In the groove

[zujo]

How do you guys know if you are "In the groove"?

 

I hear so much about being an "in the pocket" player but there are so many diferences in players that I think there may be various levels of grooving.

Is grooving a consecuence of having strong time?

Is grooving something you feel but don't hear?

What is it then?

How do you approach making a bassline really stand out from the other guys that play the ame thing?

 

I just want to get your opinions. Thanks!

 

This message has been edited by zujo on 06-01-2001 at 01:51 PM

[lug]

Mainly being locked in good with the drummer for me. If you see the audience shaking their boodies, your there. And by the way, get your own onions, you can't have mine

[Tom Capasso]

I have trouble with these terms also. I think it's because I don't play with a lot of different musicians, and don't play out frequently. I thought that "in the pocket" meant that you are in time, somewhat connected to the drummer (not every note), and are supporting the song (e.g. not soloing, not an overly aggressive part).

 

Ed - how about a glossary of commonly used terms? Make it a video so we can see the terms "in action", as well as their opposites (show someone not playing "in the pocket" - hey is that when the band has an "out of pocket" expense?).

 

Lug - I'm always amazed at how I think I've got grammatically correct, well-typed posts, only to look later and see my mistakes. By the way - it's "you're", instead of "your" in the phrase "your there" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

phonetically yours,

Tom

 

This message has been edited by Tom Capasso on 06-01-2001 at 02:37 PM

[BoneTone]

Like "in the pocket" or "soul", it's arbitrary.

 

Usually "groove" refers to a song with a particularly insistent, rhythmic feel that is just, somehow, right. That feel is usually achieved by the drums and bass playing complimentary patterns.

 

Personally, I think it's sort of like the old, "If you have to ask, you don't know," in that, it just happens without conscious thought, e.g., not - "Now, I am going to groove."

 

To make it stand out, I avoid two things I find occuring with those who don't/can't groove;

 

1. They play the line a fraction too slow.

2. They don't vary the dynamics of their notes. They don't take the right note(s) and stomp on it (them).

 

Hamish Stuart of AWB was really an underrated, solid groover, IMO.

[lug]

I'm boiling my grammer checker as we speak (to make it brighter)

[Ed Friedland]

I had an "out of pocket" experience last night, I had to pay the drummer even though he couldn't groove his way out of a paper bag! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Seriously, talking about groove is largely subjective, but I'm going to try anyway. My column The Right Foot is taking a turn into grooveland. Now that I've covered beginning bass, reading and real world reading, I'm going to start talking about groove issues. Tell me how you like it when it starts showing up in a month or two!

 

Having good time is a part of copping the groove, but it's not the only thing. Many great grooves don't adhere to rigid time. The easiset way to describe being in the pocket is when the whole band feels like it's breathing together.

 

In the pocket doesn't just mean playing subtly, you can be in the groove and still play alot of notes, think of Rocco, Jerry Jemmot or Jaco. To me, being in the groove is the absence of resistance to the flow of music. It's an effortless state of being where you connect with the source.

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[modulusman]

Giving hard and fast rules on groove is probably not a good approach since the variables are endless. The drummer you play with has SO much to do with where you want to place a note. You can play the exact same song (try it) with a couple of different drummers and just like a guitarist/ vocalist can change your harmonic approach, a drummer can affect your rhythmic approach and groove.

Learning from my mistakes and looking at others, try to get to a mindset where there is less that is -wrong- and make more room for the -different-.

I think jams help with this quite a bit. It gives you many opportunities to be humble, stretch your abilities and try to be part of a different approach. Remember that, as painful as it can be, listening to others (mistakes or not) is very helpful too. So many guys (I have been guilty of it too) sit around just waiting to play and don't bother making the most of their wait. Listen for what makes someone bad. Use your ears. I don't think you need to buy a video for this, unless your in a remote region with no jams around!

[j-mo]

Originally posted by Ed Friedland:

> The easiset way to describe being in the pocket is when the whole band feels like it's breathing together.

 

> ...being in the groove is the absence of resistance to the flow of music. It's an effortless state of being where you connect with the source.

 

Ed,

that is about the best explaination for such an intangible thing I've ever heard. You have a true gift.

Guys (and Gals) if you still don't get it after that I would have to say that you have not yet learned to groove. Keep on trying, you'll know it when it happens.

[good morning]

I think you can find a groove with just a drum machine. Or not, and just be in correct time.

 

Being primarily a piano & keys player (and home audio hack), I play against a drum machine. Later, when I listen to myself, I've discovered that being in time only partially contributes to "groove." I suspect groove happens when you make those little timing and style adjustments -- before, on top of, or after the beat -- that are uniquely yours and unique to the way the song is played. These can be conscious or unconscious, and the adjustments can make the same song have different grooves (despite the same style, tempo, instruments).

 

I've found I prefer listening to song versions that have mistakes AND groove rather than versions with only note and timing accuracy. The technically accurate songs just take up disk space, and I wind up erasing them. They're lifeless!

 

lug -- have you heard about boiling bits to put groove into them? I gotta say, you're boiling jokes always make me laugh!

[dansouth]

Record yourself and see if you like the way it sounds. Then you'll KNOW whether you're in the pocket.

[Guest]

I think groove or pocket can have two levels of fulfillment. There is the groove in which band members, or particularly, the rhythm section are tight rhythmically, then there is the groove that is a gift of certain players who have that unique sense of timing that just adds that extra bounce to the rhythm.

 

In a crude way you could use midi technology to demonstrate this:

Compare a house beat (bass and drums) created on a drum sampler quantized (with swing) to 48, or 96ppq, with one done on a computer at 384, or higher ppq. The result is, one pocket is burlap, the other is silk.

[RobT]

I agree with what some of the others stated here. Ed - that was the best definition of something intangible and so hard to describe. You are blessed with a gift my friend. It is one of the main reasons that I keep coming back to this site.

 

Do any of you have a hard time getting your groove back if you haven't played in a long time? Say you practice at home maybe five hours a week and only play out once or twice a month. Or say you play different groups of musicians a couple of times a month. (ie drummers). How do you keep your groove?

 

RobT

[chardin]

I find that I'm in the groove most when I'm able to relax while I play. My brother plays drums and is like a machine when it comes to keeping time. I can relax and play my part and everything comes together.

 

I play in another band where the drummer is always rushing, especially during fills. I'm forever having to play half and whole notes while giving him "the look." Needless to say, I can't relax and the rhythm sounds stiff.

[Steve Lawson]

Originally posted by Ed Friedland:

To me, being in the groove is the absence of resistance to the flow of music. It's an effortless state of being where you connect with the source.

 

Now that's a damned fine description - that's getting filed away for future use. Worthy of a true Zen badass, Ed... LOL

 

Steve

www.steve-lawson.co.uk

[SlimT]

I had a finding the groove experience last week.

 

I'm in a latin jazz band and we were working on the rhythm section for Tito Puente's Ran Kan Kan. We just weren't together and I was identified as the culprit.

 

Yikes!

 

So, we listened to the CD to get a better idea of what was happening that wasn't on the sheet music. I was playing the right notes, I was playing the right rhythm, but it wasn't grooving.

 

After listening to the CD, we all looked at each other with the same glimmer in our eye. The simple (yeah, right!) tumbao was emphasizing the root and octave and the 5th was treated more as a passing tone. I was emphasizing the 5th and the root and octave.

 

Once we discovered that and started playing differently, the whole section was locked, even when the timbale player tried to knock us off with some killer solo work.

 

What is the groove? It's freakin' awesome!

[g.]

Yeah, SlimT, THAT makes sense! I've noticed sometimes that the bass strings when there is some some amp behind them, are so sensitive to touch that phrasing is maybe the biggest asset or liability there is in repetitive rhythmic phrases. There's a microcosm within those so-called "simple" grooves. Those guitarists that ask what's so cool about bass must not be getting to explore this in the same way. It's DEEP.

[KJ]

So many people don't understand that it's not just the notes you play but how you play them that make a song great and groove. Playing muted notes tied to plucked ones, thumping a rythm with no tonality, snapping a note to emphasise it, etc. All of these things just seem to come naturally when I am in a groove. There is one band that I play in, we maybe gig once a month, we never rehearse, but we are all somewhat accomplished musicians. When we all get locked in, it just seems like we are part of a flow, no one has to think about what to play, we all vary our dynamics and attacks in unison, all being supportive of each other. It is an amazing feeling, it's a cliche, but it's AS GOOD AS SEX!!! Sorry I can't be as eloquent as Ed, but there it is.

 

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KJ

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bari man low

[dansouth]

Originally posted by plastic nut:

I think groove or pocket can have two levels of fulfillment. There is the groove in which band members, or particularly, the rhythm section are tight rhythmically, then there is the groove that is a gift of certain players who have that unique sense of timing that just adds that extra bounce to the rhythm.

 

In a crude way you could use midi technology to demonstrate this:

Compare a house beat (bass and drums) created on a drum sampler quantized (with swing) to 48, or 96ppq, with one done on a computer at 384, or higher ppq. The result is, one pocket is burlap, the other is silk.

 

Quantizing is tricky business. There is no pre-defined "swing" value. It can be anywhere from 51% to 80% of a beat. Applying swing quantization on two different sequencers can have vastly different effects for reasons unrelated to their timing resolution.

 

It gets trickier still when you employ a percentage factor. If you set quantize percentage to 80% and a drum hit falls 10 clicks ahead of the beat and while the bass is 15 ticks behind the beat, the resulting quantized values will be 5 ticks apart and may create some unwanted flam effect. And don't even THINK about using a random quantize unless you want the groove to sound like a drunken sailor staggering on a rocking ship.

 

On the other hand, it's possible to create very nice grooves by hard quantizing all notes and then varying their attack levels (usually by adjust the velocity value of each note). This is how "feel" settings work on drum machines like the MPC-60 and R-8. Downbeats are accented, while subdivisions are attenuated, and the result sounds more like a real drummer. Try it and see.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Ed Friedland:

To me, being in the groove is the absence of resistance to the flow of music. It's an effortless state of being where you connect with the source.

 

This is true on many levels. In many musical styles, the bass line should be like makeup on the face of a woman. If it's done well, you don't even notice it, you just appreciate the effect. Our lines should become all but invisible, hypnotically communicating through the body rather than the ears.

[KJ]

AMEN AGAIN DAN!

 

I really enjoy your posts Dan. I agree with alot of what you say, but even if I did not, I must compliment you on your well thought out and articulate posts. There are a number of people that post on all of the boards here on Musicplayer who speak intelligently and professionally, as opposed to some things that I have seen on some other boards. (If you want to see people getting real nasty with each other, read some of the reviews on Harmony Central, especially the Peavey 5150 and Randall Warhead ones. JEEZ!)

 

 

 

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KJ

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bari man low

[Ed Friedland]

I'm real glad to hear all the great comments not just about this topic, but about our forum. Let it be known that the forum is the result of everyone's participation, thanks!

 

I have found that my groove can be effected over time if I have to play with a bad drummer all the time. When I did a lot of wedding gigs, I had to work with guys that were um...rhythmically challeged. Constant exposure to that is tough. You get used to compensating for their weaknesses just to hold it together and then when you go to play with a good drummer, it's like "what the &^$% was THAT?" I would go home and turn on my metronome and just listen to it! It's important to keep recharging your internal clock when forced to play in these conditions all the time.

 

 

 

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www.edfriedland.com