Equipment and Skill

[Re Che]

Hi,

 

Does it mean that if you own high end equipment like American Fenders and Gibsons mean you are really good musician? I mean at my school it seems that the worst players have the best equipment 2 beginner guitar players have Gibson LP standards and 1 more is going to buy Fender American Strat. Most of the people in my class have real good equipment, I believe I have the worst one(sr300dx-i am poor ). However I cant really say thesame for playing. But does it mean I dont have that kind of equipment people will judge me by that when they see me before listening to my music? Thanks

[Nicklab]

Ultimately you're going to get judged by your music. The only people interested in the gear that a musician is playing are other musicians. Is nice gear cool to have? Yeah. But in the long run, slick basses and the flavor of the month amps are only tools. They're tools for trying to express yourself, but more often than not, the message you're trying to convey will prevail over the limitations of an instrument.

[Basshappi]

Does it mean that if you own high end equipment like American Fenders and Gibsons mean you are really good musician?

Absolutely Not!! Great gear is not a substitute for proficiency...ever!

 

Top shelf gear is a wonderful thing and there are some advantages to be gained from using it. However,real musicianship is the result of dedication and focused study.

 

It ain't about the wood, it's all about the woodshed!

[davebrownbass]

We've had a few discussions about the crap we started on. What was your first bass is one such thread, where a lot of folks started bad stuff.

 

Ultimately, however, bad guitars will limit your advancement. When the time is right, you'll step up to a bass that you perceive to be better.

[ian101]

Yes, if you buy high end gear you will get better.

 

That is why I only buy crappy gear. After I buy the gear I take it home and break it. I'm a stickler for self improvment.

 

Rhetorical whuaa?

[jeremy c]

What gear high school players own is meaningless.

 

Most professional players (myself included) began their careers in high school. Often on crummy gear. But people recognized that we could play and we got hired.

 

In a few years you can buy all that nice gear at a great used price from the guys that had their mommies and daddies buy them the good gear.

 

These are the guys that will come up to you at a bar and say, "Oh I used to play bass". We generally answer, "So what".

[...]

Originally posted by ian101:

Yes, if you buy high end gear you will get better.

If you practice, you will get better. Gear has very little to do with it. Don't worry about what other people might think about your gear. Amaze them with your playing, your music, and your abilities.

 

You will find that a lot of people, especially new players, have 'better gear syndrome'. They believe if they have better gear they will in fact become better players and this is not the case.

[g.]

I guess I'm hearing a fair amount of the expected bushwah here. Maybe some good[+] players looking at new rigs and bass - the total instrument - are thinking it will help them improve more yet, but many are trying to SOUND better or be represented in the mix better so that their skills and musicality will be better noticed.

 

And maybe it can also help sometimes to get better rigs and basses. Let's up the honesty quotient here: if it inspires you to have a certain sound and a certain place in the mix and it makes it feel more sensual/accurate/devastating to use that gear, makes you want to practice/record/gig more - well, it's obvious why players are searching for this combination.

 

Not to mention that it distances one from items that have maybe become stale or unsatisfying - or never were that pleasing to start with. I'm glad I started right out with great gear. Every time I play someone else's "ample" gear, I am reminded how fortunate I am to usually take part in a great sonic and aesthetic experience.

[St_Genesius]

Weird confession: new gear makes me a better player -- or rahter it makes me a different player.

 

Not GOOD gear, mind you, just new. A new toy, whether it's an istrument, head, cabinet, pedal, whatever will almost always inspire me to play something I would never have thought about playing the day before. That's one nice thing about working in MI. I get to experiment on new setups everyday.

 

I got over the idea that a new instrument would actually improve my chops when I was 15. Like so many spoiled teenagers, I was convinced that my first instrument was crap simply because it was my first instrument. Nowadays it's one of my favorites, and MUCH more preferred than the "better" instument that replaced it.

[abaguer]

Good gear can be a subjective thing. A lot of people on this board wouldn't consider Fenders and Gibsons high end instruments unless they are vintage. Good gear doesn't really mean much if you can't get a good sound out of it. Ultimately you are responsible for playing in time, tune and with good tone. Good equipment can only help you out a little bit on the tone variable but if someone can't play it shows up no matter what.

[shex]

i play a bc rich beast. im cool.

haha, no point having a fast car if you can't drive. i hate seeing people with really good six strings or other really nice looking basses, who are hopeless. such a waste.

although it's also a pity to see a brilliant bass player jamming away on a terrible bass, where the poor pickups or amp end up ruining the sound, blending all notes into one, clicking, or clunking. but you can usually fix that stuff if you fiddle around enough.

[Nicklab]

Originally posted by greenboy:

I guess I'm hearing a fair amount of the expected bushwah here. Maybe some good[+] players looking at new rigs and bass - the total instrument - are thinking it will help them improve more yet, but many are trying to SOUND better or be represented in the mix better so that their skills and musicality will be better noticed.

 

And maybe it can also help sometimes to get better rigs and basses. Let's up the honesty quotient here: if it inspires you to have a certain sound and a certain place in the mix and it makes it feel more sensual/accurate/devastating to use that gear, makes you want to practice/record/gig more - well, it's obvious why players are searching for this combination.

 

Not to mention that it distances one from items that have maybe become stale or unsatisfying - or never were that pleasing to start with. I'm glad I started right out with great gear. Every time I play someone else's "ample" gear, I am reminded how fortunate I am to usually take part in a great sonic and aesthetic experience.

Well, I have to vehemently disagree with Greenboy here. Okay, let's say someone DOES get great gear from the outset. Some benefactor see's fit to bestow a custom Fodera bass and an Aguilar amp rig upon some budding young bassist. Okay, our youthful subject has gear in hand, now what?

 

This is where talent is going to be the determing factor. Once you've got the good gear, it's put up or shut up time. Once there are no physical limits on a musician with their instrument, then we'll really see who's got something to offer to the audience. That's really what matters, the audience. We can all flap our gums at each other about "Well I have this amp and that bass, and you have that amp and this bass, blah, blah, blah", but it's all meaningless. The point of music is to move an audience, and the audience doesn't give a rat's ass if you're playing a Spector or a Squier. All they care about is that you're playing music they enjoy.

 

And on the flip side of the coin, there have been plenty of musicians who have made strides forward with crappy gear. What about all of those people who have played Silvertone guitars? What about Bo Diddley with his homemade guitar? What about Jack Bruce shining through the completely inadequate eqipment of the 1960's? He was playing through Marshall stacks because there wasn't anything else that was good available at the time. Are we now supposed to discount Jack Bruce because he didn't have good amplification? Please.

[BenLoy]

Experienced players know what they're looking for with gear. Young players whom have just started do not.

 

Young players who keep buying new basses instead of practicing never figure out what they want to sound like, and they think that "this or that new bass/amp/effect" will help them.

 

It certainly doesn't help when they open a guitar magazine and see the guys from Korn in an Ibanez ad quoted as supposedly saying "Tone-Lok pedals open new paths to creativity," and other such nonsense.

 

I owned a very crappy '78 Precision when I started playing (it was definately one of the bad ones). I played it for 3 years, the first year without an amp. When I had a tough time emulating the sound of a player on a record, I kept practicing. I didn't blame the bass.

 

When I finally stepped up to a better instrument, I heard the difference, but my hands already knew how to get a good tone out of the darn thing in the first place, because I struggled with that P-Bass for three years. I also had spent enough time with that P-Bass to learn what aspects of my sound weren't going to be fixed by changing my technique.

 

Learn to play. Good gear will follow once you know what the hell you're looking for.

[jeremy c]

I can honestly say that I've never heard anyone play any better on a better bass or guitar than on a not as good one. A good player can play anything.

 

The better bass may sound better, but only incrementally so. The listener may never hear the difference.

 

I just watched Rush in Rio and Alex Lifeson plays at least 6 different guitars. And as a sophisticated listener I can't hear any difference when he changes guitars.

 

Getting a better instrument may inspire someone to practice more, but it is the practicing more that makes them a better player.

[g.]

Well, DUH.

[getz out]

Originally posted by BenLoy:

Young players who keep buying new basses instead of practicing never figure out what they want to sound like, and they think that "this or that new bass/amp/effect" will help them.

But how does this explain PJR? He's not that young and he seems to have his act together.

 

Okay, seriously though; I have mixed feelings on this. I learned on a budget Samick P-Bass. By no stretch of the matter a great bass. Playable, though. I think it served me well.

 

I got lucky and played with a guitarist that didn't have volume issues. When I started gigging, I was renting decent rigs when necessary, and rehearsal studios usually had something usable.

 

It really depends on what we consider adequate. Usable tone and good playability are very important. So is a decent sounding rig with adequate volume. A lot of younger players I hear really "dig in." I think part of the reason is because they started out playing on high-actioned beginner bass through a 30-watt combo, trying to compete with a guitarist and drummer. After they upgrade and start gigging, they still bully their bass around. Then end up sounding like a hack. It's hard to unlearn such things.

 

It's all about the performance issue, though. I don't think it's a waste if a player with the aforementioned Fodora and Aguilar setup sits back and plays root 8th notes the whole time. Why is that a waste if it fits the bill?

 

Again, my newer, more expensive basses and my newer more expensive rig help me to be a more comfortable player. I agree with greenboy here; this doesn't give me more ability, but the comfort factor is important. Mojo. I mentioned this to our collegue Conrad in his thread requesting suggestions for a good recording bass; do not dismiss playability. If anything, it is even MORE important for a novice.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by greenboy:

I'm glad I started right out with great gear. Every time I play someone else's "ample" gear, I am reminded how fortunate I am to usually take part in a great sonic and aesthetic experience.

But also, GB, you were coming to the bass with a ton of musical experience and knowledge about SR as well. In that case, I think you were probably able to make better educated decisions about gear, even as a bass newbie, than, let's say, a newbie to being a musician. However, I realize that your comment is about you and not a generalization. ; }

 

I agree with this concept: practice makes you better. I also believe that better practice makes you even better -- that is, not just noodling around for an hour a day. Lessons from a quality teacher combined with practice will accelerate your progress even more. Combine the lessons and practice with opportunities to play with other musicians and you're on your way to bass nirvana! (Then throw in some careful listening to what other musicians do, live and on recordings, and you can get even better!)

 

Gear is a tool. In some cases gear is a status symbol -- expensive, highly regarded gear will at least initially confer some ascribed status to the player. Play that gear poorly and the ascribed status will disappear. Play inexpensive, not-so-good gear really well and status will emerge -- achieved status. There you go, an example of your Sociology 101 concept for today: ascribed status vs. achieved status.

 

Peace.

--sweet'n'low

[g.]

Nicklab,

 

I was hard pressed to see where you vehemently disagreed with me. It seemed like we were talking about two almost unconnected subjects. I talked about what the player (me) hears (and feels!), you talked about an audience - as if I always had an audience when I practice ; }

 

all,

 

At this point I don't care whether someone grinds an, er, axe of moral indignation while owning many basses more than I (that the stoooooopid audience members can't hear the difference between anyway), or has a number of rigs. I just have a couple of moderately priced basses (one has been a backup and for tuning experiments) and one big rig and another cab to substitute to use for a small rig.

 

And after playing a lot of other basses and rigs, I am glad I don't have cause to look to them for partial motivation or inspiration or comfort. I know what I want it to sound like when I use my hands thisly or thusly, and I know that I want that tone to get over. And for some reason people do actually commment on the tone, so maybe they are not so stooooooopid after all.

 

I really didn't spend much at all compared to some here, so surely I don't have issues with status symbols that don't "make me any better". I just want to be practicing or playing on something that I have a great relationship with, and I seem to have achieved that relatively painlessly.

 

{ ; Now the rest of you with multiples can tell the guy with only $500 into a rig and a bass that you don't need all your $2000+ basses and extra cool rigs, and you are going to take them to the landfill because they really don't contribute to what the audience hears, or the quality and individuality of your experience ; }

[SteveC]

I won't comment on equipment and skill - I think it's all been said well by others.

 

I will say that I have gone from one extreme to the other over the last few years. I have spent $2,500 on basses, and $350. I have put together "project basses" for myself. I do it mostly because I like to try new things and experiment.

 

I do this for me. I know gear won't make me play better. Some may allow me to play differently, some will allow me to have a different sound, but me playing is me playing no matter what instrument I have or what rig I go through.

 

I have settled down over the last couple months. I have 4 basses that do everything I need. My main bass is my Yamaha that cost me $350. For jazz, it's a Carvin 6 fretless that cost me $1,400. I have two other 4's that I built - a jazz and a precesion. My rig is small, my DI for when I need it is excellent.

 

I'm trying to concentrate on practicing and performing with what I have and paying down some debt that has built up over my experimentation.

[g.]

If you are in school, you play what you can get your hands on right? Doesn't have much to do with who in school is better or worse, not really. Later on, you know that you'd like to play something that doesn't arm wrestle you so much, and can speak without "farttone".

 

Of course a life of G.A.S. will follow, to make up for all those bad childhood experiences ; }

[The Bear Jew]

WICH BAS IS MORE GUD A WUD ONE OR A BLACK ONE? I HAVE A RED ONE BUT I WANNA BLACK 1.

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by CMDN:

WICH BAS IS MORE GUD A WUD ONE OR A BLACK ONE? I HAVE A RED ONE BUT I WANNA BLACK 1.

Definitely WUD. But BLACK is nice too. Thanks for asking.

[Nicklab]

I personally don't seem to recall anyone saying that the audience is stupid. On the contrary, they're pretty smart. However, to think that they're going to like one band better than another because one group's bass player has a Fodera and the other band's bassist has a Fender is ludicrous. I mean, sometimes we as bassists really need to take a step back from things and realize just how ridiculous some of our trains of thought can be.

 

Audiences are going to be into a bass player who can make them shake their money makers more than someone who's got hotter gear. And as for the gear, if you can get a workable tone and you're on a limited budget, go for it! There's nothing stopping the ideas from coming out of your head or your heart. As you're able to get gear that better suits your tastes, hands and budget, then go for that, too.

 

In the meantime, there are lots of of people who have been able to play well with subpar equipment. They've been able to get usable tones from instruments that are limited in their capabilities, but it doesn't universally mean that the musicians using said equipment are limited in their vision.

[g.]

Shuddup Willie. I'm practicing Fwight Of De Bumbowbee on my 1/2" action Pudmonger and I can't hear if my 15-watt guitar amp is blowing up another speaker. My brother would really be pissed if I took another woofer out of his Pinto.

[davebrownbass]

Did I start this? Me?

 

Notice how my carefully and expertly worded post reads:

 

Ultimately, however, bad guitars will limit your advancement. When the time is right, you'll step up to a bass that you perceive to be better

Some folks seem to be trying to make the point that "good gear makes you better." I believe that to be doubtful... I guess if you were driving a great Formula One car, you'd either "get good" or die.

 

This is something different that saying "bad gear might keep you bad."

 

It's true that I can take a bass off the rack, regardless of pedigree and make it sound like me. Heck, I'm even coaxing great tunes outta this tiny fretless Ashbory...coupla days ago began working up "Spain" on it...it can be done, even in the second octave.

 

However, I've grabbed basses with 3/8" neck relief, strings 3/4" off the fingerboard, electronics buzzing and whistling and couldn't play them. The bad bass made me a worse player.

 

I've even grabbed really nice basses that had radically different shapes, P/U configs, narrow or broad spacing or a dozen other differences from what I practice on, and really struggled on them as well...

 

Bad basses can keep you bad. Practice makes you good. Talent and desire define how quick you get there, and what your top level will be.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Nicklab:

...if you can get a workable tone and you're on a limited budget, go for it! There's nothing stopping the ideas from coming out of your head or your heart.

Absolutely. Stop worrying about the tone and just get on with it, it's not like anyone can tell once you've got a drummer and guitarist making a racket. However...

 

Originally posted by Nicklab:

...able to get usable tones from instruments that are limited in their capabilities...

Sometimes you want different or more varied tones than a certain setup can provide (be it cheap or expensive). Give me any bass (as long as it plays in tune) and any amp (as long as it's loud enough) and it won't stop me laying down a great groove but it may prohibit certain approaches. Does that make sense?

 

With my one fretted bass and one fretless bass, a multitude of pedals and my loud transparent rig, everything my hands, onboard EQ and effects do comes through the rig just as I intend. Whether I make the right musical choices is a different matter...

 

Alex

[The Bear Jew]

I have a good friend who plays guitar in a well-known, internationally touring band. He has endorsements with Mesa-Boogie, Peavey and a bunch of other companies. He was offered an endorsement from Gibson as well.. but you know what guitar he tours with and plays all over the world? A shitty, $300 Samick SG copy. He loves it, and he makes it sound amazing. It's his favorite guitar - his No. 1 stage and recording instrument. And it's a stock guitar almost any high school kid could afford.

 

So... to answer the original question:

It's nice to have expensive, fancy gear, but having it doesn't make anyone a better player.

 

Better playing makes better players.

 

How's that for some Zen shit?

[g.]

Some folks seem to be trying to make the point that "good gear makes you better."

I guess I missed those posts. Maybe it's my reading skill...

[_Sweet Willie_]

Originally posted by davebrownbass:

Did I start this? Me?

 

DBB, you did not start this. The opening post of the thread has to do with a question about the quality of gear and its (non-)relationship to the skill of a player. You're part of the flow -- the way these threads go, ya' know?

 

By the way, I'll put in my plug for lessons w/ DBB as a sure-fire way to get better...as long as you practice, dammit! (Bring your Hondo, Rogue, Alembic, Fender, Fodera, Samick, Ibanez, Peavey, frankenbass, Nordstrand, Sadowsky, Lull, kit bass, Carvin, Warmoth special, Seismic, Juzek, Kay, NS EUB, Hoyt, Bee, Wishbass, or washtub with you!)

 

Peace.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by CMDN:

I have a good friend who plays guitar in a well-known, internationally touring band. He has endorsements with Mesa-Boogie, Peavey and a bunch of other companies. He was offered an endorsement from Gibson as well.. but you know what guitar he tours with and plays all over the world? A shitty, $300 Samick SG copy. He loves it, and he makes it sound amazing. It's his favorite guitar - his No. 1 stage and recording instrument. And it's a stock guitar almost any high school kid could afford.

 

So... to answer the original question:

It's nice to have expensive, fancy gear, but having it doesn't make anyone a better player.

 

Better playing makes better players.

 

How's that for some Zen shit?

I used to have an cheap Ibanez like that. It was a total fluke- for some unknown reason, that one was a real player- really wanted to make music. If I had taken any of the others off the same rack, I would have been stuck with a crap instrument.

 

Better makes are more consistent- still there will be individual standout instruments.

 

Your friend got lucky, and has the good sense to know a good thing in hand and go with it.