Why the big rig?

[getz out]

I have noticed recently, from wedding bands to original bands playing small Greenwich Village clubs; BIG F'ING RIGS! I mean, a 4x10" on top of a 18" sub with a bi-amp head. This is at venues with bass going through the mains.

 

I'm usually willing to play whatever is backlined at the gig. However, if I have to bring my own rig, I've never need more than one or both of my 2x10" cabinets when I'm going through the mains.

 

Doesn't this start a death spiral? Guitarist turns up; drummer hits harder, singer screams, bassist turns up, repeat.

 

Is this really necessary? It's not like freaking arena rock... someone get Peter Frampton on stage, damnit! Where's that talk box? I need more hairspray.

 

Crap, the band playing the wedding I was at last night was GREAT, but too loud. The room was part to fault, but these guys also cranked it. Their PA was a nice EV setup, with subwoofer, 4 mains, and monitors. The bass player and guitarist both had full stack rigs. (bass player has some cash; a nice Fodora and Epifani/Aguilar rig).

[462]

I know exactly how you feel man. Your post reminded me of something one of our guitarists said a few weeks ago when we were setting up a show. Something along the lines of:

 

"Let's get the big PA, we sound way better loud."

 

Needless to say we sounded no better than we normally do, our ears just hurt after.

[PETE_COMBS]

I have noticed that playing through a larger system has greater sound more cruch,and its louder if yopu want it to be.

[462]

The smaller PA would have been fine., I don't think there's much point in using two dual 15' mains for a <150 crowd.

[The Fonz]

wow, i would kill for an epifani/aguilar rig...

 

the reason for a big rig? better, more consistant tone. it takes a lot of power to turn normal, everyday breathin air into hot, drippy, funky bootyshakin air. to be audible, you're going to have to move more air than your guitar player.

 

plus you need headroom. a guitar player can crank his 100w amp all the way up and all that overdrive and peaking and distortion sounds good. then add to that the fact that al that distortion clogs up more audible bandwith making it even harder for you to cut through. then there's all the effects he layers onto his stuff eating up even more bandwith. so now you need to be pushing about 150w just to be audible. now why not just get a 150w or 200w amp? because if you pushed it as hard as your guitar player pushed his then you'd sound like doody.

 

example: i'm in a band with two guitar players who play through 80w amps. i have 500w through a 1x12 but would prefer to be running it through a 4X12 and a 2x15. if you can get away with a smaller rig, god bless ya. hauling all that crap around is terrible for my back. not to mention how my hands feel after i got it all into the club.

[SteveC]

I used to haul around a 6X10 with a 750 head. We were a loud band. We had 7 wedges with 6 mixes on stage. We almost had more power and speakers on stage than for our FOH.

 

Then our band made an effort to reduce stage volume and allow the FOH to have a better mix and more control. I don't even use an amp and cab any more when we set up our full system. I plug in DI and use my In Ear monitors. I can hear everything and not go deaf. We do have a very nice PA and I can get my bass to sound good through it.

 

I do have a 350/4X10 to use when we play smaller venues where we don't use our full PA and just mic the vocals. Works fine.

[tnb]

The only time I consider bringing both 2x10 cabinets out is when I am playing outside without a subwoofer for the PA.

 

When the PA is really good, I just bring my basses.

[jeremy c]

If you are playing in a large club without a good PA, you need to fill the room with sound with your bass rig.

 

In many self-contained bands (to me that means that their is no house PA) the PA system is for the vocals only.

 

But I don't understand the big rigs either.

 

The band I play many weddings with has a 200 watt PA, used for vocals only. I use one 2X10 cabinet. The guitarist has a guitar amp with one 12 in it. The keyboard player has something similar. The drummer is plays pretty lightly, sometimes with rods instead of sticks. And we still get people at weddings complaining about the volume.

[getz out]

Originally posted by Bastid E:

to be audible, you're going to have to move more air than your guitar player.

 

That's exactly the problem. "I have to be louder than the guitarist." Which means the drummer turns into "Animal" from Seasame Street, and the vocals have to scream.

 

If the reason you have to be "louder" is because some a-hole guitarist insists that a 100 watt tube head is necessary for "his tone," fire the guitarist and find a new one; they're a dime a dozen anyway. You can't throw a rock without hitting a guitarist.

 

Maury

[jpjfreak]

amen! a loud stack is a guitar players way of making up for lps(little p*nis syndrome.) however, in my case its not the guitar player its the drummer. he feels that his kit should be mic'd no matter what the venue size. his problem is that he thinks hes bonham but hes more like henley, and hes too friggin loud. all i play through is a peavey 4x10 cab and a peavey nitrobass head(to poor for ampeg) but that still plenty enough to blow away everybody on stage if need be. I dont understand the need for bigger and bigger rigs, bass players dont have lps, so why do we feel the need to get bigger and bigger.

[Selecter]

The reason you have people complaining at wedding is becuase weddings are FILLED with OLDER POEPLE who DONT LIKE LOUD MUSIC and like to be able to TALK at their table when or if they are not dancing.

 

Duh. Ask yer mom if she like loud music. Think about your audience for a change.

[earljam]

Duh. I think the point was that you can be more than loud enough with a small rig. Try paying attention to what you are reading for a change.

[Selecter]

My point is that I've been to too many weddings where the band is so loud everyone in the place complained about it except the 15 yr old kids who think loudness = kewl. The last 3 weddings in 11 yrs I have attended have all had live bands and all 3 of them were overbearing and had to be asked by the bride and groom to turn it down becuase they were pissing poeple off. Its a fine line between being danceable and being overbearing. Weddings typically have a lot of older guests and if it was me playing I would make the judgement to tone down from jump street. or better yet....ASK! how is the sound????

 

MY POINT being........I think it's a common problem based on my experience.

[Selecter]

OH .....and another thing Earl...... BITE ME!!!!

[earljam]

Now don't get yourself all worked up kid, if your going to dish it out you got to be able to take it. This will become clearer as you mature. You are right about weddings though, even though the subject is big rigs. If you want we can start over. I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.

[Banta]

'tis true... big rigs are NOT absolutely necessary. And the single most ruining factor for live sound is excessive volume!

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(I'm gonna keep mine though.)

[Selecter]

Nahhh. having a flame war is MUCH more fun than being smarter. Oh, And Earl.......BITE ME! I know you are incapable of being nicer - it;s just not in you.

[jeremy c]

What I was trying to say was that I play with a very quiet band that still gets asked to turn down. Sometimes we will send the singers and the drummer out to take a break, leaving keys, guitar and bass and STILL get asked to turn down. Why hire a band in the first place if your guests don't want to hear one?

 

So I do understand the question, "why a big rig?" My basic philosophy for wedding gigs is, if you can't get all your gear into the room in one trip, then don't bring so much gear.

 

I understand completely wanting to talk at a wedding and I also hate bandleaders who freak out if "the people aren't dancing". When I go to a wedding with my wife we will probably dance two or three dances and spend the rest of the time visiting with relatives.

 

Playing clubs is a completely different story. You are supposed to be loud, although not so loud that the sound man has to turn off the guitar and bass in the mix because they are overpowering everything else.

 

Sometimes I think people are using stacks because we don't have ears in the back of our knees. The bottom cabinet can't really be heard by the player (although the audience certainly hears it) and what the player hears is coming out of the top speaker. A suggestion would be to use one cabinet and get it up off the floor closer to ear level.

[earljam]

jeremy- Interesting what you said about stacks. I use 2 1x15 cabinets and need to stand well in front of them to hear myself- it's like there's a dead spot in front of them and then the sound blooms farther out. This is confusing to me because bass information is supposed to be omnidirectional and I have been told that bass volume drops off quickly with distance. What I am experiencing seems to be the opposite.

 

selecter- no flame wars on this forum please, I hate having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. just kidding. but seriously, your initial post with the duh statement comes off as very patronizing. sometimes print does that. I know that my own scintillating and rapier-like wit is much better appreciated live. Listen and learn.

[fig]

Yeah, earljam, I'm just using a 4x10, but there's a deadspot when it's close, and it really does blossom out when it's further away.

 

I always try and default to keeping the volume too low, and oddly enough, about the third set last nite, a guy came up and told me the bass was weak, could I turn it up. First two sets were for the dinner crowd, though, and I just wasn't keeping up.

 

I sat on the floor at my house one time, level with the cabinet, had it cranked pretty well, and started moving backwards to find the 'blossom boundry'. Happened around 12 feet away. That blossoming effect is on my mind alot of times, though. Hate stepping out into the dance area to listen, but I guess it's gotta be done without a sound guy.

[73 P Bass]

Goodness, I remember back in the day hauling around a 4 x 10, and an 18" cab. Isn't it great that equipment is so much more efficient? We used to need a 1 ton van, and the drummers pickup to haul all our gear, now my little pickup, and the drummers corolla wagon is all that is needed.

I have a 2 x 10, and I might get another, or maybe a 12", but if there is a P.A. at a club around here, a huge rig is over kill( if the club is too small for a P.A., a huge rig IS definitely over kill!).

Headroom-shmeadroom.

[earljam]

fig, glad its not just me- the problem is that often stage size limitations force me to be in the dead zone with a Fender twin nearby, so although folks in the audience are getting plenty of bass I can't hear my bass very well. what to do? look at the drummers foot. In a different thread jeremyc mentioned aligning the front of his cab with the back of the kick drum. Thought that was interesting and I hope to try it our next gig.

[Russfingers]

HI Guys and Gals,

Sometimes big rigs are an alter ego thing-looks good.That doesn't mean you pump it at ten!I currently have two 4x10 cabs and usually bring one to a gig.I want to buy a solid combo so my back can get a break.I keep reading (never tried) about the new neodyum(?) "Lites" which IMHO will keep the stacks coming and save our backs as well.I think the big rigs are an ego and not a sound issue.

[The Bear Jew]

First things first...

Selector... You owe me royalties for saying "Bite me." So... Bite me. You can write me a check or something.

 

Secondly, big rigs are FUN... as long as having one matches the type of music you play and you don't mind lugging it around. If you're gonna whine, stay home or get a 1x10 combo. Nobody likes a complainer.

 

For my hardcore/metal band, nothing but a big boy will do. We play a lot of places like the one Jeremy described: PA for vocals only, and the room has to be filled via the sound from the bass rig alone. The bass HAS to smack you around in hardcore, or else it's not doing its job. Hence: BIG RIG. 500 watts, 2x10 and 1x15. And yes, we guitarists DO like it loud (4x12 and 100 tube watts, kids!) it IS hardcore, after all!

 

However, when I play bass in my Brit-pop band, I can use a 2x10, 2x12 or 1x15, etc and far less wattage. Why? Because the music has a different dynamic configuration. The guitarist plays clean a lot of the time, and even when he CRANKS and plays LOUDLY.. he's only playing through a 4x10 Fender combo.

 

I could never make an impact in my hardcore band if I used a littler amp. I'd be inaudible. I'd never cut at all.

 

Basically, you have to do whatever is needed to make the situation work for you. If that means you need a big rig, well... you need one.

[jreed]

Right now I have a Ampeg w/4x10. It is loud enough, but, I wouldn't mind getting another cab. Not for volume, if I play a show were I need to be louder than what my rig can do there is usually a PA. More for headroom. Bass rigs don't sound real good when the volume is close to the max. Also, it would probably be a 15 to give some more low end. I always have to boost the bass alot more than the highs to get good sound.

I sat on the floor at my house one time, level with the cabinet, had it cranked pretty well, and started moving backwards to find the 'blossom boundary'. Happened around 12 feet away.

My friend in the band (rythem guitar) keeps telling me to turn up the lows and turn down the highs, but, to me (standing 3 feet in front of my rig)it sounds like shit. Hes about 8 feet away. I'm gonna have to try that and see how it sounds further away.

[_Sweet Willie_]

A 4x10 and a 400W head go a long way in terms of covering a variety of playing situations. I think two 8-ohm 2x10s or two 8-ohm 1x12s is even better -- bring one for smaller gigs and get your amp's power at 8 ohms, bring two for larger gigs and get your amp's power at 4 ohms. I could even see owning a 2x10 and a 1x15 -- the 1x15 might work for some situations, the 2x10 for others, and both for when you need to crank (like CMDN's excellent example).

 

There is definitely something special about the air being pushed by your big rig giving your back a cooling breeze during a sweaty gig, BUT those days are in the past for me. If I suddenly find myself playing the enormo-dome, I'll deal with it then.

 

I think in the end, Maury, your original question comes down not only to the size of the rig, but the ability and intelligence of the band to control and balance its volume. Although rare, I have certainly seen a couple of bands w/ large rigs who are very good about controlling their volume and also seem to listen to each other.

 

Personally, though, not only do I have no need for a big rig right now, but I wouldn't want to cart it around!

 

Peace.

[music-man]

Maury -

 

For what it's worth, I use as small a box as I can; I play my 80W WM10 combo in all kinds of places I shouldn't. (i.e. - Cutting Room). I rarely see pro or semi-pro players using more than a 4x10 (or less often, a 1x15).

 

I find the backlines in most of the Greenwich Village clubs (and the Brooklyn, East Village and Midtown clubs too) are at least a 4x10 and a head that runs at minimum 300W. (Check out that monster at the Elbow Room). And a lot of the rooms that don't have a backline (Luna, Bitter End, Southpaw, etc.) are big spaces. In those spots, if you push a small cabinet (even a 2x10) hard, you end up having to play a good deal LOUDER in order to get a decent, round sound.

 

I guess I'm saying I understand why bass players use more than just a 2x10 in clubs here. Still, I agree that a lot of bands get carried away with the power of their gear, and play way too loud. But that's less a problem of the size of the rig, and more with what's between the ears, isn't it?

 

[Edited merely to chuckle about how similar my post is to Sweet Willie's.]

[alexclaber]

There's something about the apparent size of the sound coming from a big rig. It's more dynamic, has greater bass extension, and because you don't have to push it as hard it sounds cleaner and clearer.

 

My 'big' rig consists of two Acme Low-B2II cabs (originally powered by a Mackie M1400 putting 425W into each, soon to get a QSC PLX putting 900W into each) and although I've considered gigging with just the one, the small amount of extra effort required to bring the second is always worthwhile. As a tall narrow stack it projects the sound out well, it lets you hear yourself better by having speakers up near ear level, and the bass just sounds so much better out front if it's just coming from one high quality source. (NB: Most small PA systems have miserable bass extension, so any good bass cab will blow them away in the true low-end department)

 

It would however look rather OTT at a wedding or coffeehouse gig.

 

On the other hand it's pretty small compared to an SVT & 8x10" rig and minuscule compared to Bootsy's live rig (two 8x10" cabs for the highs, two 8x10" cabs for the high-mids, two 4x15" cabs for the low-mids, two 4x18" cabs for the lows).

 

Alex

[Banta]

I must admit that I haven't played anywhere with my full rig in years, and probably never again will. But I figure if I ever get a wild hair and decide to go on a bass rampage, I'm well prepared.

 

Meanwhile, I normally just use a small combo and run through the PA.

[doc taz]

I like some of the heavy music myself, but I'd still rather try to keep my rig compact. Currently, I only have a Peavey TNT with a 15 inch speaker, and a digitech BP 200 for effects, and sometimes a crybaby and one of my distortion pedals thrown in. My ideal "Big rig" would basically be just a 15 inch speaker cab at the bottom, a 2x10 cab with horn at the top.

 

For ampage, either a 400 watt amp with my current processor, or a Line 6 Bass POD hooked to a 400 watt power amp.

 

I could live with a 4x10/350 watt amp setup though. I mean, I could get the rest of my sound from a good PA. Some of the metal/hardcore bands I've seen lately usually travel with only half stacks now, 'cause even one 4x12 cab in a small club is usually enough to make my ears ring... I use my earplugs there of of course.