zujo Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 Hey guys does anybody have any suggestions for soloing on Goodbye Pork Pie Hat by Mingus? This tune is kicking my butt. What would be some of the better approaches for improvising on it? The progression in case you dont have the Real Book is: |F7 Db7|Gbmaj7 B7|Eb7 Db7|Eb7 F7| |Bbmin7 Db7|Gmin7 C7|D7 G7|Db7 Gbmaj7| | B7 Bb7|C7 Eb7|F7 Db7|Gbmaj7 B7| "Word to your mother" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Malone Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 On the Ah Um album it's down a whole step and starts on Eb7. The solo section has a different set of changes than are in the real book. There are other collections out on Charles Mingus that are transcribed from his recordings. I have basses to play, places to be and good music to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 Yeah, the Real Book is notorious for imposing it's own changes on a tune. However, so many people never look any further for their jazz repertoire, it's good to learn it that way. If you call Porkpie on a gig, 9 out of 10 people play it that way. It's not really possible to give you a complete answer on how to solo over this tune here, but: 1) Learn the melody 2) Be able to arpeggiate the chord structures in root position and all inversions 3) Identify key centers that occur through the tune 4) Listen to other people play on it, maybe transcribe someone else's solo 5) Look for how the 3rds and 7ths of each chord resolve into each other 6) Let it breate, don't overplay ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimT Posted May 9, 2001 Share Posted May 9, 2001 Zujo: I just got a book/CD combo that is helping me learn how to improvise. I've always had a prolific musician in my head, but getting it out of my head has been the problem. The book is Creative Beginnings: An introduction to Jazz Improvisation, by Scott Reeves. This is his first book. He's also got an intermediate/advanced book out there, as well. I know there are a number of good references out there. Another one that I'm working through is Improvising Jazz, by Jerry Coker. The book by Reeves is more of a method book and is thick. Improvising Jazz is pretty thin (in size) with one sentence describing exercises that can take a long time to work on. It does a pretty good job of giving the overview of key elements. I'm quite interested in what others have done to learn and improve their improvising. This place is cool! SlimT It's all about the rumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Lawson Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 The best way I've found to improve my improv is doing it. I know that sounds like a total cop out, but the constant feedback loop that you get from trying things out and evaluating in the moment whether they work or not is priceless, and not even jamming with band in a box or practice CDs will give you that because they don't change. improv at its best is about everyone having a conversation, and you only learn what to say and how to respond by trying things out... I will add that it's best to get a duo or trio together for that purpose, so that you can play things very slowly, and go round chorusses or whatever, but play with other musicians as much as possible. I was a great 'theoretical jazzer' for years before I got any good at what was required on a gig. and only the gigging and real rehearsing got me any better... For solo improv, again I just do it - get a loop going and try things out, record it and then evaluate it. Get used to hearing ahead of time what's cool and what not, and avoiding what's not... I now very rarely play notes I don't like on solo gigs... LOL And remember you can never know too much theory or have too many chops - it's what you do with them and how your prioritise it that counts... cheers Steve www.steve-lawson.co.uk StevieLand - go on, you know you want to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lug Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 I tryed improv but they said I wasn't funny enough and to work on getting better material before I came back. You can stop now -jeremyc STOP QUOTING EVERY THING I SAY!!! -Bass_god_offspring lug, you should add that statement to you signature.-Tenstrum I'm not sure any argument can top lug's. - Sweet Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Well, think of it this way. If you came up with a million melodies for that chord progression, you wouldn't have scratched the surface. Here are a few approaches to try. (1) Vary the melody, a little or a lot. (2) Come up with some new 1- and 2-bar phrases that fit the changes. Remember to leave some "space" between phrases. (3) When you've completed two or more versions of exercises (1) and (2), build a composite solo out of pieces of the others. (4) Try to find repetitive three- and four-note patterns which, when modified slightly, match the chords loosely. Example: F7 - C, Eb, F, Ab (the #9) Db7 - Cb, Eb (the 9th), F, Ab GbM7 - Bb, Db, F, Ab B7 - A, C# (the 9th), F#, G# (the 13th) Eb7 - Bb, Db, F, G etc. You're only changing one of two notes slightly for each new chord. Have fun!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimT Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Dansouth said: (4) Try to find repetitive three- and four-note patterns which, when modified slightly, match the chords loosely. Example: F7 - C, Eb, F, Ab (the #9) Db7 - Cb, Eb (the 9th), F, Ab GbM7 - Bb, Db, F, Ab B7 - A, C# (the 9th), F#, G# (the 13th) Eb7 - Bb, Db, F, G etc. You're only changing one of two notes slightly for each new chord. That was a cool demontration! Thanks, Dansouth! SlimT It's all about the rumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Originally posted by SlimT: That was a cool demontration! Thanks, Dansouth! You're welcome. Sorry for the typo in the last line. I meant to say that you only have to change one OR two notes for each new chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zujo Posted May 10, 2001 Author Share Posted May 10, 2001 Originally posted by Ed Friedland: <<>> Ed and everyone, thanks for your responses on this subject. Ed, You lost me a little bit with the statement above. I am not looking for a free class, but hey you brought it up! What exactly am I looking for by determining the resolution of thethird and sevenths of the chords? and how does that provide improvisational material? Thanks a bunch!! "Word to your mother" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted May 10, 2001 Share Posted May 10, 2001 Originally posted by zujo: What exactly am I looking for by determining the resolution of thethird and sevenths of the chords? and how does that provide improvisational material? Consider this progression: Dm7 G7 CMAJ7 FMAJ7 In a typical song, more would follow, but this is enough to illustrate the technique. The 3rd of the Dm7 is F. This is also the 7th of G7. The third of CMAJ7 is E, which is also the 7th of FMAJ7. So, you could play a bunch of F's over the first two chords and a bunch of E's over the latter two. More realistically, you might use the F's and the E's as anchors for your solo line. You might play something like F G A F D E | F____ D G F | E F G E C D | E__ A____ (I've separated the measures with | symbols. You can apply a suitable rhythm.) A similar pattern would appear if you had started on C, the seventh of the Dm7 chord: Play C over Dm7, then B or D over G7, then B or D over CMAJ7, then C or E over FMAJ7, and use these notes as the basis for developing your melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Friedland Posted May 11, 2001 Share Posted May 11, 2001 That's it Dan, the 3rds and 7ths are called "guide tones" because they give you specific info about the chord (major or minor triad, major or minor 7th). One way to use them is to look for the internal melodies they create. For instance: In a II-7/V7/Imaj7 progression, (let's say in the key of C) the b7 of the II-7 (D-7) is a C. When the chord changes to V7 (G7), that note resolves down a half step to a B. The b7 of the G7 (an F) resolves down a half step to an E, the 3rd of the Cmaj7 (Imaj7). This gives you an "internal melody" line that can be used for soloing. In the following example, the notes under the first bar are all 8th notes. You play up a Dm7 arpeggio and when it changes to G7, you use the guide tone resolution (C to B), walk down the scale to F. The F resolves to the E right when the G7 chord changes to Cmaj7. Make sense? |D-7 G7 | Cmaj7 | |D F A C B A G F | E_____ Hey, shameless plug time, check out my book "Bass Improvisation"! www.edfriedland.com/books.html ------------------ www.edfriedland.com www.edfriedland.com The Bass Whisperer Bass Whisperer TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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