Bergantino Cabs

[Ed Friedland]

Well, I've already raved about my Bergantino 310 elsewhere on the list (New Breed Cabs), but today I just got 2 Bergantino 112 cabs. They are very small, 13x15x18 and light (maybe 30lbs?) 8 ohms, Rated at 300 watts (conservatively). So far in home tests they kick! One of them will handle the low B just fine and give you a nice smooth top end from the bullet tweeter. There is a mid range prescence in the 12 that works great for upright bass and fretless. Putting 2 together really unleashes the bottom end. They come to life! It's a very potent mini-stack that will cover most of my gigs easily. Tomorrow night I bring out one to a jazz trio gig, I'm looking forward to the sound.

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[modulusman]

How much are they? I just bought an Eden 2X12 XLT last month and the growl that you talk about in the 12's is bang on! I think that the 12" speaker is a wonderful combination for bass. And my electric upright has such a beautiful sound now that I don't have to EQ the snot out of it. I agree with that the 12's in general are good for not such a hi-fi sound. I'm getting a little tired of hearing great players playing with generic sounds... then again, the new sound now will be generic later!

I know, it's not just the speaker, but the voicing of a speaker can sure affect the rest of your sound especially if you have too EQ less. That's probably what I like the best about the 12's. My EQ's seem to be going closer to flat. That's a good thing!

[Richard Johnston]

Bass Player just got a selection of the Bergies to try in the office. Look for a review of the 2x10 in the July issue.

 

Richard Johnston

[Ed Friedland]

The retail price on the Berg 112 is $749, but will probably actually sell for around $549. I took one out last night for my steady Friday night jazz trio gig with Dickie Thompson,(for more info on Dickie check out "Curious Cat" at - www.edfriedland.com/articles.html).

Anyway, it was amazing! I put it right on the floor and the low B string was so full and clear, you couldn't believe it came out of such a little box. My sound was very articulate, I could hear everything I played. When I slapped on one tune, the high end just jumped out of the box like it had been coiled up waiting to spring. Since I'm there every week, the sound man and the audience is all used to the sound I get, they all mentioned how much better it was this week. I can't wait until I use both of the 112s together, it's gonna RAWK!

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[harp]

hey ed, i know it may be hard to put the 310 and two 1x12's in a side by side. but it sounds like you are really hot on the 112 set-up. what differences are you hearing between the two? thanks.

[harp]

i had read on glenn letsch's website an article about speakers where he, in most situations advocates all 10's. i was curious about the difference in sound coming from 10's vs 12's. sorry for the additional post, but i wanted to explain what was behind the question. thanks again.

[Ed Friedland]

Well, I did side by side test the 310 and the 2 - 112s. The 310 has more deep, sub harmonic lows happening. It has an overall bigger sound. The

2 -112 stack has lots of bottom as well, but it's not as deep, the overall sound curve is more mid-range. The highs are equally present on both cabs. I think the mini-stack would cover just about any gig, but if I need to push some big air, I'd go with the 310 for sure. It's overall a beefier setup. The 112 stack sounds great for fretless and upright, the midrange is just right for those axes. I can't wait until I have the chance to use BOTH! Imagine running all of them off either side of an amp. Gonna tear the roof off tha suckah!

 

10's have inherently less bottom than 12's due to the surface area of the cone. 12's tend to have a bit more in the low-mid range. However with many companies pushing the envelope of speaker technology, it's possible for a 10" speaker to perform very well as a full range driver.

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Guest]

I always thought the Checker cabs were cool... with the jump seat, and all.

[Ed Friedland]

Yeah, I remember the Checkers. It used to be the favorite car for upright bassists. The jump seat in the Checker was cool, but now the NY cabs have little recordings of Dr. Ruth telling you to buckle up and take your personal belongings!

 

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[g.]

Concerning low-end extension for Bergantino, there's a considerable difference between the 2-12 and two of 1-12 -- both in the supplied specs, and the amount of cabinet per driver.

[Ed Friedland]

This is a reply from Jim Bergantino:

 

<

 

There should not be a quest to find any speaker that can rattle your knees on a low B and fit in the glove compartment of your car. The laws of physics, not a designers imagination or marketers misleading and/or false claims, dictate the science of sound! There is no free lunch here.

 

The bottom line is that every bass player should audition as many speakers as they can to find the one that best works for them. Fortunately, there are many designs out there by different manufacturers that all sound different. That's why Baskin & Robbins has(d) 31 flavors of ice cream. We all have different taste, but unfortunately different budgets. Hopefully someday every bass player will be able to obtain their sought after tone! >>

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[xtian_dup1]

Hey Ed,

I have a weird "practical" question... If yer gonna use the 3x10 and one (or both) of the 1x12's, how are you physically going to place the boxes on the stage? The 3x10 on top of the (I assume) 2 1x12's, or the other way around?

 

If so, why?

 

Glad I'm not a cat... ;-)

- Christian

Budapest, Hungary

[g.]

Just wanted to note that I didn't consider a pair of 1-12 cabs as a substitute for a 2-12 -- indeed, I was pointing out the difference.

[Jim Bergantino]

Hi Greenboy,

 

I apoligize for the way my response may have come across regarding your statement comparing the 112 vs 212. You were correct and I never felt you were implying anything from it. I just wanted to point out the thought process behind the design so that people will understand my intentions. Thank you for you post and I look forward to many more from you and others!

 

Jim

[g.]

No offense taken, Jim... I figured your post was just using mine as a launching pad : }  There are two reasons to offer lots of configs: the one you mentioned, and the other one -- the fact that everybody is going to have preferences whether based on current actuality or not ; }

 

Pretty much any time I buy gear I research heavily and you just gave me a couple more pieces of relevant info. My current inclinations are not based on free lunches from the world of physics, and I think the sound and specs of your cabs are looking good. I'd ask you to print graphs for them, but I think a trip to Bass Northwest will tell me what I need to know. Besides, some of the frequency graphs I've seen of other products bear little resemblance to the actual state of things. So comparing on that is a loser's game.

[Ed Friedland]

Christian,

Well, that's a tricky one. The 112s are about 18" wide and 15" tall. The 310 is 23" wide. I'd probably put one of the 112s on top of the 310. The 112 is not as deep (13") as the 310 (20") so it wouldn't be very stable to put the 310 on top. I might just do a side by side if I used both 112s. That's how they sit in my studio, though I haven't tried plugging them all in, it would literally blow my windows out! I don't think I'd ever NEED to use them all, it might be fun to try it, but I don't play any gigs where I'd need all that. The 310 will cover anything I need to do.

 

On the other hand, I believe the 212 cab is practically the same size box as the 310.

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Jim Bergantino]

Hi Greenboy,

 

Actually "springboard" came to my mind! Anyways you are right again about not judging any piece of gear based on specs alone. Since there is no real standard, many times you may be comparing "apples and oranges". The only way to judge any piece of gear is to audition for yourself and let YOUR ears be your judge. What may work for someone else may not work for you. Also, it is quite possible, for instance, to have 10 speakers measure the same but sound completely different. There are many subtle and not so subtle details that go into the design of a speaker which contribute to its tone. No one spec can even come close to defining the tone and performance of any speaker. This is why specs should ultimately only be used as a guide at most, and not take the place of an actual audition. Thank you once again for your post and interest!

 

Jim

[Ben]

Hey, as long as we've got Jim Bergantino on the line, and Ed moving his new cabinets around into different configurations, I've got a question that I've pondered for years.

 

I think that when you stack bass cabinets up, you get better sound on stage, up at ear level out where you are standing.

 

But if you want better sound in the room, you should put as many speaker cones and ports as close to the floor as you can. (This is just based on the standard stuff about room boundaries reinforcing bass.) So if Ed wants the best sound in the room he should just put all three of his cabinets on the floor, side by side.

 

Jim, I would be very interested in any comments you might have on this.

 

Thanks!

[spankmestudios]

Hey,

 

I agree with Jim you got try out different speakers in different places. Specs are no sub for this. Plus with EQ, you can even out a lot of the differences between speaker sizes.

 

Tony

[Jim Bergantino]

First of all, I would like to thank Ben and Tony for their posts and Ben's invitation to respond. The only thing I would like to say regarding Tony's comments about the eq (another "springboard" for me!)is that a properly designed speaker should sound great flat, with minimal if any eq (salt to taste as I call it). In fact, before you audition any speaker you should set all tone controls, eq settings, etc. flat, so that you can hear the true characteristics of the speaker. Then if you feel a need, adjust any tone controls gradually until you dial in your desired sound. I'm amazed at how many times I've set up one of my speakers for someone to audition, and before they even played a single note, they put a smiley face on the eq and depressed the "thumb" knob! When you plug into a well balanced speaker, you'll be amazed at how little if any eq you need. In fact, you will also be amazed at how much more effortless your playing style will become because you're not "fighting" your speaker. And finally, if you're not fighting or eq'ing you're speaker to death, you will also be amazed at how much better you will sound through the PA! Remember, what you hear from your bass cabinet will effect how you play your instrument as well as adjust your tone controls. If your bass cabinet is "saying" one thing and the PA another, chances are you're not going to sound in front of the house what you're hearing on the stage.

 

As for Ben's comments on speaker placement and room boundaries. I could probably write a book on this one! The world of acoustics and how speakers interact with their environment is a science in itself. But to best answer your question Ben let me start by saying that speaker placement within a room definetly effects the perceived tonal balance of that speaker. Closer to, or on the floor will increase the bass response due to boundary interaction as you stated earlier. Also, if your standing in front of your speaker, and it is on the floor, you're hearing the off axis response of the speaker which rolls off as frequency increases. So this, along with floor placement can sometimes cause a speaker to sound too "bassy". This is probably why you like your speakers stacked while playing, to better hear yourself since you're listening to the speaker's on axis response, where it is flattest. As a side note, I'm an advocate of using the casters while playing(when available). This is because it helps decouple the cabinet from the floor so you hear more of the cabinet and less of the floor or stage vibration. Although many bass players like the added bass of coupling the speaker to the floor, I find it muddies up the bass and takes away from the bass detail and definiton. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. Getting back to the second half of Ben's statement about sounding better in a room when on the floor. The further someone is from a speaker in a given room, the more of the room response of the speaker they're going to hear than the direct response someone two feet away will hear. This room response will definitly take on the characterists of the room. (i.e. damper sounding-carpeted floors draperies, large crowd of people. Livelier sounding-wooden floors, hard walls, smaller crowd of people) Some rooms will sound warmer and more musical than others. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's hard to make a general statement as to which placement sounds better. There are so many variables which are out of our control that contributes to the sound we hear. Some quick advice I would like to offer is that if you're ever in a situation where the room just won't let you "dial" in your sound, if possible, try moving your speakers a few feet in different directions! If you're stuck in a corner, try to make sure the speaker is different distances from each side wall. You're still going to get boundary interactions, but at least they won't all happen at the same frequencies. Just remember, acoustics and symmetry do not get along! I hope this answers you're question!?

 

Jim

[Ed Friedland]

Last night was my first chance to light up both Bergantino 112s with my QSC PLX 1604. I was doing a casual gig with a variety band that plays lots of high energy R&B. The crowd was a big pharmaceutical company and they wanted to party (I stayed away from the punch bowl). So, it was cranksville all night long. The first set was light dinner music and I had to play quiet. I got to solo alot and I found even at low volume I heard myself very clear. That was a unique experience.

 

Second set was dance stuff and I thought the rig did well, I was using my Carvin BB75 through a Zoom 506II. The effects came through very nicely, the chorus in particular was reproduced better than I'd ever heard before. I was still thinking to myself that the QSC wasn't as loud as I would think for 1600 watts bridged mono into 4 ohms.

 

The third set I went to play and everything was dead! I freaked for a second but tracked it down to a dead battery in the Carvin. Luckily I had a spare and the flip up battery compartment meant I was back in business quickly. For an experiment, I skipped the Zoom for this set. It was a whole new ballgame! The combination of a fresh battery and no tone sucking effects pedal gave me a much hotter signal to the preamp and the sound was amazing. I pushed those little guys real hard, covering a room big enough for 3,000 people and pinned the bartenders to the back wall. The low B was massive and defined, slapping was chunky and the popping was crystal-like. Wow! What a rig. The best part was at the end of the night when I loaded these 2 little babys into my truck, easily lifting each of them with one hand. I think we have a winner!

 

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[Ben]

Details! We want details!

 

The amp finally got a chance to breathe, like you might expect, the mysterious lack of power gone? The cabs, did you stack or side-by-side 'em? What preamp?

 

(Zoom 506: I have never had an effects pedal in my life, was considering the Zoom based on the thread here, but read a bunch of reviews on Harmony Central about how it was definitely low-fi, so didn't.)

[Ed Friedland]

Okay, sorry if I left out any details.

 

I was using my Carvin BB75 through a Zoom 506 II into a TC ELectronics 1144 preamp. Powered by a QSC PLX 1604 amp running bridged mono into 2 Berganitno 112 cabs (a 4 ohm load) stacked vertically.

 

The PLX definitely handled the rig. It was loud enough to cut a very big room all by itself without help from the PA. The 2 little Bergs put out an amazing amount of full range sound without any distortion or coloration. In fact it was extremely well defined throughout the entire range of the bass.

As I said my best results came after putting a fresh battery in the bass and ditching the Zoom.

 

The Zoom is a good unit, but virtually all effect units detract from the signal unless they are designed as "true bypass". I find the Zoom takes away some of the prescence of the instrument, maybe a little volume too. When you use the effect, you tend to program some of that back in with eq, volume levels or compression. (I don't use the Zoom for compression). So, as far as judging a rig critically for performance, it's probably best to skip the pedals until you know what the rig will do. I'll still use the Zoom because it's convenient, and it's not bad for what it is.

 

One problem I had with the first PLX amp was I tried to connect the bridge mode with a 2 contact Speakon cable. It needs a 4 contact Speakon, so I wasn't getting bridge mode at all. Right now I'm using a banana plug into the 1/4" input of the speaker. It's definitely louder now.

 

Here's a question though for the tech crew -

 

If I need a 4 contact Speakon cable for bridge mode on the amp, how does that work at the speaker end? Is it 4 contacts at the amp and 2 at the speaker? Or 4 on both end? Does it matter? I'd like to go to all Speakon connectors if possible.

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[j-mo]

I only got one problem with all these "high end" 2x10 cabs (SWR,Eden,Bergantino,etc..).

I can not see my way to paying $1000.00 plus for a 2x10 cab,PERIOD.

I understand recouping the cost of R&D but geeze.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers but that just seems a bit much for any compact cab.

(Oh boy, if anyone is still reading this thread I'm sure I'm gonna get it now)

[wannabeabassman]

Ed,

 

I think your battery may have had an effect on your second set. If you play a battery till it dies, or rather reaches a point where it's amperage won't drive the device it's connected to, you're going to get a noticeable drop in performance. A battery doesn't have a flat output over its life. The output rolls off in an increasingly steep curve. You should never wait till a battery dies before changing it. Keep track of how long one lasts, then change batteries at about 2/3 that point.

 

David

[Ed Friedland]

David,

That's a good tip, but I'm afraid I'm not that organized! All my basses recieve varying usage and keeping a mental log of how long the battery has been in use is tough to do. I suppose I could keep a battery tester in my gig bag and check before every gig, that would be smart and professional. Maybe I'll try that.

 

j-mo,

Yeah, I understand how you feel about the cost of the high end cabs. But honestly, when I compare the sound to the less expensive stuff, I think it's worth it. More than recouping the R&D costs of developing a cab, the materials are also a factor. The speaker cab is a critical link in your sound chain. Why spend huge bucks on a bass and/or amp and play through a cheap cab? Even if you have an "average" bass, a good rig can bring out it's best qualities. It's not just a matter of high fidelity, it's about projection, how your bass fills out the band and the room. A great cab will do that. I played for years on what was considered the best cabs around by many people. They ARE good, but after using the Bergs I see there is a measurable difference in quality, perhaps that difference is also measured in dollars. You have to try it for yourself and see if you can justify the expense. My sense is once you experience the difference a great cab makes on your sound, you'll quote that old TV commercial - "Yes it's more expensive...but I'm worth it!"

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[GIBSONGEEK]

HEY GUYS! I GUESS I'M A LITTLE LATE GETTING IN ON THIS POST BUT.....JUST TO CLEAR THE RECORD, JIM BERGANTINO IS AN EVIL MAN! HE HAS TRIED TO BEAT ME INTO SUBMISSION ON THIS SPEAKER THING FOR A LONG TIME! SEE, I DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS A PORTED CABINET MADE THAT WOULD DO THE JOB FOR ME. AFTER OVER A YEAR OF COAXING AND PRODDING I TOOK OUT ONE OF HIS CABINETS ON A GIG. WELL I THINK WE ALL KNOW WHERE THIS IS GOING! NOW IT SEEMS EVERY TIME I GET WITHIN 50 FEET OF THIS MAD SCIENTIST, MY DAMN WALLET HEATS UP!

ALL KIDDING ASIDE, IF YOU HAVN'T TRIED THESE CABS YOU MUST! THEY ARE WORTH EVERY PENNY IF YOUR TONE IS IMPORTANT! THANKS FOR THE RANT!!!

[Ed Friedland]

Gibsongeek,

Since I can't email you off-list, I must ask you to kindly refrain from posting in all capital letters. In case you're not aware of it, it is the online equivalent of shouting at the top of your lungs. We appreciate your enthusiasm, but would prefer if you didn't send in your posts that way. If it's a typing issue, then all small letters is preferable!

Thanks

 

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www.edfriedland.com

[g.]

Yeah, more caps doesn't make you more right or anything. It's not the Spinal Tap "11" equivalent for steam-driven ARPNET terminals either ; }

 

All respect to Mr Bergantino -- whose work and sonic philosophy I really admire -- telling Mr Turner to dump his Euphonics is a bit overboard too. Every time a new great cabinet comes out it doesn't make the Epifanis and EAs and Acmes suddenly begin to sound like chopped liver. Those guys did their homework too. And great work it is.

[j-mo]

Originally posted by Ed Friedland:

 

"j-mo,

Yeah, I understand how you feel about the cost of the high end cabs. But honestly, when I compare the sound to the less expensive stuff, I think it's worth it."

 

Tell you what, I will try to get my hands on one and see how it compares with my SWR 8x8 on a gig. I would love to not have to lug around any more cab than is necessary but this thing would have to be a DRAMATIC difference in order to justify a grand plus for a 2x10 cab. It just seems to me that once "manufactures" realize that people will pay X amount of dollars for a product, the actual cost to produce the item becomes means nothing. I know, I know the worlds not a fair place and everyone has to make a living and blah blah blah....it still feels like theft. (man I sound like "super jaded guy". I'm not really.) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif