vinnie c. Posted July 11, 2001 Share Posted July 11, 2001 I was reading about this on the Evans board and I don't know whats a joke and what isn't about these two guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 What exactly are you refering to? I am aware and read the initial letter by Ron S. regarding his speed drumming bashing. I am also aware of Andy D.s letter debating Ron's views. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lego Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 What did it say? I have to know! What's up with the editors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 Hey, Ian* Give me till this evening. I will post the two letters for your pleasure! DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve52 Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 How can an editor from a drumming magazine dislike great tec. in competition. He should be glad that the w.f.d. is doing this. It brings out drumming further. Guys like Johnny Rabb and Art Verdi are bringing more news to the drumming world. It should be vey much RESPECTED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb thomas Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Ian, what letters are you posting and when, the ones from magazines or the actual post of the editors? Why would Ron hate competitive drumming that much, he has to be competitive and I know the guy on the cover of the first md was one of the most competetive spirits alive. so what are these two going to do? Are they going to dance or what? I will have to go with Andy of Drum!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Hey, Ian and bb: Here is the letter from Ron: "And The Winner Is ... Can someone tell me just when the art of drumming became an athletic event? Over the past year, I've noticed several major events designed to determine the fastest hands, the fastest feet, the fastest single strokes someone can play in a minute's time. What's next? The fastest paradiddles? The fastest ride cymbal beat? Who can play the last page of the Chapin book the fastest? How about an award for the guy who can set up and break down his gear the fastest? Now that would be different. Is it just me, or is this getting out of control? Seriously, we all know that having the chops to play anything that may come into our heads is important. But is it so important that we need to make a competition out of it? Are events that put the emphasis on how much faster I can play that you distorting the goal of becoming the best musician we can possibly be? The legendary Joe Morello, one of the greatest technicians of all time, has said, "Technique is only a means to an end. It helps you express your ideas. But just to see how fast you can play doesn't make any sense if you can't use it musically. If you're just going to machine-gun everyone to death -- that's not it! It's also impossible in a discussion such as this to overlook the contributions of those players who actually offered little in the way of technical mastery, but whose musical sensitivity, time feel, and groove more than compensated for any technical deficiencies. Placing such extreme importance on the athletic aspect of drumming in the minds of young drummers sends out the wrong message -- and ultimately ignores what we're supposed to be striving for. For years, we drummers have battled the old "second-class musician" status. But we've made incredible headway, thanks to the superb musicianship of the current crop of players who've altered that perception. Let's not get so caught u in this "who's the fastest?" thing that we negate the progress we've made and put the old stereotype back in the minds of your fellow musicians. The point is, drumming is not an Olympic event. Let's leave that to the athletes. We're serious musicians, plying our craft on a serious musical instrument. Let's keep a clear focus on that, rather than on athletic prowess. In the final analysis, it'll mean a lot more. Ron Spagnardi" (Modern Drummer June 2001 Issue) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 And here is Andy Doerschuk's reply in DRUM! (June-July 2001 Issue) Go Ahead! Play as Fast as You Want! We rarely choose to draw attention to any of our competitors, but we were compelled to respond after reading a recent editorial written by Ron Spagnardi, Editor/Publisher of Modern Drummer. In the June 2001 issue of MD, Spagnardi expressed distaste toward the idea of events where drummers compete against one another to determine who can play the fastest. As much as we admire Mr. Spagnardi's contribution to the drumming industry, we respectfully disagree with his opinion. While the concept of extreme sports drumming is relatively young, drumming competitions are as old as the hills. Remember Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich duking it out during Norman Granz's Jazz at the Philharmonic concerts in the early '50's? Or how about when Ginger Baker and Elvin Jones faced off in London, England 20 years later? These weren't isolated incidents. Many other well-respected drummers such as Louis Bellson, Ed Shaughnessy, Max Roach, Tony Williams, and Kenny Clarke engaged in drum battles at some point in their careers. Few drumming fans would deny that these were all great artists and exceptional technicians. Without question, like today's speed drumming bouts, yesterday's drum duels were mostly flash and hype. But the art of drumming has survived and flourished nonetheless. Drum shops across the globe have always sponsored drumming competitions to attract new customers to their stores and create excitement in the community. And don't forget the ever-expanding world of drum corps. One would be hard pressed to find drummers with a greater level of control and technique. Yet the fundamental premise of drum corps involves groups competing on the playing field. Does this really discount the hard work and dedication this discipline requires? Is it not an art form like any other type of drumming? Well, of course it is. And as far as we're concerned at DRUM! encourage any effort that might draw curious onlookers to drumming. Perhaps some of them may be inspired to pick up a pair of sticks and take some lessons. And after years of practice, they hopefully will discover that drumming is an expressive art form as well as satisfying physical activity. We just can't find anything wrong with either of those things. It's all good. Andy Doerschuk (DRUM! June-July 2001 Issues) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 I really can't stand MD; I mean for the most part. I'll pick on up and find maybe 2 pages of something that interests me. I cancelled my subscription...jeez, almost 10 years ago. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb thomas Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 djarrett, that's excellent putting both back to back. I think it would be fun to have a poll and let readers vote for which editorial they most agree with. Put me down for Andy's. So that's Andy 1 Ron 0 Go ahead vote as fast as you want!!!! hehehehe. great job djarrett, Felix where would you place your vote? This message has been edited by bb thomas on 07-13-2001 at 11:05 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Let's analyse this before we get carried away. If you will look at the other WFD thread you will see where I talk about finding balance. Perhaps this is what Ron was saying ... He just went about choosing his words in a less than flattering way. If you take some of what he says (keeping it musical) and combine that with competitiveness, you will find some balance. I noted in the other thread where when I was in Drum Corps, (I was much younger) that it was Drum Corps this, and Drum Corps that! Always Drum Corps, Drum Corps, Drum Corps! Now, while I am still enthusiastic about Drum Corps and listen to it and watch it, I am equally enthusiastic about drumset drumming, or playing tympani, or any other aspect of my drumming. With age comes some wisdom ... hopefully, and with wisdom comes some balance. I eat, sleep, drink, and live percussion all day and all night ... it's great, but I also know when to turn it off. Perhaps Ron was just saying to find balance. In the process, his choice of words have just rubbed some fur the wrong way! LOL., DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 By the way, I do not know how much truth there is to this story, but I always get a chuckle out of thinking about it! Seems Buddy Rich and Louis Bellison were in a Drum Off. They were wildly trading fours! At one point, Louis (playing double bass drums) laid down a lightening fast double bass drum roll! When finished, he looked at Buddy and smiled. Buddy looked back and then looked at the crowd and smiled and without a hitch, laid down the same lightening fast roll on his single bass drum!!! The crowd went nuts! I love that story! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Yeah DJ is right, I don't think it's a black and white discussion. I've always admired the athleticism of drumming and many great drummers I've known have been athletically inclined. I think KODO is a perfect example of combining drumming and athletics while remaining totally musical and spiritual. Many great drummers I've known have also been in Drum Corps which is certainly competitive. Let's face it, great drumming requires a lot of physical endurance and discipline, like athletics, and lots of folks are stirred on to practice some of the more mundane aspects of their instrument by the prospect of healthy competition. However it is certainly possible to get carried away with that. What Ron says CAN happen if you're not careful. Certainly it's happened with shredder guitar players often enough. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif It can be easy to get caught up in the competitive aspects of playing to the point where you forget about or severely neglect the musical aspects. A great songwriter, for example, may be reluctant to hire a drummer that he or she knows is an Extreme Sport Drumming enthusiast, because they might not believe that this drummer is really tuned in to serving the song. So I guess it boils down to this: if you've already got, or are working hard on, great musical sensibilities and Extreme Sport Drumming will help you develop greater endurance, fluidity, discipline, control, etc., that can only help you and any other musicians you work with. In that case, Andy is correct. But if you allow the competitive mentality to override the musical sensibility, and that's all you care about is how fast you can play, then Ron is right, you shouldn't be doing it. It's an individual thing, not an either-or thing. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Lee: I remember how much I admire you every time you post some great jewels of thought here! For a guitar player, you sure have us drummers pegged! Got to find you the right one! Peace and love, DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinnie c. Posted July 13, 2001 Author Share Posted July 13, 2001 d.j.,I'm refering to a lot of kidding around about Ron and Andy duking it out in the w.f.d. ring,now I know that's a joke but b.b. thomas keeps writing about a charity competition between these two guys on a drumometer, I'm pretty sure that's a joke also. What i'm asking is. Are these to guys getting together in any kind of debate on the w.f.d. situation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Thanks for the kind words DJ. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Musically speaking, I HAVE recently found "the right one" (and I'm still pinching myself to make sure I'm not dreaming). I mean like, if somebody could genetically engineer a drummer to my specifications, they couldn't have done a better job than this guy. And let me tell ya, he's got it made. He gets to rehearse and record on my killer Gretsch kit (and no lugging drums around to rehearsal), he loves the way I record him, he participates in every aspect of the arrangement process... basically he gets spoiled rotten as much as possible. However, he's married, so that's about all I can do for him! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Hey, vinnie C: I feel the love! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Where have you heard that this charity drum off might happen? DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinnie c. Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 d.j.,I've been reading b.b. Thomas postings about this over at Evans board. When he comes to this board ask him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoundzapS Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 I agree somewhat. I would never want to see drumming as a sport only. I would think that guys like Art, Johnny, et al. would not encourage such a thing. I see these guys as superior drummers, musicians in all aspects, that have mastered their instrument, and then.....speed competitions. I think they can swing with the best of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidereal Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Haha! I met Andy once... a long time ago when he was editing some freebee drum mag. That seems like his personality. Personally I don't much care for either magazine and stopped reading them years ago. I find drum magazines tend to repeat themselves after a while. There's rarely anything new. As for speed drumming, I really don't give a shit. This message has been edited by sidereal on 07-14-2001 at 01:41 AM Just for the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix stein Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Hail sidereal...the truth is spoken. Blah blah blab. Shut up and play your drums anyway, anyhow, as much, as little as you can kiddies. Some will dig your trip and there will be always some that will reef on it. felix's band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrummerCafe Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 This is not in support of or against the "athletic drumming" but a contradiction in Modern Drummer's outlook and views. I can appreciate Ron Spagnardi's concerns, but some of his comments seem very hypocritical coming from a Modern Drummer editor. I too have become so sick of Modern Drummer that I rarely read the articles. All you have to do is compare the quality of the articles from issues back in the 80's versus today. I still subscribe to MD, only to check on the drum transcriptions, grooves, etc. A lot of the articles are a joke to me ... including the drummers they choose to interview. Talk about sending out the "wrong message to young people"! Modern Drummer is guilty of selling-out; reporting only what the industry wants in order sell more gear and product. It's a proven fact that teenagers represent the market when it comes to music, so the industry focuses their marketing towards them. Poor musicianship, poor technique, and bad music is heavily represented in Modern Drummer ... encouraging young people to follow in kind. MD seems to be saying ... "if you want to be successful in music, you need to look and act just like this." Don't get me wrong, MD has (from time to time) interviewed some GREAT drummers. But typically, if you aren't a major act making the big $$$ ... your opinion or story is not worthy of MD. Modern Drummer is just as guily about following the $$$ as is the music industry at large. So in closing, I just find Ron Spagnardi's comments to be a double standard. Modern Drummer magazine sends out the very message that Ron claims is bad about Athletic Drumming. Competition? What about Drum Corps? What about Public School Music Programs and the huge influence and encouragement in ratings, rankings and competition. Although I'm not a huge fan of any of these ... I don't see much difference between these things. In my opinion, they can all be (in some cases) just as "non-musical" or "non-artistic" as Athletic Drumming if you let them. I'm not bashing Drum Corps, etc., so please ... NO nasty responses! LOL http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ------------------ Bart Elliott http://bartelliott.com Drummer Cafe - community drum & percussion forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb thomas Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 bartman, i am with you. I could not have said like that, but you are right. Who is Ron fooling, do you think he is not competitive? Come on! What is his Undiscovered Contest? Is that not a cometition? YES! heis displaying huge amounts of double standards. If it is his competition then it is find, but if not then it will hurt our youth. I think if any one tells our youth that drumming is not competitive then they are doing a injustice to our youth. If kids believe drumming is not competitive then the first audition they go to they are going to be devasted by 33 other drummers cutting throat for that one gig. Anyway I believe Ron Spagnardi saying his mag. is the "World's Most Widely Read" is every bit as competitive nature as WFD. Yes Bart a huge Double Standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinnie c. Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 Speed competition has been around since the Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa battles and Barrett Deems and Louie Bellson, these guys were all known for their speed. The W.F.D. is known for the same thing, SPEED! I've been reading about peolpe saying Buddy Rich wouldn't like speed competiton, if thats true, then he didn't like what he was doing, because it's the same thing, only it's with a unit that tells it like it is. I read about a guy that says he saw Deems play and he would be lucky to break 1000 and I agree I saw him too. Deems had a way that made him appear faster then he was and that used to bug Buddy. This drumometer would of exposed Deems that he wasn't as fast as he appears. I think a lot of drummers with a REP. as a great tecnician would be affriad to expose himself for what he really is, maybe even Buddy himself. It takes real guts for a guy lke Johnny Rabb to do it in front of a lot of people. Thats a real champ and Mangini also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb thomas Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 djarrett, would it be possible to get these two editors in some kind of debate, chatline or live. I have heard some of the WFD guys talking about a possible meeting of the two minds, is this possible? How about on promarls chatline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 Hey, bb: I assume you meant ProMark (a slip of the fingers ) Give me and Boo some time. We will try to cook something up. Obviously, there seems to be one positive camp and one negative camp. The trick will be bringing the negative camp into the idea of a square-off. We shall see. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb thomas Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 Cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve52 Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 dj, do you know these editors ? Did you ever talk to them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb thomas Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Yeah, I saw Andy's post over at evan's board, he seems to be really cool with the whole idea. I have not seen anything from Ron. If djarrett knows him maybe he will come on here and post. putting the two editorials back to back is great, I love reading them, It really shows the two complete opposite point of views. I think too the views are clearly reflected throughout each editors magazine. Drum! to me seems more youth oriented, while MD seems to go after the older group and advertising driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Holmes Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 I think the key differnece here is one is talking about playing on a pad witha machine hooked up to it measuring strokes, and the other is a drum "battle" where drummers can not only "compete", but also express musically and play TOGETHER. I think the whole idea of playing singles on a bad competitively is kind of irrelevant musically. I guess I can see some novelty but I what earns my respect is the ability to support music and express yourself on the kit. -Steve Holmes webmaster, www.houseofdrumming.com Webmaster, www.houseofdrumming.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.