Those b*****ds done it again! (about Behringer's BDI, not political)

[dohhhhh6]

Well, those punks at Behringer did it again.

 

http://www.behringer.com/BDI21/index.cfm?lang=ENG

 

For those who don't look at the link, it's a rip (though cosmetically different) of the Sansamp BDDI... titled Behringer's V-Tone Bass BDI.

 

Positives? According to a TB'er, it sounds really close to its father... at $30.

 

Personally, I've been meaning to get a BDDI used if the price was right. This might give me a chance to get in on the Sansamp love. Though I'd definitely change its housing, I couldn't let something so ugly get close to my rig.

 

Bon Appetite.

 

P.S. This thread is intended to be about the actual pedal, not Behringer's ethics.

 

P.S.S. Here's the TB thread, though it's not too detailed http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=176821

[Mike Bear]

It's like they spyed on us to find out what would be a comforting name. They call it the BDI. Spooky.

[The Geoff]

Interesting how it goes from an RRP of $39.99 in the US (about £21) to £31.00 (about $58.00) in the UK.

 

And the UK is MUCH nearer Germany.

 

Ripoff Britain yet again.

 

Geoff

[Prague]

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

Well, those punks at Behringer did it again.

...it's a rip (though cosmetically different) of the Sansamp BDDI....

 

This might give me a chance to get in on the Sansamp love...

You know it's a ripoff, yet you'll buy it? I don't get it.

[PhilMan99]

Is Behringer in Germany? I'd assumed it was Chinese.

 

Even copying designs (largely eliminating R&D), how could a German company produce products so cheaply? Low-wage ex-Soviet-block labor?

[rumpelstiltskin.]

behringer is headquartered in germany, though i would be surprised if it had any production facilities outside of china.

 

the amount of knowledge, physical resources, and manpower required to develop original products is considerably more than what it takes to buy a product and tell the chinese to reproduce it for you. even being in germany, their overhead is extremely low compared to just about any of their competition.

 

often, even though the components and manufacturing are extremely cheap (not just inexpensive), their low prices are tough to match because other companies just don't have that low overhead. so there's no way to meet their features per dollar ratio. the quality may be better, but most features-per-dollar buyers aren't entirely interested in better sound.

 

robb.

[butcherNburn]

Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress, save up some cash little by little and get the SansAmp. I own a Behringer V-Amp and although it serves it's intended purpose (at home practice with headphones) I wouldn't use it in a serious situation.

[MattC]

Behringer can make products so cleaply because it

a)eliminates R&D

b)uses less-than-top-of-the-line components

c)produces its products with minaturized components (much like computer motherboards)

d)uses external power supplies which cut down on case size and the amount of metal used (smaller case)

e)builds products that are almost impossible, or at least not worth while, to repair

[getz out]

Lady, this is OLD news...

 

http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/5/t/010808.html

[MvW]

Save your pennies for the real thing. IMHO, the imposters never get it right anyway. I just ordered the new 3 channel BDDI yesterday and MAY sell my original if it goes unloved for a while.

[The Fonz]

i just checked out the other behringer thread and thought i'd add my $0.02 (USD).

 

i don't see the big friggin deal, nor do i understand why we are so pissed. are we pissed because we went out and spent 200 bones on a sansamp and come to find out there's a (MUCH) less expensive version out there? we should be happy, musicians (at least this one) don't make a lot of money and go broke trying to scratch together enough to get the meager pieces of gear we need to make it on stage. companies like behringer, olp and others are making products we can afford. they're doing us a favor.

 

i agree with ClarkW on the behringer pedals thread that if they are indeed ripping somebody off and that somebody sues, then they will pay. but are they actually opening up a box and sending the schematics of someone elses product to china for mass production? what's wrong with a little reverse-engineering? i'm positive sansamp didn't come up with the very first and to-date only product of this kind.

 

as far as originality goes i think we all need a bit of introspection here. what are your influences? are you less of an musician because you copped somebodies licks? your favorite band is reverse-engineering the beatles, or black sabbath, or ac/dc right now.

 

lets all lighten up a little here. there's no need to get pissed off. if behringer did something wrong let tech21 sue them. if not let's all be glad we don't have to pay through the nose to get the stuff we need anymore.

[groover]

One thing to keep in mind here...

 

Like Ace Cracker, I'm a poor musician and over the past several years I've gone through several cheap processors (made by Zoom, Digitech and Behringer) that altogether have cost several hundred dollars. I take very good care of all my equipment, cheap or not, but I do use them pretty heavily. They have all started to develope problems and began to fail after roughly a year of heavey use (the Digitech after only a few months!). I may initially have saved a lot of money buying cheap, but when I look back over time, I probably would have saved money by just buying one good quality processor.

 

Also, I bought a SABDDI six years ago, unfortunately I sold it to a good friend of mine around a year ago. It is still working flawlessly even after five years with me and one year of bar gigs with its new owner. It may take 6-7 Behringer's before you reach the price of a new SansAmp, but to me it's worth it to save your money for something solid and reliable.

 

Once I get my tax return, I am buying a programmable SABDDI and a Boss ME-50B. I know the SansAmp will last and I'm banking on Boss' reputation for solid and decent quality.

[getz out]

Ace, I'll disagree.

 

Take note that a company like OLP makes a licensed product. They pay a license fee. It's like paying a songwriter a fee for covering a song on a live album.

 

But what you are talking about is very Vanilla-Ice like; Ice Ice Baby? With your logic, you could say that Ice Ice Baby was just influenced by Under Pressure. I think that's an ethical stretch.

 

Playing fair is what it's about; completely stealing a design (that is, replicating a circuit to be identical) is much different than trying to copy the output of a product. The original SansAmp (still offered as the "Classic") was pretty revolutionary. The same with Line6's original POD. They said, wow, Amp X sounds like ABC and when combined with Cabinet Y, it sounds like EFG. Let's make some filters to get an input source to sound like the end product through that amp and cabinet combination.

 

Could a company like Tech 21 NYC afford to take on a legal battle against a company like Behringer even if they break intellectual property protection? I don't know.

[Fred TBP]

Originally posted by getz76:

Could a company like Tech 21 NYC afford to take on a legal battle against a company like Behringer even if they break intellectual property protection? I don't know.

I'll take this one, Maury.

Tech21 was started by a few of the repair people who worked around 48th street in Manhattan (NY-NY-USA) for dozens of years fixing every piece of pro music/recording gear imagineable. They took the risk of getting office space near the area (no mean feat considering real estate taxes as the area is right in the heart of the NYC theater district) and using their reputation to build a customer base by word-of-mouth and continuing to take on local repair work while getting their original products mass-produced and out into the real world. The Tech21 people are, dare I say it, hard-working Americans in the true entrepenureal spirit of making a dream come true and becoming their own bosses.

 

Now along comes a company like Behringer. I didn't mind as much their ripping off designs from bigger companies like Roland, I started minding when Mackie's name got thrown into the rumor mill, but now I DO mind that they're trying to take a piece of Tech21's hard earned business.

 

I doubt if they could find the money, patience and legal resources to sue Behringer as this could take a couple of years in either US Federal Court or the EU Court in Holland. But I damn well wish they WOULD sue them. Maybe they could contact the Mackie people and find a shortcut in the process.

 

It's the principle of the thing and the level that Behringer's sunk to. Perhaps an American company should manufacture low-cost Warwick basses and sell them in Europe to see how that would go over. Perhaps we can have them made in Korea, shipped to the US for quality control ( yeah, right!) and then ship them to Europe. It's an economic war, we're losing it and it's time we fought back!!!

 

(Cue music: "Glory, Glory Hallelujah" )

[dohhhhh6]

At first I was a bit taken back by Getz's finger towards the OLD thread, but now I understand.

 

Sorry to not clarify, but I intended this thread to be about the actual pedal and its comparison to the original SABDDI and the M-80. This thread isn't supposed to be about Behringer's ethics as it has been discussed beforehand.

 

My apologies for not clarifying in the beginning.

 

So if anyone has some experience with this Sansamp clone, could you chime in? I'm personally thinking about taking one home and having myself and another bassist check it out.

 

Thanks.

[MattC]

It is true that Behringer is not hte only company that works from previous designs. Take the S body guitar or the P-bass; are those companies ripping off Fender? I doubt we'd say yes.

 

The thing is, though, that Mackie doesn't contribute to the knowledge base on its designs. The only innovation it introduces is a way to make the product at a much lower cost. (hint- the cost reflects the absence of R&D). In fact, Behringer seems to market its products as inexpensive replacements to industry standard gear.

 

 

At least in the music industry, there is always going to be a markey for high-quality, innovative and useful products. Every one in a while, one of these innovations will take over the market- take the entire Fender company, for example...

[getz out]

Originally posted by Da LadY In Tha Pink Dress:

This thread isn't supposed to be about Behringer's ethics as it has been discussed beforehand.

That's an oxymoron. EVERY Behringer thread is about their ethics.

 

Sorry, not slight meant by my pointing back to the older thread.

[PanicYou]

eh let the business world fight their own fights. As far as the consumer goes im going to buy what ever works the best at the best price. It may sound cold or cruel but as consumers you gotta do whats best for your wallet.

[Prague]

Econ 101 covers how to sustain and grow your local economy (which includes your own job).

 

Enabling the economy in general does not include rewarding theft and plagarism.

[PanicYou]

yes i know economics is a potential major, actually i was joking but sitting in a forum and complaining how one company rips off another isnt going to change a thing now is it.

 

You tell me, if there are two items one is 300 and the copy is 30 yet they do the same thing which are you going to buy? We all have jobs and work very hard and I'm sure the people who made that little gizmo worked very hard to do so (** See Fred the bass players post**) but its just the sad truth.

 

At least thats my opinion, feel free to voice your own.

[getz out]

Originally posted by PanicYou:

yes i know economics is a potential major, actually i was joking but sitting in a forum and complaining how one company rips off another isnt going to change a thing now is it.

For such a young fellow, that's rather defeatist now, isn't it?

 

I'm guessing you don't have a problem stealing music or software, eh?

[dohhhhh6]

Alright... reverse psychology in practice in 1...2...3...

 

This thread WAS intended to argue about Behringer's ethics...

 

did it work?

[Tom Capasso]

I am sorry Lady, but Getz is correct (gawd - don't make me say that). Every Behringer thread is about their business practices. I'm sure people with product experience will chime in as time goes on (and the product is distributed), but you'll always have this other side. Those who harvest the honey get a few stings.

 

I don't like commenting about this topic, because I don't feel I ever really know the "inside scoop". But PanicYou's comment I can address.

 

Originally posted by PanicYou:

yes i know economics is a potential major, actually i was joking but sitting in a forum and complaining how one company rips off another isnt going to change a thing now is it.

There are people who come to this forum without knowing about Behringer. We help provide that information, and if a few decide not to buy a product because they don't like Behringer's (or any company's) approach, maybe we have helped a bit. I am not saying that no one should buy them, but that we offer a broader viewpoint than you will get when you walk into Guitar Center.

 

I lean away from Behringer, because I suspect that they cross some difficult-to-define line (well - Roland was able to define it). It's not a religious quest with me, but I don't see myself buying from them.

 

Tom

[Bobby LowTones]

PanicYou, I have a big IF for you...

Originally posted by PanicYou:

(snip) ...We all have jobs and work very hard and I'm sure the people who made that little gizmo worked very hard to do so... (snip)

What if the business you are working so hard for gets ripped off

by a Behringer like company? You could loose your job, right?

[butcherNburn]

Simply making a product that fits a need is not a bad thing, even if others are doing it (better or worse).

Saying your product is the same as (insert procduct name here) is a bit shady and suspect but not too bad..

Taking proprietary circuit designs and selling them as your own... Bad...

 

We all know what to expect from Behringer, cheaper knockoff, just like we see in every marketplace.

They may not be top of the line but some may fit the bill. Perhaps in the future they will create first rate products. Just think, you may not have created the first overdrive pedal (for example) that doesn't meen you can't create a damn good one.

 

However, I stand by my comment that if you're jonesing for a SansAmp, save your money and get one, you will never be satisfied with a first-generation knock-off.

[Prague]

It amazes me that some musicians don't realize that actual people (like themselves) work at Tech21. Are they all robots there?

 

To anyone that doesn't care:

 

Please state your company's name and nature of business where you work.

 

We will then list your knock-off competitors and even those who may ripoff your products for a cheaper price.

 

Show your boss and the owner of your company this thread (especially your opinion).

 

In less than 6 months you will likely change your view.

 

If you are a musician, post your music and allow free downloads.

[getz out]

Pillar of salt and all, Prague nailed it.

[butcherNburn]

Originally posted by getz76:

Pillar of salt and all, Prague nailed it.

I agree.

But just for argument's sake, should the SansAmp have an SVT setting?

[getz out]

I have no issue with emulating; if you can find another way to do something (like get a little black box to sound like an SVT), rock on. If you look over the shoulder of the person who figured it out and copy their work without giving them credit (i.e., money), then not so nice.

[musicfiend]

So...............why are we still talkin about this..