and the drum part is an integral part of the song, and you were there BEHIND THE KIT throughout the process of developing the song into the final arrangement, it is my contention that you should still get credit!

 

So there!

 

--Lee

 

This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 07-25-2001 at 10:51 AM

[DrummerCafe]

I thought I did mention in my previous post that a drummer does contribute, even if it's only applying the drum part.

 

Even if you don't speak the "music language" and just play, the groove and rhythmic composition can often times be the hook in the song. Without it, the song wouldn't exist.

 

But I don't think a drummer should be given credit for writing a song if all he/she does is lay down a standard four beat groove. There has to be some substance that makes the contribution to merit writing credit. Otherwise a drum machine should get writing credit just for keeping a basic beat while the songwriter works out the chords, melody and lyrics.

[Lee Flier]

True enuff Bart. Although personally, I might still give the drummer credit if he's actually kind and motivated enough to show up and play a beat for me while I work out a song. Just having another human there, especially a drummer, is very inspiring for me and helps me to work better. And it's a lot easier in the heat of the creative moment to say "Switch to double time here" than to program that into a drum machine. I hate playing or even writing to drum machines anyway.

 

I've had a lot of situations where I'll be at a band rehearsal, and either I'll start off with a guitar riff or chord progression or the drummer comes up with a cool groove, and everybody joins in and we start jamming. Maybe it'll get recorded on a boom box or whatever. Then I'll go home and write lyrics and we'll end up with a song. In that case everybody in the band gets credit. If we're talking splitting up royalties, I might take a larger percentage cuz I wrote all the lyrics, but why not give everybody something? If they hadn't been there it wouldn't have happened. I don't understand this "I Me Mine" mentality.

 

--Lee

[sidereal]

Originally posted by Bartman:

But I don't think a drummer should be given credit for writing a song if all he/she does is lay down a standard four beat groove. There has to be some substance that makes the contribution to merit writing credit.

 

[/b]

 

That sort of goes along with what I was thinking. So there's a tremendous gray area here. If the part has to be compelling enough to warrant credit, than I might be tempted to push myself beyond what is really needed for the song. (Because let's face it, songwriting is where the $$$ is in this business, as far a musicians go.) A simple rock beat ain't gonna cut it.

 

I suppose it's also different if you're in a band. REM's Bill Berry would get songwriting credit on all REM's songs even thought that's pretty standard stuff.

 

If you're working for hire and composing beats that are integral to the creation of the song (as someone else mentioned), then that's when you're a songwriter. I'm thinking of someone like Bjork here, who gives co-credit to her rhythm programmers.

 

And then there's stuff like Steve Gadd's 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover. That beat made the song. Who knows, maybe Paul Simon came up with the groove, but I don't think Gadd got credit for that.

[djarrett]

Hey, Lee what about Stan? You can't forget about him!

 

To read Lee's excellent article on Stan Lynch ... go to the drum channel on MusicPlayer.com/

 

Thanks,

DJ

[Lee Flier]

Yeah exactly, sidereal - the fact that Steve Gadd is not credited for "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" (and he isn't) is criminal. Unless Simon did come up with the whole groove.

 

And DJ, thanks for the plug for my Stan interview - but Stan is yet another case in point. As long as he was in Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, he was never given a songwriting credit for any song, regardless of how much he participated in working up the arrangement that MADE the song happen. And that was a good deal of the time. Imagine "The Waiting" or "Even the Losers" or even "Here Comes My Girl", simple as it is, without the drum hooks and you would not have the same song. Stan was in the studio throughout the entire LONG process of working out these songs and should have been credited for it.

 

In fact, he is pretty well indoctrinated at this point with the idea that one can't be a drummer and a songwriter at the same time. He co-writes now with lots of people, but NOT from behind the kit. Generally it's with a guitar, and the drum parts for the songs he actually writes are rarely anything special. IMO, that's a crying shame.

 

But I'm probably preaching to the choir here... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

--Lee

[sidereal]

That's interesting about Stan Lynch, and a bit depressing too!

 

Another criminal act: Steve Smith not getting credit for Don't Stop Believin' by Journey. Again, that pattern *is* the song. I notice Journey songs are always some variation of Schon/Cain/Perry.... you can't tell me Steve Smith didn't help write half that shit.

 

It makes me wonder now if it's not so much the contribution as it is the process. Seems if the drummer is there creating from the beginning, he/she is more apt to get credit. I'd imagine in the above example, the three of them presented the complete structure to Steve, who then did his job making a killer part. The part makes the song, but he probably wasn't around for the genesis of the initial idea. Still, that doesn't seem right.

[Lee Flier]

I dunno, like I said, Stan Lynch was there through the whole process on an awful lotta songs and still didn't get credit. And I agree, it's very depressing. I think it's just a function of how aware (and egoless) the songwriter is about how much the drummer contributes. John Bonham got credit on a fair bit of Zep tunes. As much as he should have? I dunno. But I think he was probably more appreciated as being a creative force in the band than a lot of drummers. It's obvious that Page and the other guys really appreciated him which is cool.

 

--Lee

[ModernDrummer]

Well, from reading this post so far, it sounds like all or most of you have a great deal more experience in this area than I. That said, I'll throw in my 2 cents worth, for what it's worth. LOL.

 

In our band, with our originals, I write the drum parts. That's MY job as the drummer. It may be simple, or complex ("Serve The Song", eh?), but whatever it is on the final cut, is what I came up with for the song. And sure, I also contribute some basic ideas on chord progressions, timing, fills, syncopations, etc. So that my job of writing the drum part includes various aspects to help give the song it's FEEL. It's sound. Double time, straight time or something else is wherein my drumming abilities lie.

 

For that reason, our band feels the entire process, from the first germination to the final cut, involves everyone in the band. Just as in a live performance, each member contributes THEIR thoughts, ideas, and abilities to each original. Therefore, we thought it appropriate that ALL int the band receive credit for those contributions. The 'percentage' split equally among the members. So that even if at some future time, one member would leave, he would still receive an equal share of royalties (if any) for that song or songs.

 

To be honest, I've even had songs (on tape) given to me that were fairly complete, with all other parts included and a basic drum part laid out on a drum machine, and told "write a drum part for this". In this case, it appears to be their belief (and mine, LOL) that I'm 'completing' the song by writing the specific drum part. That the song is not yet complete until I've written a drum part. Even in this case, I still receive equal credit.

 

Not saying it should always be this way in every case. But it works very well for us. Each of the present members is a founding member, and therefore has contributed significantly to the overall success of the band. Whatever that may eventually mean. Therefore, he's an equal partner. He helped found the band, and helped it transform into whatever it becomes. And therefore, in our humble opinions, deserves equality in all areas.

 

Just my (our) thoughts.

 

J.B.

[djarrett]

I must say that I am totallly confused. I thought we were talking about writing complete songs.

I have many, many drum freinds including myself that compose drum parts for songs that have been written, but we get no credit for that. We merely collect our little monies for this project and move on.

 

I am interested in folks like Stan or Mickey that write and compose entire songs ... includeing lyrics. (Stan wrote or co-wrote almost every song on Don Henly's last album)

 

I am off base here?

 

DJ

[Lee Flier]

Well DJ, the original question was whether sidereal should get songwriting credit for having come up with rhythm parts that the songwriter used to write songs. He wasn't writing the complete songs. So that was the context of the discussion.

 

--Lee

[sidereal]

Yeah, that was the original question. Writing complete songs is a given, so here I was mostly concerned about co-writing credit. In this business, songwriting can be incredibly lucrative if someone's song hits it big, even if you co-write. I just don't want to be left out if I help her and that happens.

 

But also, the broader issue is so strange to me, because there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules as to when a drummer helps in the writing of a song. Sadly, it seems to be more about circumstance (i.e. what the band/artist environment is) than it is about creating key rhythmic parts.

[ModernDrummer]

sidereal,

 

I think you're correct in that it seems to be more a matter of band / artist policy than any 'hard & fast' or 'standard' rules on the subject.

 

I was thinking perhaps that wherein the confusion lies (for the industry) is in just exactly WHAT constitutes a "key rhythmic part", to use your well said definition.

 

Along what line would we define a 'key' rhythmic part, as opposed to a 'standard' rhythmic part? Someone mentioned Gadd on "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover". Certainly a very distinct (and well done! LOL) drum part for the song. And personally, I also believe Gadd should've received credit (I'm sure he received some compensation) for it.

 

On the other hand, isn't what Steve did on that song, however well or perfectly we feel it done, just basically some rudiment work? So should the initator(s) / inventor(s) of those particular drum rudiments also get credit and receive compensation? See, it can get very confusing, even to us. I suppose that's why we're debating it here.

 

And as a group of drummers WE can't even succinctly create a definition, how can we expect anyone else in the industry to define it? Or even have any empathy for our situation and service?

 

Of course, this is just us, but with our originals, *I* write the drum parts. Even though I may use riffs, rudiments, etc. that have been used previously by myself or other artists. *I* decide, for the most part, WHERE they're utilized, when or if they're used, what speed, tempo, time signature and feel to place upon them. Those things are MY decisions. Just as in the same way a composer, guitarist, keyboardist or song writer decides on which notes and chords to use, where to place them, how fast or slow, etc. Hey, there's only really 12 notes on a scale (the 13th being just the same note as the first, but an octave higher or lower). Or in the same way a lyricist uses the vocabulary, or dictionary.

 

Should we say, "Hey, you don't get credit or royalties for the song (Whomever), because those chords have been used before"? Or "You're not gettin' nuthin' for this song buddy, 'cause the word 'Love' has already been in a million songs"? Hardly. LOL, we might not have anyone EVER writing songs again! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

So, in my (our) humble opinion, it's the WAY that I as the writer of the drum part decide to put those chops together that (hopefully) makes a good, worthwhile song. It's the WAY a drummer / percussionist plays, their choices, their style, influences and feel that help to make the song what it turns out to be. Just as it is with any other contributing member of the song. That's why we chose to do it the way we do it.

 

I mean, really, isn't that WHY certain drummers are chosen, hired, asked to play on certain songs, or with certain artists? And some a LOT more than others? If not, why're people like Blaine, Gadd et. al. way more popular as session drummers than Joe Lunchbox drummer? BECAUSE it's the style and feel they have. The WAY they play!

 

Not saying that's the way it is, obviously. But IMHO, that's the way it OUGHT to be.