Middle Eastern scale and chords? UPDATE: harmony attempt...

[Gruuve]

Hey folks:

 

My wife wants to take a belly-dancing class...I'm all for it. Figured I better learn a couple Arabic-sounding scales.

 

So, here's one I really like, not sure if it has a name: (W = whole step, H = half step, m3 = minor 3rd)

 

H m3 H W H m3 H

 

Essentially, it's a major scale with a flatted 2nd and flatted 6th.

 

Main question: Do you fit chords to scale degrees the same way that you would with a Major or Minor scale? I'd assume the answer is "yes"...you simply build a triad on each degree, and insure each note in the triad is actually in the scale. Correct, or are there other considerations?

 

My standard notation s/w (Melody Assistant) doesn't have this scale as one of it's choices. But, looks like it lets me modify the key signature that I've chosen with additional flats, sharps, or naturals. Cool.

 

TIA!

Dave

[jmrunning3]

Dave, I'm not totally certain, but I thought I read somewhere that Middle Eastern music had many more notes than what we westerners use. I also seem to remember that their scales didn't follow the same W/H steps we use either.

 

If I come across something, I'll post it.

[Gruuve]

Jim...I think you're thinking more of Indian/Asian I believe...known for lots of quarter tones. That could be executed on a fretless though...

 

I might end up creating some stuff that has funk grooves over middle eastern scales. Belly-Funk anyone? Could be dead sex-ay....

 

Dave

[Phil W]

I studied middle-eastern music for a while. Joe is right that there are a lot of quarter tones. I was studying the modes (maqams) and rhythmic modes and playing them on fretless.

The music is originally monophonic, but nowadays many North African and Middle Eastern musicians combine the melodies with Western harmony. Listen to Rai from Algeria to get an idea.

The bass role is not usually melodic, I was studing the melodic lines of the melody instruments. Some modern Arabic musicians make use of basslines with flavours of the maqams though.

[Phil W]

http://www.zehara.co.uk/middleeasternmusic.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maqam

 

http://www.harelshachal.com/page10.html

 

It's also interesting to compare the modes of Jewish music; given the complexities of history there are some similarities. Jewish melodic patterns are also rewarding to study. Listen to how modern musicians like the Hasidic New Wave use them.

 

 

To hear Arabic scales in a modern funk/dance context, check out Transglobal Underground and Natasha Atlas. Then the Rai bands like Cheb Khaled and others/ Morrocan music is another intersting area to study - as is Egyptian music.

[Gruuve]

Cool...thanks Phil, will check these out!

 

Dave

[jeremy c]

Interesting articles, Phil, thanks!

 

In the Israeli band with whom I play we have a taksim section in many songs.

 

We've also had musicians from Morocco, Egypt and Palestine sit in with very good results. We've also jammed with other Jewish musicians from Iraq and North Africa.

 

We even knew some of the same songs: Linda, Linda was one.

 

Yes, we had a very peaceful jam session with Israeli Jews, American Jews, Palestinian Muslims, and Egyptian Christians. We found common ground in our music.

 

There are very definitely quarter tones in Middle Eastern music. The violinist who was playing with us (an American who has since emigrated to Israel) played them all the time. Our singer also uses quarter tones.

 

There is an Egyptian instrument called the Kunnun or Qunnun or other various spelling which is like a hammered dulcimer and also like a pedal steel guitar in that there are all kinds of levers to get the "notes between the notes." One of the players of this instrument was present at one of our jam sessions.

 

I also have seen a local guitarist who has twice as many frets on his guitar so he can play all the quarter tones. My friend Matthew Montfort has scalloped his entire fretboard for the same reason.

 

I don't dare play fretless when I'm playing with these guys.

 

Here\'s Linda Linda by 3 Mustaphas 3. They're not a very authentic group but they are a lot of fun.

[Gruuve]

Wait...wouldn't you need four times as many frets to play quarter tones?

 

So, what's the answer to my actual question? With the scale above, would you generally build chords using the scale tones, or is there more trick to it?

 

Dave

[Bottomgottem]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave Sisk:

My wife wants to take a belly-dancing class...I'm all for it.

 

I dug this up for you. Maqamworld.com

 

It looks interesting, though I should probably get a little better at Western music forms before I tackle Arabic. Have fun.

[jeremy c]

Quarter tones are halfway between the half steps so twice as many frets is enough.

 

A quarter tone is one quarter of a whole step.

[Phil W]

"So, what's the answer to my actual question? With the scale above, would you generally build chords using the scale tones, or is there more trick to it?

 

Dave"

 

AS I said above, the music is essentially monophonic anything alse is a fusion. You can fuse it anyway you want. You could build chords using the scale tones or - if you have a certain melody, you could choose chords that work with that particular melodic fragment at that time.

 

E.g You could us ethe whole scale (assuming in C)over Cmajor7 or Cmajor7#5 or Db/C etc using the tones from the mode or if for instance a composed or improvised melody is using part of that scale; the accompanist or composer could use anything that might fit with the rules of harmony at that moment, depending on the tone colour he or she wanted (even if that chord did not fit over the rest of the scale- unplayed at that moment).

[Phil W]

That's a fusion perspective - here's an essay on the use of harmony in Arabic music from the excellent site linked by Bottomgottem.

 

http://www.saedmuhssin.com/harmony.html

[Gruuve]

OK, cool...I see this is just going to require some (fun) experimentation. Thanks guys!

 

Dave

[Tom Capasso]

Break out the fretless?

 

I played with a guy from Iran once - he was on a native instrument and had 1/4 tones, but the few songs we played used them more in passing than as part of the structure (there was no C+1/4 chord). It was very interesting and I enjoyed it.

 

Tom

[Phil W]

It is cool on fretless though. In a different style we have a guy in England from India who plays Indian music on the fretless, Shri

http://www.shri.co.uk/

 

It can be fun to play Middle Eastern music on fretless (especially to develop your fretless playing), though I've never done that in performance yet.

 

I have some friends in Japan in a group called Rabisari who play Arabic music (oud, vocals and percussion).

 

Their stuff is very good, singing in bith Japanese and Arabic.

[Gruuve]

Hey folks:

 

OK, I figured it would be a good exercise in music theory to try to build the harmony on the scale I talked about above. Check this URL:

 

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/music/scales/

 

The MP3 file is an audio rendering of the scale, first 16 beats are the scale tones up and down, next 8 beats are my attempt at fitting chords to the scale tones (haven't put the same harmony to the last 8 beats).

 

The PDF file is the standard notation. I've added chord symbols, although I'm not sure all my chord symbols are actually right. (JC, Phil, someone...will you "grade" my work? )

 

I also posted the midi file in case anyone else wants to tinker with this.

 

In a nutshell, the triads on the first four scale degrees ended up being major, major, minor, and minor. The triads are all notes that are in the scale of course (and on the 3rd degree, either a major or minor 3rd would have been in the scale, but I chose a minor 3rd because it seemed to keep the arabic flavor better). This part sounds good to my ear, and still retains the "arabic" flavor of the scale.

 

However, the 5th, 6th, and 7th scale degrees still need a little work (7th degree might be OK, but can't tell until I get the 5th and 6th degrees sounding "right"). Since 3rds and 5th's weren't always scale tones, I ended up with the 5th degree being a major chord with a dimished 5th, the 6th degree is a major chord with a sharp 5th, and the 7th degree is a sus2 chord with a dimished 5th (ie. root, Major 2nd, and Diminished 5th...would that be a D#2dim5 or D3sus2dim5?) These are all scale tones, no accidentals.

 

Anyway, give it a look/listen, and let me know what you think...

 

Dave

[jmrunning3]

Wow, lots of good information! I never went back and researched, so I didn't post any links myself. Sorry about that.

 

I remember reading an article about Jimmy Page and the Beatles studying Middle Eastern/Asian/Indian music. Jimmy Page used many alternate tunings to accomodate the different scales. I wish I knew where I read that, as it was very interesting.

[Phil W]

Dave, you should listen to Duke Ellington's 'Far East Suite'. That's waht your chords reminded me of in some way. Obviously any superimposition of this type is a Westernisation and fusion of a middle-eastern musical concept but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

If you treat the whole scale modally you have the following tones available (and you can build chords in any way on them my ear) - it might be interesting to take different approaches (e.g. build something inn fourths of play chords over unusual roots)

 

Note -when I write 7 it is the perfect rather than the flattened seventh

 

e.g in C

 

On C: 1, 3, 5, 7, #9, 11, b13

 

On Db: 1, 3, 5, 7, #9, #11, #13(=b7)

 

On E: 1, b3, 5, bb7 (=13), 9, b11 (=p10), 13

 

On F: 1, b3, 5, 7, 9, #11, b13

 

On G: 1, 3, b5, b7, b9, 11, 13

 

On Ab: 1, 3, #5, b7, #9, 11, 13

 

On B: 1, bb3(=2), b5, bb7, b9, 11, 13 - that is a weird one

 

(apologies for the inevitable typos there, it's just the scale starting on each note in turn written out in alternate notes)

 

You could build chords in lots of ways from these intervals.

 

Part of a characteristic sound of the scale might be to alternate C major 7 and Db major 7

 

I would suggest the following triads:

 

C major, Db major, E minor, Fminor, G major flattened 5 (OK - th's strange but logical), Ab augmented, B diminished (oops, I made an error here - it should be Bsus (B sus 2 would also be OK)

 

But you could try things like Db major7/C F minor/G or other things.

 

Take a listen to Page and Plant's No Quarter with the Egyptian strings and percussion and the Moroccan bands.

 

 

Another, more authentic approach, would be to voice a melody or countermelody in thirds rather tha full chords to imply the parallel motion that can exist in Arabic music implying harmony - possibly this might work well over some kind of drone or repetitive figure in the bass.

[Phil W]

The connection with Duke's approch is that rather than compose in the style of the places he was describing. He composed in his normal style with slight elements influenced by the place he was describing - so it is still his music but creating a kind of image of the place/culture's effect on him rather than just a picture postcard of the scene. Chekc it out, it's very deep music. I think Zawinul was trying to do something similar on Cannonball and Miles on Get Up With It.

Sorry for the OT!

[Gruuve]

Hey Phil:

 

Thanks for the post. Your list of chord intervals looks almost like what I have done so far. In particular, the 1-4 degrees with major, major, minor, minor *sounds right* when I listen to it. Still working through those next 3 degrees though.

 

The countermelody idea is a good one too. May have to give that approach a try as well.

 

This is a quite educational exercise!

 

Dave

[Phil W]

For Bottom End.

 

As requested.

 

The scale described by Dave Sisk at the start is called Hijazskiar in Greek. It's the one used in Miserlou by Dick Dale (as used in Pulp Fiction).

 

[Bottom End]

Man, I never made the connection between the two before.

 

I forgot to ask, or I missed it above, but does the tuning change?

[1111000]

Semi-OT: Are you going to the belly dancing classes too? It's really fun and a great workout as long as you can get over the shock of rethinking how your body works.