New songs at rehearsal

[Ross Brown]

I swear sometimes I wonder if our guitarists know what they are playing. At rehearsal if we are running through a new song that someone wants to try that has some more complex chord changes and I ask for the changes, they have trouble telling me. I like to chart the changes on paper. The visual then sticks in my head. (It takes me a minute to chart it good enough for practice, so it cant be impatience).

 

Two things happen:

 

They have trouble telling me what the chords are.

They often leave something out.

 

If it is a blues progression, I dont usually need any help. I can pick them out by ear pretty quickly. It is the other pop songs

 

Just wondering if others have seen this. It is not really a problem. We usually have a work list ahead of time or we can always come back to it next week. Just funny to me.

 

BTW, these guys are very talented and a blast to play with. They both have many years of experience. Must be a right brain, left brain thing.

[Rowbee]

I very rarely ask a guitarist such questions for the very same reasons. Not to disrespect our six string second cousins but of the guitarists I've played with, I find it hard getting chord names or details out of them.

[The Bear Jew]

Sometimes I can't even tell what the exact chords are that some guitarists use... what with the wacky tunings and odd fingerings...

 

So... I just listen and play along until I land on the right stuff to do. It's a trial-and-error process, but I'm pretty good at it by now. It actually usually only takes two passes before I find something that works.

[picker]

Speaking as a guitarist who plays bass, most guitarists are not trained musically, and they don't think of chords in terms of the intervals that construct them. Trying to think of what exact chord they are playing while they are playing it would only slow most of them down. They think in terms of how the chord sounds, noit what it's called. They would probably be able to tell you the tonic note or key the chord is in, but it wold probably get pretty vague beyond that.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by Picker:

Speaking as a guitarist who plays bass, most guitarists are not trained musically, and they don't think of chords in terms of the intervals that construct them. Trying to think of what exact chord they are playing while they are playing it would only slow most of them down. They think in terms of how the chord sounds, noit what it's called. They would probably be able to tell you the tonic note or key the chord is in, but it wold probably get pretty vague beyond that.

I laugh (to myself) when I ask them. They kinda stutter and stammer and look at the fretboard and back at me at back at the fretboard.

 

I guess it is not that strange. Just seems strange. I am learning something new every day.

[DC Ross]

There have been times that I've told the guitar player in my band what chord he was playing

To be fair, though, I've been playing guitar for the better part of 20 years

[tnb]

I don't see a problem at all, unless the chords being played by the guitarist are wrong. Does it sound like something is missing? If you are playing a Bb and the guitarist is playing an Ab what you have is a suspended 9 chord - it's function could be absolutely correct. However, if you ask the guitar player what he/she is playing and they tell you Ab, you change the bass note instead of trusting your ear, suddenly you bad or suspect progression.

 

This is a watered down explanation, but I hope you get what I'm saying. Maybe one of the forum members that are better at explaining theory will post and clear this up for you.

 

It would improve your ear dramatically if you didn't ask what the changes were and worked out the difficult progressions on your own away from rehearsal. It will give you a much larger view of the music.

[Ross Brown]

Yep. Most of the time I do work them out away from rehearsal. I can usually fake my way through until I have time to work them out alone. I am just surprised that when I ask, I don't get a good answer a lot of the times. When they ask me, I can tell them what I am playing, but I am not looking at the multitude of chord voicings that they are.

 

Not a problem, just interesting to me. As I said, they are fantastic musicians.

[chubby]

First of all what is a rehearsal?

[mcbn]

My favorite question: What root note are you going to in that change?

 

My least-favorite answer: Oh, it is the 4th fret of this (points to A string) string.

 

You gotta plsy with the cards that you are dealt and know when to play a C sharp.

[TimR]

I think that's a sweeping generalisation. But I did once get the reply "First its G sharp then its E flat."

[Paul K]

Ross: Boy, you struck a nerve with me! What burns my butt is how this turns into a time sink at rehersal just 'cause the illiterate guitar player can't speak the language but still couldn't take the time to shoot you an mp3 of the "really cool new tune" two days before rehersal. I hate that more than the clarinet. And I really, really, really hate the clarinet.

 

Peace (but I'm not feelin' the love right now...)

Paul K

[Rowbee]

This is also a sweeping statement but I've personally had a lot of experience with guitarists who have "kind of" learnt the new track when you shot them an mp3 two weeks ago.

[picker]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

I laugh (to myself) when I ask them. They kinda stutter and stammer and look at the fretboard and back at me at back at the fretboard.

Well, next time you feel that way, pull out Billy Cobhams's Spectrum album, and remember that Tommy Bolin, the guitarist on that session, couldn't read a note, and Cobham knew that going in. A lot of people who can read music can't play worth a crap(Yoko Ono comes to mind), and then there are people like Bolin...

[Rob J Beech]

to follow on,

 

guitarists (or other) who can't tell you what key the music is in let alone the chord.

I'm new here so apologies if its already been mentioned.

 

Not knowing the starting key is bad enough. Telling me it starts in the key of E when its clearly A just starting on V REALLY gets to me.

 

the beatles - She's a woman is an example from experience.

 

Bass isn't even playing until we get to the chord of A (A7 but still).

 

Rob

[Big Red 67]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

Originally posted by Picker:

Speaking as a guitarist who plays bass, most guitarists are not trained musically, and they don't think of chords in terms of the intervals that construct them. Trying to think of what exact chord they are playing while they are playing it would only slow most of them down. They think in terms of how the chord sounds, noit what it's called. They would probably be able to tell you the tonic note or key the chord is in, but it wold probably get pretty vague beyond that.

I laugh (to myself) when I ask them. They kinda stutter and stammer and look at the fretboard and back at me at back at the fretboard.

 

I guess it is not that strange. Just seems strange. I am learning something new every day.

Sometimes if the chord is complex it can take a computation to figure out what the chord is. I play chords on guitar that I have to do the theory on them to figure it out.

[Phil W]

I agree with CMDN. Just listen guys and play along. Either you might be able to hear what the chords are or make up the bassline that sounds good regardless. (Or record it and work it out later)I have occasionally approached songs without thinking about what the chords are but just listening and playing something appropriate. You usually end up with a more interesting bassline that way.

[thanny XIII]

one of the bands im in he didnt know the root, and we were playing fing power chords. very very sad, guitarists are mehs.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by Paul Kempkes:

Ross: Boy, you struck a nerve with me! What burns my butt is how this turns into a time sink at rehersal just 'cause the illiterate guitar player can't speak the language but still couldn't take the time to shoot you an mp3 of the "really cool new tune" two days before rehersal. I hate that more than the clarinet. And I really, really, really hate the clarinet.

 

Peace (but I'm not feelin' the love right now...)

Paul K

Had this happen on Saturday at rehearsal. Guitarist started "sharing" new song in the middle of working out some difficult parts of another song. Band leader shut him down. It was cool, nicely done.

[Eric VB]

Yes, there are two valid ways of approaching music.

 

Ear and Theory.

 

Like Erik said, when working out the guitar parts to a song by ear, you're not always dealing with nice power chords or barre chords or traditional open chords where you can say in an instant what chord you're playing. You're just trying to match the sound.

 

So maybe you're playing just two notes. Quick! What chord are you playing on bass if you're playing 23rd fret on the G string and 22nd fret on the D string? (Yeah, I know, your bass doesn't have 24 frets, but imagine it did.)

 

Ever try to do it the other way 'round? Try teaching a guitarist a song they've never heard before by rifling off chord names. Chances are it won't sound anything like the recording, in a not so good way, because for example there are many ways to play even a Cmaj chord. (Some songbooks that use simplified chords/transcriptions have that same ungroovey sound.)

 

Should you know what you're playing? Sure. Even if you have to count up from the open string pitch every time, you should know the names of the notes you play.

 

Should you be able to hear what chord is being played? Sure. Even if you have to fumble around for the pitches, you should be able to pick it up without looking at the guitarist's fretboard. (Or worse yet, having him show you what to play.)

 

[bTW, being able to read a guitarist's fretboard can get you out of trouble in a pinch when you can't quite hear what he's playing, but try not to become too dependent on that because it becomes a crutch and limits the development of your ear. Besides, what do you do when you find you have to play with a keyboardist?]

 

It is a waste of rehearsal time, though, to try to teach a cover song to your bandmates, especially if they've never heard it before. So much easier to give everybody a recording to work out on their own. (Originals might be a different story, especially for a jam band.)

 

The next time someone brings a song to practice like that, take it as an opportunity to work your ear and improv skills. If you record the rehearsal, you can always go back later and analyze everything to make your chord chart. It's pretty liberating, though, to be able to play a song entirely by ear that you've never heard before. And it's quite a rush to sit in with musicians you've never met before and just jam!

 

So, yes, your guitarist should probably learn his instrument/theory better, so he can answer questions like, "What chord is that?" OTOH, with a good ear, you'll never have to ask.

[Ross Brown]

What I like about this forum is that I can ask a question like this expecting the answer to be just as I think it should be. (in this case, I was expecting that everyone would chime in and say yea, guitarists should be able to tell you what they are playing, etc). I have gained years of pseudoexperience by bouncing questions off of this forum and reading other threads.

 

It helps define normal.

 

I can usually just jam in those cases when I don't know a song. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. I only ask for chords etc when I can't get it.

 

I have also thought about playing something so outragous that everyone has to stop and tell me what they are doing, just to get me to stop....

 

Probably won't do that. Not good form.

[Big Red 67]

It is funny to watch guitarist look at my fretless and try to figure out what to play. (No markers on the fretboard) Plus sometimes I play non traditional notes.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by Big Red 67:

It is funny to watch guitarist look at my fretless and try to figure out what to play. (No markers on the fretboard) Plus sometimes I play non traditional notes.

Rythym guitarist sometimes watches me for changes but he is new.

 

"Fretless" thing is funny...

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by Big Red 67:

It is funny to watch guitarist look at my fretless and try to figure out what to play. (No markers on the fretboard) Plus sometimes I play non traditional notes.

I play non-traditional note too ... is that what they are called? I called the grace notes