Gallien-Krueger + Ampeg 810.

[Bass_god_offspring]

Hey guys,

 

So i've been noticing something very recently.

 

Many of the rock bands i see perform live in person and on videos have bassist that use a Gallien-Krueger Head, and an Ampeg 810.

 

For some reason this combination is VERY loud. I noticed it when i played a show with my rig

(Carvin R1000, Carvin 410, and Behringer 115, total system: 1000 watts @ 4 ohms), and i had to turn up to the point where both of the internal power amps (set to the save level) were peaking all too often.

 

The bassist after me had a Gallien-Krueger head and an Ampeg 810, and his rig had no problems being just as loud as mine, and his settings were much lower (though a close match to my tone).

 

So my question:

 

Do some Bass head and cab combination just work better than others?

 

I've seen multiple bassist use this combo live, and it tends to sound very good, and with plenty of headroom.

 

Could it be my rig, even though nothing on mine is especially boosted to all hell (Eq'd similiar to a slap style bassist).

 

 

thanks!

 

[way2fat]

Yes. You need to think about trading your rig for bigger, louder gear.

[Edendude]

I know one thing...

 

My GK 1001RB through my 4x10 cab with my 2x10 on top, can get bloody LOUD. There's no doubt about that. The GK heads don't run out of headroom in a hurry.

 

I played a 350 head room with a sixty foot wide stage, a while back. The FOH guy took me out of the mains.

 

Also...

 

Consider the fact that an 8x10 will move more air than a 4x10 with a 1x15.

[Fred TBP]

yes, some custom matches sound better than the stock ones.

I've been mixing and matching for over 30 years and as long as you respect the power/resistance ratings on the equipment you shouldn't have any problems.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Bass_god_offspring:

...a Gallien-Krueger Head, and an Ampeg 810...For some reason this combination is VERY loud.

 

vs.

 

....(Carvin R1000, Carvin 410, and Behringer 115, total system: 1000 watts @ 4 ohms), and i had to turn up to the point where both of the internal power amps (set to the save level) were peaking all too often...(Eq'd similiar to a slap style bassist).

Funny, I feel like I've said this before:

 

FOR ****'s SAKE, IT'S YOUR ****ing EQ!!!

 

WHY DO YOU ASK FOR ADVICE, THEN FAIL TO TAKE IT, AND THEN ASK THE SAME QUESTION WITH A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WORDING 6 MONTHS LATER?!!!

 

And that Behringer 15" cab - face it, it's rubbish. Why waste valuable power on it, let alone bother carrying it to gigs. Though I suppose it makes a nice solid amp stand.

 

"but yeah, lol it's cool because it sounded cool in the shop and i need to move lots of air because we're a 3 piece and I want to feel the bass and i don't like too much mids because it doesn't sound as cool "

 

There you needn't even reply now, I've done it for you. Aren't I nice?

 

Alex

[getz out]

Buy it.

[thanny XIII]

I agree.

[alexclaber]

Better than that - buy two.

 

Alex

[thanny XIII]

you rock alexander!

[Big Daddy from Motown]

BGO In answer to your question no not really.

You need plenty of power to move lots of air, and you've got it in spades.

 

The biggest difference in the 2 rigs you've described is the efficiency of each speaker cab.

 

If a given speaker is 3DB's more efficient than another it will take only half as much power to be as loud. Is an Ampeg 3 DB more efficient than a Beringer? frankly I don't know.

 

Alex is right about the smiley face EQ curve being inefficient. You cut the mids that will make your bass loud. However you have to EQ to achieve the tone you desire. I would rather carry enough gear to get a sound that makes me happy than boost mids just to be loud enough. I can get away with 500 watts and 4 10's in my band.

[The Bear Jew]

The backline at Don Hill's in NYC has that exact head/cab set-up--GK head and Ampeg 8x10.

 

It's lovely to play through this rig, and the best part is... I don't have to break it down later and carry it home.

[alexclaber]

You know why so many rock bassists love sealed 8x10" cabs?

 

Because however much you screw up the EQ they do an excellent job of ignoring it and still sounding punchy and midrangey with not much deep bottom. The sealed 10"s hardly put out anything around the low note fundamentals so cranking sub 80Hz doesn't do much, and and the lack of a tweeter means that you don't get the icepick in the ear when you crank the treble because that's what your hero does.

 

And the louder you get, the more they do this, as the internal air pressure and low speaker Xmax (linear excursion) causes serious low frequency compression.

 

If you want to bang away mindlessly at the bass, there is no better cab to use than a sealed 8x10". Or to be honest, go one better and get a Bergantino 6x10", which is louder, lighter, clearer, punchier and deeper - yet everyone still buys the Ampeg 8x10" - oh, I love designer labels...

 

Alex

[The Bear Jew]

Yo Alex, my man...

You seem a little cranky this morning. Did someone miterate in your breakfast cereal?

 

I kid, I kid... I kid because I love.

 

The Bergie 6x10 actually sounds quite charming. I may have to look at one of those.

 

By the way, "banging away mindlessly" reminds me of my own style... in bass playing and in love.

[getz out]

I love the SVT810 cabinet. It sounds good, especially when it is paired with a proper head (I'll take a real SVT on top of it). It is one of the sounds in my head.

 

I owned the exact setup. It sounded great. All together, it weighed in at 300 lbs.

 

I sold it. Why? Because it weighed in at 300 lbs.

 

I have played through the Bergantino NV610. It rocks, but is sounds very different than an SVT810. An SVT810 has abusive midrange. The Bergantino is much more refined.

 

I also owned a Carvin R1000 head that BGO is using. It was a good head. I loved it for the price, and for me it was nicer than the solid-state Ampeg, lower end SWR, Eden, and GK heads. I sold it because it was heavy, I purchased a nice set of separates, and I found someone to pay me pretty much full retail price if I threw in a rack-bag. Worked for me.

 

The head would drive my Ampeg SVT410HE... and it was loud. It would also drive my Acme Low B2 and it was loud.

 

BGO, read the manual again and try to figure out why you are not loud.

[Fred TBP]

I've seen lots of basses with very poor setups where the pickups are 1/2-inch (12.7mm) or more from the strings. Also weak pickups, cheap controls, very cheap onboard preamps, rusty control cavities, dirty pots, strings so old you get rust on your fingers, etc. And people expect to plug these into huge rigs and get a lot of output in return.

 

Now if that ain't enough to fry your bacon, what do you think of people who spend thousands on a boutique bass and then try to play it using a $15 (12.341 Euros) guitar cable? Or a cable that's so old the copper is starting to rust inside the shieding?

 

All the hardware on stage isn't worth it if you don't set your bass up to produce the singal correctly. Now I don't know how you set up your bass, BGO, but at least tell me you've checked all this out and you know it's not your bass or your cable.

 

Incidentally, the same applies to speaker and power cable. Your mama's lamp cord ain't good enough to make do as a speaker cable, and that skinny brown extension cord you unplugged from the clock in your bedroom ain't gonna pull 1,000 watts outta the wall socket downtown. So if you spend good money on quality equipment, spend a little more to make it work right.

OK, two posts should be enough. Flame on!

[Bass_god_offspring]

Actually, sorry, i wasn't 100% clear on my post.

 

I actually have changed the EQ since last time and still, no real difference in power output.

 

what i think is that it has something to do with the cabs.

 

Normally, (to anyone who has owned Carvin Gear) should my passive fender jazz make my power amps peak constantly when the gain is on "Zero", and the master volume is at five?

 

all of my cabling is fine, becuase i've tested it with different cables and different basses.

 

I badly want to buy something in the range of two 410's, a 610, or maybe (just maybe) an 810 (though not an Ampeg becuase i don't need all that munch midrange).

 

sorry if i wasn't clear.

 

behringer's are crap, i know that fo sho.

[saxofunk]

Originally posted by Bass_god_offspring:

Normally, (to anyone who has owned Carvin Gear) should my passive fender jazz make my power amps peak constantly when the gain is on "Zero", and the master volume is at five?

Carvin uses a gain knob that's marked from -12 to 0 to +12, right? Zero is straight up, so that's about right, on most amps gain is good from 11 O'clock to 1 O'Clock (-3 to +3 or there 'bout).

[Bass_god_offspring]

Carvin uses a gain knob that's marked from -12 to 0 to +12, right? Zero is straight up, so that's about right, on most amps gain is good from 11 O'clock to 1 O'Clock (-3 to +3 or there 'bout).

correct.

 

With that setting, i only clip the gain on those open E's hit pretty hard.

[Tom Capasso]

Mr. Wet Blanket here. I wouldn't buy anything until you know what's going on for sure. I tend to agree about the cabs as a likely trouble point.

 

Someone else will have to address the clipping on input issue, but I'd try turning down the gain. Gain (and therefore input clipping) is usually a function of everything in your preamp. That's EQ, bass signal, and gain control. I've not read the manual for Carvin (Getz has a good idea there), but I've read 4 other manuals that talk about setting your gain control with the EQ flat, then set the gain so that you clip slightly on the hardest-played notes. As you adjust your EQ, you need to re-check your gain for the clipping. You may have to turn the gain down or up to get back to the "rare clipping" level.

 

What happens with volume after that depends on lots of non-preamp functions. Like biamping, speaker impedence, and so on.

 

Tom

[getz out]

Do not listen to Tom.

 

I would like to point out Tom has excessive patience. He not only spent 5 years deciding on which bass to purchase, he spent an additional year deciding on a cabinet. After that, he took another two years to finally buy an amplifier head.

 

Buy the Ampeg 810 cabinet. Now. Go. Buy it.

[ArwinH]

Originally posted by getz76:

Do not listen to Tom.

 

I would like to point out Tom has excessive patience. He not only spent 5 years deciding on which bass to purchase, he spent an additional year deciding on a cabinet. After that, he took another two years to finally buy an amplifier head.

 

Buy the Ampeg 810 cabinet. Now. Go. Buy it.

If I had to represent my conscience by two figures, Tom would be on one shoulder with a halo over his head, Maury............would be on the other shoulder

[Bass_god_offspring]

Do not listen to Tom.

 

I would like to point out Tom has excessive patience. He not only spent 5 years deciding on which bass to purchase, he spent an additional year deciding on a cabinet. After that, he took another two years to finally buy an amplifier head.

 

Buy the Ampeg 810 cabinet. Now. Go. Buy it.

hahaha, oh my god, you guys are great..crack me up.

 

So today, i used a digital dB meter and placed it one foot away from the center of my top and bottom cabs. When i hit and open E at normal volume it read "126 dB".

 

Does that sound about right? the meter has a few different settings, but most of them read the same number.

 

(for reference, just drums and guitar in a small 12 ft x 12ft room read about 118)

 

The odd thing is, that when i turn my gain down, i must turn my "master volume" up to get the same level, thus still causing the "peaking" on the master.

 

Tomorrow i'll be taking my amp and bass (along with cables and such) to the local Guitar Center and testing them out on a few different cabs to see if i can make some comparisons and maybe figure out the problem (i'll also be checking the dB meter).

 

thanks so much for all of your help guys, i know i might be a bit of a pain to respond to sometimes, but it helps tremendiously.

 

[A Head with Wings]

You're not satisfied with 126 dB? You sure do have a problem, but it has nothing to do with your rig.

[Big Daddy from Motown]

If you are at 126 DB I strongly suspect that's all the watts your amp can put put @ 40 HZ.

To put this all into perspective That's it, if you had another 2 speaker cabs and another head it would only go up to 129 DB's.

 

Youre playing to loud!

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Bass_god_offspring:

i hit and open E at normal volume it read "126 dB". Does that sound about right?

Please tell me you wear earplugs. Otherwise your hearing is so ****ed. How the hell can 126dB be normal volume?!! Ok, so maybe you stand 4ft away from your cabs so that's only 120dB, but that's just the bass at normal volume, add the guitar and drums and, oh dear...

 

Originally posted by Bass_god_offspring:

for reference, just drums and guitar in a small 12 ft x 12ft room read about 118)

This also suggests that it's not totally your band playing too loud, it's you playing too loud for your already loud band. Aren't you handling some vocals now? You will all sound so much better if you can learn to turn the volume knob the other way.

 

Originally posted by Bass_god_offspring:

The odd thing is, that when i turn my gain down, i must turn my "master volume" up to get the same level, thus still causing the "peaking" on the master.

Nothing odd about that. You turn your gain down on the preamp so you have to make up that volume on the power amp. And therefore you run out of power amp headroom again.

 

Originally posted by Bass_god_offspring:

...see if i can...maybe figure out the problem...

Seems we've found the problem already. You're playing way too loud.

 

Originally posted by Bass_god_offspring:

i know i might be a bit of a pain to respond to sometimes

Whatever makes you think that?

 

Alex

[getz out]

Okay, I'll reassess my statement from before.

 

Buy two SVT810s.

[getz out]

And an SVT head.

[alexclaber]

Safe Exposure Time vs Exposure Level (measured in dB SPL):

 

8 Hours @ 90 dB SPL

6 Hours @ 92 dB SPL

4 Hours @ 95 dB SPL

3 Hours @ 97 dB SPL

2 Hours @ 100 dB SPL

1.5 Hours @ 102 dB SPL

1 Hours @ 105 dB SPL

30 Minutes @ 110 dB SPL

<15 Minutes @115 dB SPL

 

See if you can get some -25dB musicians earplugs thrown in with the dual SVT 810 deal.

 

Alex

[Big Daddy from Motown]

And a cople of roadies to cart it around. And a Chevy Van for the roadies to drive.

[alexclaber]

Actually, here's a far louder, bassier and cheaper solution, which you can run from your Carvin. Get one of Bill Fitzmaurice's approved builders ( http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/builders.html ) to make you one of these:

 

DR280 horn-loaded 1x12" (24x 24 x 24 <70lbs)

 

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/plans/images/sideview%20a.jpg

 

and one of these:

 

Tuba 36 slim horn-loaded 1x15" (36"x36"x24" <150lbs)

 

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/plans/images/Slim.jpg

 

Should cost less for both than a single Ampeg 8x10" would.

 

And how loud will they go? Check out the blue lines on these plots:

 

With your Carvin running in biamp mode, so each cab gets 500W, the top cab will put out this: (add ~26dB to the plot below to get max RMS output - peak will be even higher):

 

http://billfitzmaurice.com/dr280-ev252.gif

 

and the sub will put out this: (again add ~26dB to the plot below to get max RMS output - peak will be even higher):

 

http://billfitzmaurice.com/T36HJBL728.gif

 

I'll put that in simpler terms: between the two cabs at least 102dB @1W1m from 40Hz to 20kHz, and more like 108dB @1W1m where it really matters. Stick 500W RMS into that and you're looking at max output of 138dB @1W1m. That's over 140dB at 1 foot from the cabs. If that isn't too loud, then you're clinically deaf - or will be soon.

 

Thanny XIII - you might want to get some of these as well - make a dual SVT rig seem rather pathetic in comparison...

 

Alex