Schroeder

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by   :

I am shocked nobody has anything interesting to say about the Schroeder cabs. At the very least they are a new wrinkle on the scene and are sure to be good performers in their respective weight classes. For a bunch of people who always bend over frontwards to expose their GAS, this is pretty pathetic ; }

The ever-growing (currently 742 post long) Schroeder thread over at talkbass.com

 

They seem to be the new flavour (ah, u's...) of the month and judging by all the reviews, with good reason. JS appears to have found a voicing that gives enough impression of deep lows without giving up the efficiency or compactness that creating true deep lows demands. In fact he's worked some magic in getting enough bass in general out of such small boxes (bearing in mind the volume in which the speakers are operating is even smaller than the total cab volume).

 

I believe we still don't really understand the complexities of horn loading - the new compact horn speakers by Bill Fitzmaurice achieve specs which refute all the traditional views on horn design - but regardless of the theoretical understanding, the practical application is proving most bass friendly.

 

The other notable feature of the Schroeder design is a decent tweeter which doesn't sound harsh or is way more efficient than the LF drivers, like so many standard crossed-over-too-low compression tweeters. And finally, because he's got this multi-panel cabinet design, I think he's able to use thinner plywood and still achieve enough panel stiffness.

 

Alex

[g.]

Nice to see someone at LDLd has the bent to understand. I don't think we truly grok complex interactions of horns either. But there is just enough known by science - and practical examples which mesh with the theory - to debunk some claims that are made here and there ; }

 

Cool analysis, C Alex!

[getz out]

But aren't tube watts louder than solid state watts?

 

[Big Red 67]

Yes tubes are !loooouder!

[g.]

Yes tubes are !loooouder!

No - they just seem that way since they are so embraced by guitarists, who themselves tend to uh - make much noise that signifies little ; }

[Big Red 67]

Since the only way to judge is what we "seem" hear, since that is what please's people about music, I'd say you proved my point. I don't remember ever hearing a pleasing tone thru a voltmeter or a SPL meter. I don't care how they measure. Science without Religion is Dead, Religion without Science is Blind. Enjoy your day!!!!!!!!!

[g.]

Since the only way to judge is what we "seem" hear, since that is what please's people about music, I'd say you proved my point.

I'd say you haven't considered that WATTS don't care about tubes or otherwise. They are simply a fixed measurement.

 

I don't remember ever hearing a pleasing tone thru a voltmeter or a SPL meter.

And yet they are in constant use by engineers and technicians to keep themselves and their equipment honest. From design stage, to troubleshooting, to reference work, they are really a big part of making good equipment and good mixes. They are even a great tool in building a better ear, as well as a common reference to not be fooled by ear fatigue.

 

I don't care how they measure. Science without Religion is Dead, Religion without Science is Blind.

Tut tut. Are you saying you are religious about not caring? Or scientific about about it? How did you arrive at that phraseology? Well, actually - how the source of that bit arrived at it; I'm almost certainit came from observations and a certain weighing - measuring of all that seemed to be related.

 

Enjoy your day!!!!!!!!!

Oh, I am - I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ; }

[g.]

From http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007872;p=2#000040 :

 

I'm guessing that you are trying to ask what the difference between a tube amp [power stage] and a solid state design is in terms of loudness, though you say you are not. I guess you realize that the SPL when each are running at full RMS into identical and suitable cabinets is the same. In that sense a 300 watt tube amp is as loud as a 300 watt solid state amp.

 

But at regular loads a tube amp is getting some mild loudness advantages perceptually because overtones are being accentuated slightly by mild saturation. And the loudness may also be at advantage in reality as well, because tube output stages are not linear. They tend to compress.

 

For the solid state amp, these advantages in power and arguably tonality, are easily countered by adding a tube or two or a tube emulation circuit at the preamp stage in front of a solid state amp, using some mild compression, and even using limiting.

 

The tonal advantage (or should I say preference) of solid state for bass players is that it is tighter sounding as one goes lower and lower, especially apparent with 5-strings with low B, but its pretty obvious that the low E string isn't as punchy in attack either, and not as tight sounding. These are generalities, and expensive modern tube desigs have gotten pretty good at overcoming damping/resonance characteristics that are fine for vintage but not so desired for "modern" tones.

[getz out]

Guess I should have used the tool.

 

1 watt = 1 watt.

 

Doesn't matter if it's tube or not.

[g.]

Hah! Who cares? ; }

[Big Red 67]

It's not worth the debate. I have a vision of my world and you yours. They do not agree. I am sure that I will probably not be be seeing you.

[alexclaber]

For the sake of all LDLers in need of new cabs, I'm going to have to bump this. I have never ever seen such unmitigated praise as these cabs are getting from numerous players on talkbass.

 

Seems like Jorg's managed to find the near-perfect voicing for most bassists out there. Well done, that man!

 

Alex

[rumpelstiltskin.]

the bergantino love i have cannot resist that one HT/EX stack owner has chosen his HT/EX stack over several iterations of the schroeder concept.

 

what does this mean? jorg has come up with a very cool idea that is exactly what a lot of guys are looking for, but i can love my HT-112 and still be cool.

 

in case there's any doubt still left about the schroeders, they're not in the same family as acme, accugroove, and the multi-way EA designs. they're a 2-way design like most of what's out there. a clever 2-way design, though.

 

robb.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by robb.:

....bergantino love i have... ...cannot resist... ...i can love my HT-112 and still be cool... ....in case there's any doubt... ...in the same family as... ...robb.

Dammit I wrote a long reply to this and lost it! (Annoyance averted by the amusing power of editing...)

 

Anyway, my point was that I think we've seen bass cabs evolve over the years as follows (this is very approximate and misses out numerous great and important designs (particularly EA because they're a law unto themselves!) but hopefully you get the underlying point!)

 

 
Acoustic 360 -----> Evolutionary dead end!                                                Coloured Tone
                                                                                               V



      ¦-------------------------------------------------> Bergantino NV610                     ¦
      ¦                                                                                        ¦
Ampeg SVT 8x10" --> Hartke 410XL --> SWR Goliath --> Eden XLT --> Schroeder 1210                ¦
                                                     ¦    ¦                                    ¦
                                                     ¦    ¦--> Epifani --> Bergantino HT       ¦
                                                     ¦                                         V
                                                     ¦--> Acme --> Accugroove           Transparent Tone

There are so many great cabs out there it just comes down to personal preferences. However I think Schroeder is closer to more player's personal preference than others (though I'm not one of them and nor is robb.)

 

Alex

[_Sweet Willie_]

Hey Claberonious Funk,

 

Where does Phil Jones Bass fit into your chart?

 

Probably in the middle vertically -- not transparent, but not ol' skool either.

 

Certainly pretty far right in the evolutionary scale. But off of which branch?

 

Peace.

--s-dub

[getz out]

I can sum up the Bergantino experience as user-friendly. It's very hard to have the cabinet(s) sound bad.

 

I still wouldn't give up my Acmes, but there is work involved in getting the right sound out of those cabinets. Acmes are a blank canvas. Bergantinos are color-by-numbers.

[getz out]

That said, I'd be interested in hearing the Schroeder cabinets. I can't imagine needing or wanting one, though. I think I have the best balance I can personally have with the low-end assualt of the Acmes and the portable punch of the Bergantinos.

 

The only cabinet I have a jones for is the Bergantino HT322. I have absolutely no need for it. I just want it. That cabinet is EVIL. There's some serious mojo that Jim Bergantino puts into that box.

[getz out]

Part of the evolution was due the the fact that power amps have become efficient and portable. I have an amp capable of 2,100 watts RMS and it weights 17 lbs. Who needs an efficient cabinet when you have that kind of power? Folded horns? No thank you.

 

However, look at the Ampeg SVT810. By no means is this cabinet the cutting edge of technology. However, it defined a sound, much like the Fender Precision Bass and Fender Jazz Bass. It's the sound that's expected.

 

Realize that whenever you read a review of amplification they always tend to benchmark and state "we were able to get some SVT-esque grit with the gain turned up" or "we achieved the sizzling, SWR-ish highs with the presence boost."

 

Same with basses; "we were able to coax a Jaco-esque Jazz bridge pickup with the flux-capacitor on the preamp engaged and a mean, Duck Dunnish P-bass tone with the tone rolled off."

 

You don't need to be the best as longs as you have numbers behind you.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Dr. Sweet Willie:

Where does Phil Jones Bass fit into your chart?

Well going back pre SVT810, players were using bigger speakers, generally 15"s but also some 12"s. So I'd say there was an evolution from fewer larger speakers to the punchy multiple small speaker sound of the SVT. And from there it split off in two directions, one sticking with that speaker size but reducing the number of speakers and compensating by porting to retain the low end from which our modern 2-, 3- and 4-way designs came, whilst the other continued down the less travelled path of even smaller speakers in even greater numbers.

 

So after the SVT810 came the Henry The 8x8, then the disastrous Ampeg 8x6.5" IIRC, and then the PJB cabs.

 

Regarding the colouration I think this gets pretty damn complicated. Although these smaller speakers have a wider frequency response the sheer number of interacting components causes all sorts of phase cancellations and variations in on and off-axis sound. So they're less coloured in one way but more in another.

 

The only way to create an accurate evolutionary chart would be in n-dimensional space and we'd struggle to read it!

 

Alex

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by getz76:

I can sum up the Bergantino experience as user-friendly. It's very hard to have the cabinet(s) sound bad.

 

I still wouldn't give up my Acmes, but there is work involved in getting the right sound out of those cabinets. Acmes are a blank canvas. Bergantinos are color-by-numbers.

I get the impression that the Schroeders have that benefit - almost DIY Jackson Pollock compared to the Berg colour-by-numbers and the Acme Lucien Freud.

 

Nowadays when I see all this "what cab should I buy?" thread I just don't know how to reply. I know if I'd reached the point when I bought my Acmes in 2004 rather than 1999 I'd have almost definitely bought a pair of EA Wizzys and an iAmp 800. And maybe I'd have had a better sound straight away but I wouldn't have developed my understanding of tone (and even music) to quite the same degree as the Acmes have forced me to and also I wouldn't have been forced to improve my technique so much. Nor would I have developed such a broad tonal palette as the blank canvas cabs allow me to have. I'd be much more your typical bass player, not that that's a bad thing but it's not as honest to who I am.

 

Alex

[coyote]

It's at moments like this that I imagine an all-bass band: lead bass, rhythm bass, bass bass...

 

The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'..."

Originally posted by   :

Yes tubes are !loooouder!

No - they just seem that way since they are so embraced by guitarists, who themselves tend to uh - make much noise that signifies little ; }

[alexclaber]

I think these cabs deserve a bump.

 

Alex