Theory Lessons.

[RobT]

My junior high math teacher a similar analogy to learning algerbraic and higher-order math fundamentals. Each builds upon the other and is complimentary to the other once your confidence is built. I wish I would have applied that same tenacity to music at MUCH younger age.

 

I never quite understood the music theory and anti-music theory snobs arguements. If you are taking a trip it always helps to have a map. If you have a map it always helps to be able to read it. It also doesn't mean that you have to follow it exactly either.

 

I'm glad this topic got bumped up. Perhaps some more theory discussions will result.

[ian101]

Just read this thread again and bumping it.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Bump. Part of my New Year's Resolution.

[Arugula]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Major 1-3-5

Minor 1-b3-5

7 1-3-5-b7

9 1-3-5-b7-9

11 1-3-5-b7-9-11 don't ever play the 3rd

13 1-3-5-b7-9-11-13 don't ever play the 11th

Ma7 1-3-5-7

Ma9 1-3-5-7-9

Ma11 1-3-5-7-9-11 you probably won't ever see this one.

Ma13 1-3-5-7-9-11-13 you probably won't ever see this one.

m7 1-b3-5-b7

m9 1-b3-5-b7-9

m11 1-b3-5-b7-9-11

m13 1-b3-5-b7-9-11-13

6/9 1-3-5-6-9

6 1-3-5-6

m6 1-b3-5-6

m(Ma7) 1-b3-5-7

sus4 1-4-5

7sus4 1-4-5-b7

9sus4 1-4-5-b7-9

7b9 1-3-5-b7-b9

7#9 1-3-5-b7-#9

7b13 1-3-5-b7-9-b13

7b9b13 1-3-5-b7-b9-b13

7b5 1-3-b5-b7

!

i don't understand this!!!

 

please help!

[jeremy c]

The list is a list of chord types...the chord type is the first thing in each line. The other numbers are the notes of the scale which are found in each chord.

 

a C major scale has these notes (two octaves worth). Underneath is a number corresponding the the part of the scale each note is.

 

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

 

In the list I wrote:

 

7b9 1 3 5 b7 b9

 

So a C7b9 chord has the 1st, 3rd, 5th, b7th, and b9th notes of the scale, which is C E G Bb and Db.

 

Now learn every chord in every key and memorize the note names and all the locations on your bass neck for all of them and you'll be where I was 25 years ago.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

I sooooo needed to bump this again.

[lowfreq]

"Bump"

As I sit here trying to sight read Teen Town,

Im struggling badly, I need relief from my frustration

Thanks Guys

[way2fat]

Bump. This thread needs to be kept up front. Mr. Moderator?

[Tom Capasso]

Originally posted by way2fat:

Bump. This thread needs to be kept up front. Mr. Moderator?

Sorry - there's no way to do this in the system.

I am glad that someone bumps it from time to time

 

Tom

[way2fat]

Bump. In an attempt to prove that this thread is being used, I submit what may be (will be, if I got it right) my first "copped by ear from the radio" riff. On the way home from work I heard SRV on the radio playing "Crossfire"; I came up with this for the main riff: EEGBDDBDDBDBDE where the E's are the highest notes. The key could be wrong but I think these are the intervals. Can someone who knows the tune let me know?

[way2fat]

Bump. OOPs missed the G#. Heres a theory question- why a major third instead of a minor third? It's a blues tune, right?

[jeremy c]

One of the things that makes a blues what it is the tension between the major third and the minor third.

 

If we are thinking of an E blues, we have an E7, and A7 and B7 chord. Obviously an E major scale is not going to work.

 

An E7 chord has a G#. An A7 chord has a G. Often what is happening is that the soloist is using the G note against the E chord. It's called a blue note. Sometimes it's more ambiguous...it might be a bent note somewhere between G and G#. Meanwhile the bassist and the chord instruments are playing the G#. The tension between the melody and the harmony makes everything sound bluesy.

[way2fat]

E7= EG#BD

A7= AC#EG

B7= BD#F#A

 

Emajor (Ionian)= EF#G#ABC#D#E (No G)

 

So an Emajor scale won't work for......What, exactly. None of the scales have both a major third and a minor third. So which would you pick?

 

Is the tension between the G note and the G# note the tension of going to the 4 chord and back to the One?

What G chord?; you lost me there.

Pardon my neutron star density.

[jeremy c]

Sorry, I meant an E chord.

I edited it.

 

Soloists should start with a minor pentatonic:

E G A B D and play it over everything.

 

Then they should go to a blues scale:

E G A A# B D

 

Then they should alternate G and G#, playing G# on the E7 chord and G on the A7 chord.

 

Or forget all the theory and learn classic blues melodies and solos by ear.....that's the way it's always been done anyway.

 

Meanwhile the bass player plays the notes that go with the chords.

[rockinredneck69]

I like the concept of tension in the notes. Thats something that my teacher has been showing me and although I can't honestly say that I totally understand it, I can feel it when I hear it now that its been pointed out to me. Is it then that the "tension" is what makes a melody what it is?

[Steve Force]

Thanks all to this interesting and enlighening thread--appreciate the refresher!

 

Steve from Motown.

[way2fat]

Bump.

[way2fat]

Bumpity

[saxeT]

Great post folks!.....Although I feel music theory knowledge is not a requirement to play well, I think it helps in communicating the ideas of music. I played a gig several years back with the greatest bass player I have ever heard (Keith Horn) in a Country/Jazz fusion concert and he told me backstage that he doesn't read music at all (maybe he meant that he doesn't read the notes but knows all the chord theory). I don't know how he was able to stay in place so perfectly in such a chart-based structured gig.

 

Speaking of communicating the ideas of music, I will relate an experience that I had a couple of nights ago. Even though I am primarily a sax/keyboard player, I was asked to play bass guitar this studio session for a songwriter (There was no one else available at the time). The song was a medium 3/4 in the Key of Bb. The first 8 chords of the chorus were IV I V I IV I V I (1 bar each). I have noticed that many beginning bassist would always play those 8 notes as Eb Bb F Bb Eb Bb F Bb. Although playing this way would be OK, it would sound fairly bland. Instead of that I tried Eb D C Bb Eb D C Bb and the songwriter was pleased.

 

I make this point for beginning bassist that you need not always play the root of a chord on the strong beat but sometimes another chord tone would be better and give the song more depth. Also, you would have to know the key signature of Bb and the chords tones of Bb Eb and F to know that I was playing a root,3rd, 5th,root pattern. If you know music theory, then you will know what I'm talking about. Finally, I applaud you folks that are serious enough about your music that you will undertake the challenge of learning theory on the hopes that it will improve your playing (which I believe will).

[g.]

Yeah, I love hearing first inversion bass notes placed strategically. They got's lots o' class. First electric player I probably noticed doing this was Jack Bruce for the IV chords of some of the most obvious blues tunes. I copped that back when for me, bass meant playing a bari sax with a mic dropped down the bell into a fuzz box and a wha wah into a Fender Twin.

[saxeT]

....... bass meant playing a bari sax with a mic dropped down the bell into a fuzz box and a wha wah into a Fender Twin.

LOL

I can barely imagine what that would sound like

 

I bet you wished you still had that Twin. I sold my Deluxe Reverb for $150

[way2fat]

bump

[NickT]

Why is it that 1st inversions only sound good in some keys? D/F# and Bb/D sound so much sweeter than most other 1st inversions. Maybe it's just me being weird.

 

On the other hand, playing a 6th underneath a major or dominant chord always seems to sound good. (Maybe I just like m7 chords??? hmmm.)

[jeremy c]

Originally posted by NickT:

Why is it that 1st inversions only sound good in some keys? D/F# and Bb/D sound so much sweeter than most other 1st inversions. Maybe it's just me being weird.

 

On the other hand, playing a 6th underneath a major or dominant chord always seems to sound good. (Maybe I just like m7 chords??? hmmm.)

That's strange.

 

What key is D/F# in? What key is Bb/D in?

 

You don't like G/B? Maybe not in this chord progression:

|G/B |D7 |C |G |

I don't like it there either.

 

But what about this one:

|C |G/B |Am |C/G |

|F |G |G7/B |C G7|

How could you not like that chord progression?

 

If you play an A under a C major chord, you have transformed the chord into an Am7 chord. If you play an A under a C7 chord, you get Am7b9, which is a very unusual and rarely used chord. Maybe this sounds good to you and your bandmates. Maybe just to you.

[Cowbell]

I have a question about modes. I am on spring break and have really been focusing the free time I have to enhance my knowledge of music theory. Bartolini posted a link on the second page to a website where Bunny Brunel posts free lessons. I loaded the page about modes and have learned some information,but do not see how it all relates.

 

Link to lesson on modes.

 

Okay so, I now understand that, for example, a C major scale starting from its root note would be an Ionian mode,correct? And a Dorian mode would be starting from it's second degree,D.

 

However, I do not see exactly when this comes into play. When would I use the Dorian mode,or any other mode at all?

 

In the video,which you can access from the top of the page by pressing V, about halfway into the movie he forms a riff using the Ionian mode in C major. The he says that he can play the same line using the D minor Dorian,and proceeds to play the same line,but with different notes. Could someone explain this? I'm a little confused as to the purpose.

 

One last thing. How can you tell what key a song is in? For example I'm listening to the song Good Times Bad Times by Zeppelin.I can't really give a detailed explaination as to what I'm hearing, but will post a link to a website where you can hear it (high net connection) if you don't have the song. I've narrowed down the key to either A,E, or D. My brother (guitar player) says that there are key changes in the song, but I'm just really confused about all of this. There seem to be a ton of accidentals in this song, and it's very confusing for me.

 

Also, how do I know when to use the major and minor scales in a song? Say my brother is soling in E minor, and the key of the song is in E. What do I do...or just what the hell is going on. My head is killing me over these things. Keep in mind I'm self taught...

[jeremy c]

You have lots of questions.

 

You need to take a theory course, maybe a few.

 

I'll answer a few of your questions.

 

It says right on Bunny's web page when to use the dorian mode. You can use a dorian mode on a minor 7th chord. So on a Dm7 chord you can use a D dorian scale: D E F G A B C D

 

On a Cm7 chord, you can play a C dorian scale:

C D Eb F G A Bb C

 

Read Bunny's page again.

 

Good Times, Bad Times is in the key of E.

It is a rock song, so the normal rules of major scales do not exactly apply. The three main chords of the main riff are E D and A. D is not found in the key of E major, but it's used all the time in rock. Get used to it.

[Nicklab]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

Good Times, Bad Times is in the key of E.

It is a rock song, so the normal rules of major scales do not exactly apply. The three main chords of the main riff are E D and A. D is not found in the key of E major, but it's used all the time in rock. Get used to it.

Too true. Lot's of rock songs, even though they're in a major key, will often opt for a dominant 7th. The major 7 (a half step down from the octave) just sounds too sweet for a lot of rock songs, so they'll opt for the dominant 7. This happens all the time in blues, too. Major 7th's just don't sound right in some contexts. It may not be theoretically correct, but these are instances where you learn that rules can be bent or broken. The almighty rule of "does it sound good?" should always be in the back of your mind. However, it's equally important to know when it's appropriate to "break" the rules and when it's not. That takes a little bit of time to figure out.

[Cowbell]

Originally posted by jeremyc:

You can use a dorian mode on a minor 7th chord. So on a Dm7 chord you can use a D dorian scale: D E F G A B C D

 

On a Cm7 chord, you can play a C dorian scale:

C D Eb F G A Bb C

 

Hmm I see. So when theres a minor 7th chord, such as Dm7, I'm allowed to play a Dorian scale. I don't understand completely what a Dorian is than, because the Dorian scale seems to be the same as a Dm7. Or actually, is this because we are in the key of C, or does the key matter? If it is because we are in the key of C,I think I understand.If not, I apoligize.

 

Thank you jeremy for respoding

[Nicklab]

Dorian is in fact a minor scale, but it's altered from the Aeolian scale, or what most people would call "Natural Minor". It's important to know the aeolian or natural minor scale, since it's the most often used minor scale.

 

In fact, you can relate all of the other minor scales in the modal system by figuring out just what the differences are between aeolian minor and scales like dorian minor, phrygian minor and locrian minor. It works like this: dorian is the minor scale with a sharp 6. Phrygian is a minor scale with a flat 2. Locrian minor, more commonly known as diminished, has a flat 2 and a flat 5.

 

Back to your question:

 

D in the dorian scale (or mode, whichever you prefer) is just as Jeremy laid it out:

 

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

 

However, D minor (aeolian or natural minor) is like this:

 

D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D

 

Remember, where the dorian scale differs from the aeolian is in the 6th degree of the scale. Dorian employs that sharp 6 relative to the aeolian scale. If you can just remember how a given minor scale relates to the natural minor scale, it's a great way to remember how these scales differ from each other.

[Nicklab]

A little more on modes. Modes are the various scales that are built as you progress through a given key. For the sake of ease, let's say we're working with C Major. Within C Major are the following modes:

 

C Ionian (major)

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

 

D Dorian (minor)

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

 

E Phrygian (minor)

E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E

 

F Lydian (major)

F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F

 

G Mixolydian (major, also known as dominant 7th)

G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G

 

A Aeolian (minor, also known as natural minor)

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

 

B Locrian (minor, also known as diminished)

B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B

 

The way each of these scale are defined is by the spacing of the notes in each scale, not by the notes I chose here. We can use the same patterns from each of these scales and transpose them into any key. Say you want to play in E major. Here's how that would transpose:

 

E Ionian

E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E

 

F# Dorian

F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E-F#

 

G# Phrygian

G#-A-B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#

 

...and so on. It's just a matter of learning the patterns for each of these scales, and then you can use them in any key. It's great to have this under your belt.