SteveC Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 You may have noticed that I have been inquiring about different "magic dust" devices to use with my rig. BBE, Aphex, etc. I'd really like to get a more "smooth jazz, XM71" type of bass tone. You know what I mean? I get a really nice "pop/rock" sound right now so that band is covered. I don't know that I have a really good "smooth jazz" tone for the quartet. Yellowjackets, Al Jarreau, Pat Metheny, Boney James, etc. You all know my gear - Yamaha 5 string with a Bartolini preamp(3-band, 3-way selectable mids)and "J style" pups. Eden 550 head and Bergie HT112 cab. I'm NOT looking to swap out gear, really. I like my bass, I like my head, I like my cab. When we play a club with a dedicated sub I really sound good so I suppose a big old 15" or 18" would be cool. I suppose I could add another cab but I don't really want to add gear unless that's the only option. My amp can certainly handle it. That's why I was looking at something like a BBE to help? Do you have any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 That scooped-mid sound you're looking for? Easy; increase the bass, decrease the middle frequencies, and increase the treble. It is hard to make that tone work in a live context without a big, gigantic PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Daddy from Motown Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Getz is giving you the scoop on the EQ. I think it's a lot to ask of any 1-12 cab at any significent volume level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I agree with Big Ddddy from Motown; in order to be heard with a scooped-mid EQ, you need some power and speakers behind you. Maybe a 6x10" cabinet. http://www.swrsound.com/products/prod_images/swrsound/4410300000_md.jpg An SWR Goliath Sr. might be able to do that job. A scooped-mid EQ can make any speaker go from audible to inaudible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 Originally posted by Big Daddy from Motown: I think it's a lot to ask of any 1-12 cab at any significent volume level. I was afraid of that. Those mids are so important to "cutting through" in a live setting. The 12" works just fine for the rock stuff as I pump the mids pretty well. It sounds great and cuts through just fine. I think my head has plenty of power to push another or an additional cab, but I like my small rig. Maybe the "smooth jazz" thing is one tone I have to give up to stay small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 Originally posted by getz76: I agree with Big Ddddy from Motown; in order to be heard with a scooped-mid EQ, you need some power and speakers behind you. Maybe a 6x10" cabinet. http://www.swrsound.com/products/prod_images/swrsound/4410300000_md.jpg An SWR Goliath Sr. might be able to do that job. A scooped-mid EQ can make any speaker go from audible to inaudible. Any other suggestions other than a 6X10 cab! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 How about a 4x10"? http://www.epifani.com/cabinets/T410.gif It isn't that much heavier than your 1x12". Only 57 lbs. Or the 3x10"? http://www.epifani.com/cabinets/T310.gif Only 47 lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 Am I doomed to buying another cabinet? There's no way to make the 12" work is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 If you scoop the mids, there is no way you are going to be heard with that 1x12" cabinet. Impossible. You are taking all of the efficiency out because the human ear hears 1 kHz a lot better than it hears 40 Hz; combine that with the fact that the cabinet responds better at 1 kHz versus 40 Hz. The only way to counter-act that is to get more speakers (important) and more power (not as important, but still important). Physics is physics. * * exceptions for impedance switching devices in epoxied black boxes with two leads notwithstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57pbass Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Originally posted by SteveC: Am I doomed to buying another cabinet? There's no way to make the 12" work is there? If you're playing shows in your living room you should be set with the 1 x 12 but for the bigger rooms you need to push more air... try a 4 x 10 www.danielprine.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 PS - buy the 3x10" and let me know how you like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 47 lbs. (the 3x10") is only about 8 lbs. heavier than your Bergantino HT112. That's not bad at all. 8 lbs., I mean, that's like putting a jug of water on your cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 How about a Genz Benz Neox 2X12 - like they have at the local store? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Daddy from Motown Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 For some reason 12's always seem to have a very pronounced midrange, more so than 15's or 10's. The frequency charts on the eminence neo 12 look interesting but i haven't heard one yet. I just bought a Avatar neo 410 that worked very well this weekend, I'll have to see how it works on Friday night, we're working one of those bars where the band is just a side show. In other words loud and rude drunks are the main feature. I'll have to see how the Avatar works, in the past I've used the Nemesis 6-10 400 watt combination in that room. Steve i think a second Bergie HT112, would make for a killer rig especially with that Eden 550 head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Capasso Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I don't really understand what tone you are looking for. I also suspect that the places you need that EXACT tone are smaller venues. If you haven't, you can read the article on the Eden site about tone and the 550 head. I found it helpful when I borrowed one, but my problem is that I don't have any kind of intuitive feel for making a parametric deliver a certain tone. If you are like me (and on many fronts I hope you aren't), then you've got a lot of experimenting to do. I think that another HT112 would be a great choice. Those other cabs are fine (not the 6x10), and you might like their sound. Is this trip REALLY necessary? Who is going to notice the difference? Most likely it will be your credit card company... Tom You may have noticed that I have been inquiring about different "magic dust" devices to use with my rig. You've got more important things going on. Every time you think the tone isn't perfect, sprinkle some baby powder ("magic dust") into the front of the grill and think about what's really important. Signed, Dad www.stoneflyrocks.com Acoustic Color Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 The NeoX cabinet is nice, but it is over 60 lbs. The Epifani is a lot lighter, closer to the weight of the Bergantino. It's a much better choice in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 Originally posted by Tom Capasso: If you haven't, you can read the article on the Eden site about tone and the 550 head. I found it helpful when I borrowed one, but my problem is that I don't have any kind of intuitive feel for making a parametric deliver a certain tone. If you are like me (and on many fronts I hope you aren't), then you've got a lot of experimenting to do. I think that another HT112 would be a great choice. Those other cabs are fine (not the 6x10), and you might like their sound. Is this trip REALLY necessary? You've got more important things going on. Every time you think the tone isn't perfect, sprinkle some baby powder ("magic dust") into the front of the grill and think about what's really important. Signed, Dad Tom, you are my voice of reason. That's why I asked about non-expensive options. I don't know that anyone but me, the band, and a few buddies would notice. I admit that at times I'd like to "feel" the bass a little more on those gigs. They are usually the non-PA supported ones. I'll give the Eden site a look, too. Adding an EX112 would probably be cool. It would give me more low end potential. I thought maybe a BBE or something would give the illusion without another cab. And yes, the baby will be here before we know it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 Here's a sample of the Aphex 1402 pedal. http://www.aphex.com/demo1402.htm Thin and wimpy to fat and powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Don't listen to anyone except Dave. You can get the sound you want out of what you have already. It's just a matter of touch and eq. And mostly touch. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 I'll do some EQ experimenting. Maybe try some new strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bear Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Semi-non related, I just picked up the punch factory. Used it on a solo gig and in a death metal gig. It really is studio quality in my opinion. Related, I went to Aphex's site and listened to some of the samples of the Bass Xciter. I'm looking for a pedal that I can get more tone from and make percussive sounds for my solo stuff. I have the BDDI, but I like to use that in my primary tone. So using that isn't an option. The examples of the Bass Xciter sounded pretty nice. Possibly what your looking for. As for cabs that match, man that's a toughie, I wouldn't buy a new large piece of gear to get a tone I want unless it's my primary tone I'm looking to change. Best of luck, and hail Tom''s voice of reason. Mike Bear Artisan-Vocals/Bass Instructor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Capasso Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Steve - as your VOR, I can't in good conscience recommend you buy anything. But if you do buy another Berg, you might want an HT. As Maury said, the tweeter is smooth, and helps you with the mids as well as the highs. For rock gigs, you can always roll the tweeter off on one (or both) cabs for less top end. It's cheaper to spend time looking at different plucking positions and techniques - nice call J. Tom www.stoneflyrocks.com Acoustic Color Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Dunno, Tom. Two HT112's are 78 lbs. combined. Plus, they cost a bit more (combined) than the Epifani 310-UL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 See my string thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Just boost 100 hz and see what happens. I bet it sounds a lot smoother at the back of the room than it does on stage. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloclo Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 so it's a quartet. it's jazz music. it doesn't demand the amount of perceived loudness a rock gig does. going over the specs of the bergantino you should be okay me thinks. then again i never played through a bergantino cab but anyway that's my guess. do what jeremy suggested. take your longest jack-jack cable (you have a preamp so that's okay), during the soundcheck (if it's possible considering the venue/place) go stand where the public is/will be. enrapture yourself with your smooth bass tones. and while you boost 100Hz, try cutting everyting below 40Hz if you can, see what that gives in a live situation. cheers Marvelas Something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 I do have the ability to dial in 100 Hz on my parametric EQ so I'll give that a try. Unfortunately I won't have time until after the weekend as my day job is frantic right now. Thanks for the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I don't know what XM 71 is. But in general, the bass in "smooth jazz" recording is pretty compressed. And if broadcast, the entire recording is going through multiband compression made especially for broadcast. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 I had thought of using more compression as well. In the end, it seems that my cab will always be the limiting factor. It's a 12" but I really like it so I'm keeping it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Compression/limiting will easily give you 3 dB more in average levels with your cab without sounding in the least bit squashed...this is often the hidden secret of bass combo circuitry to make smaller, less powerful combinations seem more capable. And when it comes to mixes - recorded stuff - actually a lot of sonic styles use considerably more than THAT. If you want to sound more like that nothing else will do - no amount of hand technique will reshape the dynamic range and frequency distribution of a single instrument thusly. This is when compression is used as an effect, as PART of the sound, and not just a way to control either dynamic range or uneven technique. In your case, if you really want that sound, it'll also have the added benefit of making your rig sound a bit bigger than it is. And ironically, you bought one of the better compressors for this type of use some time ago. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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