davebrownbass Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Have a new student at the college, pretty much beginner, but talented. He is, (as virtually all my college students) in a band. Often these are power-metal-alternative-wham-on-the-E-String bands. He's learned Root-Five and 1-3-5 bass lines. Understands Major and Minor chords. Has an old Soundgear. So last night, he tells me his band, an "used to tour nationally" band, really likes his feel, and they want him to upgrade his gear. So, him Mom is making a loan for $4500 so he can buy an Ampeg SVT, the 4x10 and 1x15 cabs and a EB Musicman Bass. I told him there's no way I, as a working bass player, would ever spend that much for gear just to get in a band. If I were a minimum wage worker, I would be even less inclined. He doesn't have a contract, isn't making any money. All the money the band gets in local gigs goes into recording and pressing CD's. He could get a bundle of great gear for half that price...maybe a Eden Metro and the Music Man. He could get that stuff stolen (they leave their gear in a rehearsal area they rent.) He could be left high and dry if the band dumps him, with a bundle of great gear he can't use in the next band. So, is he dumb, or smart like a fox? "Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread. Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Sweet Willie_ Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 While there is something to be said for scoring "the last rig you'll ever need," he does seem to be a bit presumptuous at trying to score all this stuff right off the bat. Dumb? I wouldn't say that without knowing things like how much pressure his bandmates are putting on him and maybe some other details. That said, what venues does this band intend to play? That is, does he really need a 4x10 and a 1x15? How much power does he really need for the foreseeable future? I would hope that a venue large enough to require a 4x10 and 1x15 would also have a reasonably sized PA and therefore he very possibly wouldn't need a 4x10 and 1x15, but maybe a single cab and a decent DI (again, you'd hope the venue would have decent DIs as well). (Although a legitimate argument can be made for the monster tone of type X that one might want from such a large rig...it's just not my cup of tea.) Is he dumb? I think he is lacking in detailed information and an understanding of some of the real challenges that face gigging musicians -- including stuff like you have already pointed out, DBB (having gear stolen from the rehearsal space, getting dropped from the band suddenly like a bad penny, etc.). Is he "smart like a fox"? No. $4500? He could spend half that much and get some excellent used gear, or a smaller rig that would certainly be loud enough. Then he's not left quite so high and dry if something goes awry. Peace. spreadluv Fanboy? Why, yes! Nordstrand Pickups and Guitars. Messiaen knew how to parlay the funk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by davebrownbass: So, him Mom is making a loan for $4500 so he can buy an Ampeg SVT, the 4x10 and 1x15 cabs and a EB Musicman Bass. He's a beginner so does he really know what he wants to sound like? (maybe he just needs to change his strings! ) Even if he weren't a beginner, $4500 is an awful lot to spend on a rig unless you're an obsessive audiophile with a band full of golden-eared individuals that demand a rig that's flat to below 30Hz. If he likes Stingrays then a secondhand Musicman would be a good buy and will last him a lifetime (and if he changes his mind he can sell it without much loss). SVTs sound great but if he has to move it on his own he'll get sick of it quickly, and the Ampeg 4x10" and 1x15" cabs are generally overpriced. If I were in his position I'd try a bunch of secondhand Stingrays and buy the best one, track down some secondhand SWR, Eden or even Hartke cabs or some new Avatar cabs, and look out for a secondhard rackmount preamp like an SWR Grand Prix or Ampeg SVP and pick up a Mackie, Carvin or QSC RMX power amp. Total cost, about $2500. But if he doesn't really know what he wants, even that's too much. Don't let him spend all that (loaned) money on new gear whatever you do! Alex Barefaced Ltd - ultra lightweight, high ouput, toneful bass cabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basshappi Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I have to second Sweet Willie on this one. Great gear does not a musician make. He could make vast improvements with less than half that much money. I think that his "bandmates" may be leading him on. Sad, but I've seen a lot of that kind of thing. Hope you can talk some sense into him Dave,but it may be an uphill battle. Keep us informed. Nothing is as it seems but everything is exactly what it is - B. Banzai Life is what happens while you are busy playing in bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickT Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Why do they want him to upgrade his gear? Is his tone bad? Does his gear break down all the time? Is he not load enough? Or do they think that it doesn't look cool for their bass player to play an old Ibanez Soundgear? If it's a volume thing, how much bigger does he need to get? If it's a tone thing, try changing stuff bit by bit first. If it's a reliability thing then maybe a visit to a good luthier or tech is all the he needs. When are they looking to start touring again? ("used to tour nationally" I assume they don't at the moment) How critical is it that he changes his gear? How big are the rooms they are going to play? Has he picked the new gear or did someone else? I don't like the sound of it. (Loans can be expensive, especially if you're having to pay loads of money to go to college.) Free your mind and your ass will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gord -B Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Well as a relative beginner (7 years) compared to everyone else here I think the second-hand musicman market is a good bet. I got a 3 band eq, maple neck Musicman for £800 with insurance and hard-case at Academy of sound in Manchester. This may sound a lot to you American folks but thats a good deal over here. Unfortunately its purple, but i've grown to love it. Also in the U.K never forget the student charm! The price tag on this was £1200 but i arrived there with the hard earned CASH in my hand and got £400 knocked off. Derek Smalls: It's like fire and ice, basically. I feel my role in the band is to be somewhere in the middle of that, kind of like lukewarm water. http://www.myspace.com/gordonbache Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnb Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Sweet Willie sez: That said, what venues does this band intend to play? That is, does he really need a 4x10 and a 1x15? How much power does he really need for the foreseeable future? I would hope that a venue large enough to require a 4x10 and 1x15 would also have a reasonably sized PA and therefore he very possibly wouldn't need a 4x10 and 1x15, but maybe a single cab and a decent DI Dave, I don't see how this guy is being smart. The band in question is a "use to be" band. I bet they are "on their way back to the top" with "lables just climbing all over each other to sign them". What kind of gear is he using now? What happened to their old bass player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I buy "the last rig I'll ever need" every 4-6 months. For a while I was buying "for the band" and I went through a sh*t load of gear and money. First it was low stage volume, nice SWR Super Redhead combo. Then we added stuff and I needed more stage volume to compete. SWR 750 with a 6X10 cab. Then we went In-Ear monitors. Very nice. I went to a DI only set-up with a Demeter for a preamp - no stage amp. A few guys missed the "rumble" and we didn't use a PA for everything for a while, so back to a 4X10 and power amp with SWR Grand Prix. Now we are back to using a PA for all gigs, everything mixed (but not necessarily run through the FOH) so we get a good In-Ear mix every time. I am now looking at going back to a combo for a littel "rumble" on stage and to use for my jazz quartet gigs when we don't have a PA but don't need high volume. I am now buying gear for ME and what I need. If the guys want rumble, they can crank up the PA subs. Our PA is a 3 way system with 4 - 18" subs. That should be plenty. My SWR WM10 is my most used amp lately. I am playing in a musical at the university this week - Little Shop of Horrors - and am using my WM10 with the volume at 2. Why do I have a rig with a 1,000 watt power amp? The only reason I am looking for another slightly larger amp is for those stand alone gigs where the WM10 isn't quite enough for the low B string on my fretless 6. I used to be about big gear, but as I get older, I find that I can get "my sound" out of many different rigs. It's the player as much as any other variable that makes for the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by Gord -B: I got a 3 band eq, maple neck Musicman for £800 with insurance and hard-case at Academy of sound in Manchester. This may sound a lot to you American folks but thats a good deal over here. Unfortunately its purple, but i've grown to love it.That is a good deal for the UK. (GBP=USD for most gear buys, even though GBP=1.69USD in reality - great for UK importers, I wonder if we'll see prices drop here?) What's wrong with purple? I like purple! Alex Barefaced Ltd - ultra lightweight, high ouput, toneful bass cabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 It's funny - I've seen posts in this Forum and others (esp. Keyboard Corner) where folks are admonishing people who don't start out on 'pro' gear. I even saw a post once that said something like "beginners ought spend even MORE money, since perfect sound and perfect playability will make them more likely to stick with it". Now here's a guy who wants to start out on 'pro' gear, and getting skewered for it! No point being made; I just find it all amusing. Originally posted by Sweet Willie: While there is something to be said for scoring "the last rig you'll ever need," he does seem to be a bit presumptuous at trying to score all this stuff right off the bat. Peace. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebrownbass Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 He told me that he was told he could just buy "A little box" and get the sound he wanted. I'm thinking someone told him to get a Pod and a DI. He's practicing with a Peavey pawn shop amp and this old Ibanez that had never been set up. I had him take it to my buddy's shop, but the neck was too far gone to be completely straightened. A LOT of this is the rest of the band (all 5 years older than him) in a compare-penis contest. They all got stacks and stacks. I told him he didn't need to get all that gear. A nice combo with a good DI would be great. I advised him a nice SWR Workingman 15 would handle gigs small, and if they played loud, use the PA. Anyway, he went to GC and of course, the guys there said he needed all that gear. So he's ordered it! I'm still talking to him; he has a lesson on Wednesday night. "Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread. Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 If it is not too late please advise him not to go into that much debt especially if the band he is in just wants meaner looking gear. You could also tell him and your other students about this forum and it may help them in the future if you have not already done so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebrownbass Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by coyote: Now here's a guy who wants to start out on 'pro' gear, and getting skewered for it! No point being made; I just find it all amusing. Well, I'm all for "pro" gear when it comes to the instrument. I advised him to get the Musicman, if he liked it. It's this big amp stuff that worries me. "Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread. Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Smart? No way. At best, potentially lucky--maybe they'll get signed & he'll make millions. But luck ain't smarts. Sounds like he definitely needs a better bass, & probably a better amp. So he should buy that if he can, esp. if he's AT ALL interested in gigging. But taking out a $4,500 loan while in college (when other loans are often being taken out as well)? Not advisable. Not to mention, there's something comical about a guy who knows four notes carrying around a Tony Levin rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 DBB, I agree, you cannot go wrong with a good instrument. Amplification comes and goes. All is not lost, but he did just spend a bunch of cash. I hope his mother is cashed up. He would have been better served buying a used EB/MM and spending less on amplification (I like the SWR Super Redhead idea for a loud/solid gigging combo). However, what's done is done. In six months, someone will get a good deal on a slightly used Ampeg stack at GC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Sweet Willie_ Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by getz76: He would have been better served buying a used EB/MM and spending less on amplification (I like the SWR Super Redhead idea for a loud/solid gigging combo). However, what's done is done. In six months, someone will get a good deal on a slightly used Ampeg stack at GC. Hey, for $2000 he can have my Super Redhead -- I'll even pay for shipping! As far as "beginner" gear and "pro" gear, I think both are important. The muddiness, IMO, comes when we talk about "intermediate" gear -- as ambiguous as that may be. The stuff that does the job, but makes you constantly second guess yourself about whether you should've waited a couple more months and saved another $200 to get something just a bit better or more "professional." It almost seems like we have a beginner in a situation that calls for more professional gear, but the match between his playing experience and the situation may really be that ambiguous "intermediate" gear. All in all, this seems like a mess! spreadluv Fanboy? Why, yes! Nordstrand Pickups and Guitars. Messiaen knew how to parlay the funk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fear of Napalm Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I payed about half the price of that for almost the same gear excpet i have an 8x10. Anyone who spends $4500 on gear who needs to take a loan out is just crazy in my opinon. Get it used or shop around for the best price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Smart like a fox? You bet! He got his mom to buy the gear for him. Good luck on paying her back for the loan. But that's what parents are for, I guess. I'm sitting here at a day job because my son wanted to go to an Ivy League school. Now that he has a better job than I do, I expect him to support me in my old age. As for the band, if the other guys have stacks, he's not going to be heard without his own stack. The new bass sounds like it was a necessity. And will the band ever make any money? I doubt it. The $5000 grand might have been better invested on the Las Vegas slots....I think the odds are better there then in the music business. But I wish him luck. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fear of Napalm Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by jeremyc: [QB]Smart like a fox? You bet! He got his mom to buy the gear for him. Good luck on paying her back for the loan. But I QB]Yeah good point i was going to mention that as well. Must be nice to have mommy buy your gear for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcr Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Originally posted by getz76: However, what's done is done. In six months, someone will get a good deal on a slightly used Ampeg stack at GC.I laughed out loud at that one! Just the sort of mean-spirited, sarcastic humor that always tickles me. Jeremy, I would just like to take this opportunity, in light of your post above, to say that I really like the way you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetgtree Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 ohh... 4500... just right for me. Now why can't my parents do that?! Ha! No, I am glad things haven't been handed to me. I have to work and pay for all my own gear like most everyone else. My parents think it's funny when I ask them for things! I would probably just pass out on the floor if my mom said to me, "I'm going to loan you 4500 to buy all your bass gear." (<--- that's when I pass out) www.geocities.com/nk_bass/enter.html Still working on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61Pbass Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 $4500 does seem like quite a wad for a beginner to be spending on gear with no return on the investment in sight. Used would have been a much better route, IMHO. That said, when I was starting, my parents anted up $1600 (in 1973 dollars) for a brand new Fender bass and amp....the difference is, I was playing in their band 2-3 nights a week for good money and payed it off in 2 1/2 months. They and I knew it was an investment in my future vocation, not just a hobby. Hopefully his mother has $$ to burn and/or he is extremely serious about pursuing a career in music. P.S. DBB, check your Personal Messages!!!! Later.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfmonkey Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Not dumb, maybe just naive (sp?). Spending $4500 on gear for a virtual beginner is just ludicrous. No way would I encourage him to swing that deal, even if his parents are footing the bill. What kind of starry eyed "used to tour nationally band" would take on a beginning caliber player and then demand he make a sizable investment in their band? What does that say about the character of his bandmates? That just sounds fishy to me. I think you're student is going to be left holding an expensive bag. I have no homepage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Capasso Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 It sounds like he needed a new bass. While it's cheaper to go used, buying new isn't so bad. He can use that bass in whatever gig he plays for the rest of his life (unless he's a PJR type of guy). I agree that the amp stuff is excessive. It's very tough when your older buddies in a band have stacks and talk big about the future. There's not much you can say to that. You could ask all of the questions that we (who are more seasoned) would ask, and try to get him to see the unreality of the answers (DBB: "When is you first gig?" KID: "They say we're going to play such-and-such as soon as the manager gets a call back from the booking agent" - here's trouble for ya). And gee - the salesguy at GC thinks he needs to spend the cash? Wow.... DBB - I know that you take your student's welfare seriously. It's hard to watch kids (and the mom with the cash) go through this. I guess it's part of the job when you teach.... Tell him you posted about it, and that we all wish him a good future and the ability to see reality just a bit more... Tom www.stoneflyrocks.com Acoustic Color Be practical as well as generous in your ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars and keep your feet on the ground. - Theodore Roosevelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc taz Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 This is definitely DUMB, any way you put it. Why $4500? Even with my entire collection of stuff for bass that I have, I've spent about $3000 less than this guy. If you added the 2x10 w/horn cab and 100 watt amp that I'd need to run my combo biamped, that would be about $2500-$2600 less. sevenstring.org profile my flickr page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceman Irwin Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I loaned one of my basses in college... I have taken that risk but I was at a point that i learned what i needed and that I've studied more about sounding good. 4,500? Damn. I had a $400 loan that i paid for almost a year while in school. It's hard to earn money for gear and schooling at the same time. DBB...tell him to take risks when he has his feet planted. Let him work his college degree and then he can jump towards those chances. Peace... If Jaco's bass sound farts, please forgive me for doing it always! ONCE A LEVITE, ALWAYS A LEVITE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebrownbass Posted October 30, 2003 Author Share Posted October 30, 2003 Well, I had my arguments all prepared. I had a couple of Mail Order catalogs that had come in the mail. I was ready to practice castigation on this guy. But he didn't show for his Wednesday's lesson. So, I'll guess that GC WILL be getting some nice used gear in 6 months. "Let's raise the level of this conversation" -- Jeremy Cohen, in the Picasso Thread. Still spendin' that political capital far faster than I can earn it...stretched way out on a limb here and looking for a better interest rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Originally posted by davebrownbass: So, I'll guess that GC WILL be getting some nice used gear in 6 months.Sir, there was no lack of effort on your part. That said, can you send me a PM with the location of the GC so I can time my visit to Texas appropriately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hags2k Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 *Sigh...* I kind of wish that my folks could be that supportive monetarily. My family isn't exactly rolling in it (by any stretch of the imagination). The biggest contribution they've made in that way is they gave me a little money for my brithday that covered a pair of nice headphones to go along with my amp (and I love them!). They've even admonished me on occasion because they think I've spent too much money on my gear and it's nowhere NEAR that much (and 99% good used deals...I practically never buy new). However, they are glad I've finally taken up something and stuck with it. Competing with the band and their equipment...ouch, yeah I knew that pain for a bit. Then I got a 4x10 rig, and they tell me to turn it down occasionally. After we played through a good PA for the first time, though, they started to see the light. My lead singer/guitarist never wanted to play through anything else after that, actually... That pressure early on, though, from "established" players and even those guys at the music store can be incredibly intense when you don't know much and it seems that these guys are the experts. I'm really curious to hear what he has to say when you see him next, Dave. This is a really interesting story. unkownroadband.com - step into the unkown :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Sweet Willie_ Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Yeah, my 'rents aren't dropping dough on me either -- especially now that I'm out of the house, married, two kids... However, my Carvin LB-70 was a collaborative birthday gift from a variety of family members. Now a Carvin 4-string is no where near as expensive as $4500 (no matter how many damn options you order!), but my wife got my parents, sister, and in-laws to all pitch in some cash, and covertly ordered me a bass by swiping one of my "marked up" Carvin catalogs. Now, I can't give her full credit for the idea of getting me a bass, since I'd been dropping hints, but the savvy to make it work financially by turning it into a group gift -- that's all her work. DBB, if you hear from this fellah again, I definitely wanna know what happened. If he doesn't show up again, can I have his lesson slot? spreadluv Fanboy? Why, yes! Nordstrand Pickups and Guitars. Messiaen knew how to parlay the funk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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