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Bergantino's New Line


dohhhhh6

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This news was already tagged onto an existing Berg thread here a few days ago. And WOW! Sure some bigtime hyping going on at talkbass. Flave of the month, with poor Bob Lee of QSC taking crap from ignoramuses in the bargain - a bunch of old fallout recirculating from Jim Bergantino's blanket dissing of all Class D designs a year or so back.
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I just started using an AI Focus SA III digital amp with my Bergie HT112. So far I love it. I'm gonna gig it this week and see how it goes. I think it sounds more full than the "conventional" power amp I was using before.

 

I might like the all-in-one thing, but knowing my rate of change, I think I'll stick with the cab for now.

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It wouldn't be an all-in-one (also known as a "combo") anyway. You'd still need a "preamp" {ones without many knobs that cost way more are now being called by the boutique name, "line driver" these days -- although when it was trendy to call them DIs, that too was a Big Deal;}
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well, you don't necessarily need one -- with a 1V sensitivity, many onboard preamps will drive the IP cabs.

 

and, really, it's no wonder bob lee has so much say. maybe he really does have something to defend. after all, it's not the switch-mode supply, but the general cost-design that makes qsc what they are. it's clever straw man on his part.

 

robb.

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Well, my PLX compare well with my DPC-1400X which outrocks other class D I've worked with. And in the current thread, for the most part all Bob Lee has defended is that comparisons should always be made with matched gain. Since QSC PLX series requires a lot of signal to fully drive, I don't think it odd to insert logic into arguments such as this -- being that many who whined about them never understood what the h3!! one should have to do that for (and didn't).
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what class is your PLX? i'll give you a hint: it's the same as my crest pro 7200, which also has a SMPS. didn't you get the memo? i don't work for peavey any more, so it ain't about brand loyalty.

 

i don't disagree with his assertion that gains should be matched for the comparison, but the clever straw man that he creates is that the argument is about gain instead of suitability for a system. he's not lying, but he's certainly telling people they're wrong for not preferring his product over the competition, even if the competiton's product is more suitable for the customer's needs than his product.

 

straw man. changing the argument to deflect from the actual issue. i wonder why he does that?

 

robb.

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It seems to me that you are doing that more than he is doing it. And you are making product suitability a defined object that you yourself determine instead of leaving it up to me, the reader, the buyer.

 

Sorry robb. but youy insinuate much, but I'm not buying your strawman arguments. Bob Lee had a right after threads of several years of being dumped on to speak. And he spoke, without marbles in his mouth.

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for the particular customers in question, the CA amps are more suitable by their own proclamation. in repeating that, no universal definition of suitable was stated or implied. i mean, i decided to modify my preamp to have more output so it could better drive my relatively insensitive power amp -- much as would have been useful with a higher power PLX. does that mean i'm going against the CA amps' implied universal suitability?

 

the subtext is very obvious in what Bob Lee argues: if you're not buying a QSC, you're clearly not educated enough to know you're wrong. i mean, again, he's absolutely right that an A/B test without matching gains is foolish. and he uses that argument because he knows he can win that one.

 

but the argument that that is what it's all about is misleading. i do no subscribe to theory that all power amps sound the same simply because low distortion is achieved on a spec sheet. making such a statement involves a great deal of assumptions and generalizations. i know how different amplifier output can be when the spec sheets look the same. i design them professionally. Fletcher and Munson have a great deal to say about unmatched gains, but does that fully explain all differences in sound quality? the answer is no.

 

i think PLX amps are a great product. to this day they are on the short list when i need to buy a power amp. i do not think it is an insult or a slight to assert that they do not sound as good as other amps. it only reflects a different set of design goals and decisions. and what frustrates me is that Bob Lee is quietly condescending in his approach to that. and the worst part is, he knows there's a difference. he used to work for Crest, a company that built its name on sounding better than the other guys. he whistled a different tune in those days.

 

well, this has quickly become an extension of a different pissing match and not the actual topic. now that i've gotten the last word, i move we actually discuss the IP cabinets instead of Bob Lee v. the world (or Jim Bergantino).

 

robb.

 

ps...because i'm juvenile, i still want to know what class your PLX is. i know the answer, and i really think you should know, too. i agree the DPC is a great amp, though, and i don't even have to work at peavey to think that.

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I think my PLX is Class AB with variable rail voltage (therefore called Class H?) and a switchmode power supply.

 

I'd love to know exactly what the DSP is doing to the sound. I suspect there's not only EQ and phase correction going on, but also Fletcher-Munson compensation and high SPL compression and limiting.

 

Alex

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To try and get back on track...

 

I used my Bergie HT112 with an AI Focus SA III amp last night. Except for the buzz from the neon lights (see other thread) it sounded great. If I didn't already have a Bergie, I think I would be tempted to have an amp/cab combination. It suits my desire to have a small and portable rig.

 

To me, the amp/cab are a constant. If you need a stage monitor or stand alone rig, you always use them together. If gear is supplied, or you are running through a good PA/monitor sytem, all you need is your preamp or DI. I think that is something to consider.

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robb, I don't know what you not working at Peavey has to do with anything (at least it wouldn't if you were capable of discussing gear with no partisanship) - and yes - I saw that you weren't there some time ago when you mentioned that. And actually you've repeated it, so it's hardly tough to miss. And just because you say Bob Lee is implying more than he has said doesn't mean anyone has to believe that - and similarly with your bit on PLX audio performance - your word is hardly gospel, and your approach toward discussion makes your word less valuable than it would be if you actually just approached matters in straight-forward fashion. To further answer your scattershot and unconnected points, I'm probably on record for a couple years or more mentioning that QSC calls the PLX Class H.
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CAlex,

 

I would hope F-M compensation is there, and peak limiting and excursion control, because a number of SR systems have used such approaches with their processors to very good effect. We'll see when the hype is less and the features and specs are actually available.

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  • 1 month later...

Ok just for the hell of it Robb is right,(this time).

 

The powered bergie's are just way, way, to expensive. What's the big advantage? The DSP doesn't do anything you couldn't do with any competent eq. Just chart out the speaker's freq. response invert it and dial in the EQ. Been there done that, and the results can be surprising. Not always as good as you might think.

 

Listen with your ears not your eye's.

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I don't know if I want to get involved here, but I'll say this much.

 

I love my Bergie HT112. I love my Acoustic Image Focus SA Series III amp. The cab was about $500 and the amp $900, so I have about $1,400 into it. Maybe the DSP is great, maybe not, but if I could get a powered Bergie for $1,500 I'd be much more tempted.

 

It's a convienece/size/weight thing for me. At the time of purchase (about 2 weeks before the IP was announced) this was the one of the smallest and most powerful rigs I could come up with. For me it would be cool to have the amp right in the cab, but the Focus SA isn't that much to haul around, and I'm not quite ready to pay another $400 - $500 for the convience.

 

I do love the sound of my rig, and it was tempting...

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