The controversial Mr. Berlin

[dansouth]

So, anybody have an opinion on Mr. Jeff Berlin and his provocative columns in Bass Player? For the record, I agree with most of what he says, e.g. a good teacher will take you farther and get you there faster than a stack of instructional videos. I'm sure that there are varying opinions on this topic, so let 'em rip!

[dude_dup3]

I don't get it...are you trying to provoke a dog fight or something???

 

This is a new forum and I for one would hope that the typical BS doesn't happen here. Let's get them all out on the table now then why don't we??

 

Zon basses suck, Carol Kaye played all the Motown tunes, Jaco was a wanker, Sadowsky uses Warmoth parts...lets see what else can we do to bring this new forum right down to the level of all the rest??

 

Ummm...oh yeah..graphite necks and EMG pickups sound "sterile"; Dann Glenn is really just Jeff Berlin in a funny hat.

 

Ahh yes...lets get into the Tube vs SS debate while we're at it...might as well!!

 

I say let's keep all of these little "debates" in one thread so we don't have to spoil this newsgroup too!

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Dude on 02-01-2001 at 08:01 PM

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Dude:

I don't get it...are you trying to provoke a dog fight or something???

 

This is a new forum and I for one would hope that the typical BS doesn't happen here. Let's get them all out on the table now then why don't we??

 

Zon basses suck, Carol Kaye played all the Motown tunes, Jaco was a wanker, Sadowsky uses Warmoth parts...lets see what else can we do to bring this new forum right down to the level of all the rest??

 

Ummm...oh yeah..graphite necks and EMG pickups sound "sterile"; Dann Glenn is really just Jeff Berlin in a funny hat.

 

Ahh yes...lets get into the Tube vs SS debate while we're at it...might as well!!

 

I say let's keep all of these little "debates" in one thread so we don't have to spoil this newsgroup too!

 

 

 

 

This message has been edited by Dude on 02-01-2001 at 08:01 PM

 

No, I'm afraid that I don't get it. I posted a serious question - not "typical BS" - because I'd like to hear what people think about the topic, i.e. has Mr. Berlin's advice helped you, hindered you, confused you, infuriated you, etc? I think the guy makes some valid points, but at times I've felt like he's spent a dozen columns saying what he could have summed up in two.

 

Regardless, I would like to know what OTHER bassists think. If you've followed his advice and it worked for you, I'd like to know that. If it set you back three years, I'd like to know THAT. If this is some kind of hot button issue for you personally, you can choose to ignore this thread, but if you have some thoughts on the subject, positive or negative, I would be interested in hearing your viewpoint. I hope that you'll accept my interest as sincere, because it is.

[BassLand]

I agree with you you Dan. It seems though someone who is accusing you of starting a dog fight is starting one of his own. Don't be sucked in by the troll...

 

BassLand

[dude_dup3]

LOL...(speaking of "trolls" Hey Bob!!)

 

This subject did not strike any "personal hot button" for me.

 

Dan,

 

I guess the reason I misunderstood the intent of your post was your ending "Let em rip" comment which I took the wrong way.

 

This message has been edited by Dude on 02-01-2001 at 08:58 PM

[Bill_dup6]

i don't think there is anything controversial about Berlins philosophy at all. after all who could argue with; find a good teacher that directs your study, learn the basics of harmony, melody and rhythm. work hard, have varied interests( learn from all genres) and so forth. I think what -is- controversial is his seeming intent to turn this all into some sort of mission. I'd still have to say, at least he has got me thinking about what sort of education might be best and how hard am i willing to work. what am i willing to give up for what i say i want.

Actually i havent read any of his columns latley, i cancelled my subscription a few years ago. My favorite columnist was allways Anthony Jackson.

 

bill

[Ed Friedland]

Well, I think this is an easy thread to keep cool, let's all just step back. I understand Dude's concern, having been a moderator on another forum, he knows all too well what threads tend to escalate into Holy Wars. (He listed them pretty much in order!)

 

I'm sure Dan's intent was not to enflame, but it's hard to tell what people are trying to get across online sometimes. (Hey Dan, use those groovy smilies in your post http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ) Just kidding.

 

Anyway, let's please not get into anything from Dude's list! In answer to your question -

I personally have nothing but the utmost respect for Jeff Berlin as a player, teacher and writer. As a matter of fact, his columns in GP many years ago were a major influence on me when I started writing about the bass. I love his wicked sense of humor, and his sense of what's right (even if he can be a little heavy handed at times). He's not perfect, who is, but you can't dispute that this guy will play any of us under the table 5 times over. Whatever he's talking about, he can certainly back it up with the goods.

Yes, he can be inflammatory, he's pissed me off several times (so has Anthony Jackson whose playing and writing I also love). That's not a bad thing though, it makes you think outside of your comfort zone. That will only trigger growth. So.....I'm happy to let this thread continue, but I won't entertain personality bashing, and I think that is what Dude was concerned about happening.

[Ed Friedland]

On the subject of personality bashing, I think Bassland's reference >>Don't be sucked in by the troll...<< and the resulting reply from Dude >>LOL...(speaking of "trolls" Hey Bob!!)<< gets too close to that. I don't care what you do at home, but I'm going to keep a tight reign on that stuff onlist. Whatever thrashing about you'd like to do can be taken to private email, and I want it known that I would appreciate people registering WITH an email address visible as it will tend to make them more accountable for their posts.I've seen what happens on other forums, and believe me, it ain't gonna happen here. Thanks, and that's hopefully all I will have to say about that.

[dude_dup3]

But, but, but..He started it!!!

[Ed Friedland]

Enough, now go to your room, and TURN THAT MUSIC DOWN!!!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[dude_dup3]

Oh all right!

[rainer_dup1]

I think there is one point that has not been mentioned. Jeff talked about a lot of things most teachers/writers/editor forget. Making music is not only a question of basses, amps and strings. I was very happy to read one article from Jeff where he talked about 'being able to play' and 'being able to perform'.

 

Jeff showed experience in topics (internal and external) that hinder a lot of player to play as good as the can. Could have been background for some of his statements. And IMHO this is of same importance for players as scales and reading music.

 

From my point of view Jeff is hard to take. But there is still a lot we can learn from him, at least the beginning and intermediate players.

[BassLand]

Back to the subject at hand, I met Jeff 22 years ago and consider him a friend. Yes he is controversial (you'd have to consider that of any bassist that boxes for a hobby).

 

I know Jeff is a phenomenal player (He was a teacher at MI when I was there) He once started of a lecture with "You think ---- has chops? (ad well known players name who is known for playing many notes as Jeff himself was known at that time) well he has no chops ------ (a meat and potatoes, but grooving his butt off, player) really has the chops.".

 

Of course this shocked all the hotrod BIT'ers in the room (most of whom probably guaged a bassist's value in notes per bar). I now realize that it was Jeff's intention to shock that class into seeing things another way. I see that all throughout his writing. Most of it is misunderstood and maybe it is a product of knee-jerk reactions to what the eyes first see. I see a lot of that on the internet.

 

On a personal note I have been on online forums for over 6 years and as a policy I do not put my email address on forums and will never do so here. I list my website and I can be reached several ways from there. If that is a problem for the management of this or any other forum, I am sure you/they will know how to deal with it.

 

 

BassLand

 

http://BassLand.net

 

 

 

This message has been edited by BassLand on 02-02-2001 at 10:48 AM

[ST.Morigeaugte.net]

If you ain't being pushed, badgered or beaten.... as well as given the smallest amount of praise.. followed by that was good now do better... then I say you ain't learning. I agree with everything Berlin has to say. I guess I'm just bias though..

 

Study hard, do your homework and show up for your lesson prepared... ain't nuttin wrong with that.

 

My theory instructor likes your money, but only as a byproduct in a way... his passion runs way deeper... he wants you to progress, cuz you if don't.. then there are people standing in line who do.. I again believe this to Berlin's message in the BP article.

 

If interested checkout BP Dec 97 issue.. I beleive article is titled.. 'Making the Grade'. Randy McCluskey is my instructor and he is as stated in the article. You can view it from BP's web, just gotta click around a bit.

 

You find somebody like that in your area and you worship this person.... cuz they are right and they will make you a better player!!

 

Just MHO

 

Mo

[dansouth]

Thanks all for keeping to the topic that I introduced. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif (Hey Ed - I used a smiley!) I appreciate all of your comments.

 

Here's something that Mr. Berlin got me wondering about. What percentage of people giving bass lessons would Jeff himself consider "good teachers?" How does a young, inexperienced player determine whether the "bass guy" at the local music emporium is a qualified teacher and not some lick-heavy hacker? What makes a good teacher, and how do you find one? Any ideas on how a good bass lesson should be structured?

[Ed Friedland]

Bob -

I agree with you on Jeff, he is misunderstood in print. I think he understands that one of the roles of a good teacher is to pull the rug out from under the student's perception of reality. This is never comfortable, but it always precipitates learning. If you are comfortable, there is no motivation to move, lack of movement produces stagnation. That's not going to make you a better player.

Dan -

I like the question about what to look for in a teacher, let's make that a new topic!

[jeremy_dup1]

Of course I read all Mr. Berlin's columns. They were very well done and raised a lot of good issues. I attended one of his clinics. He was a true gentleman and gave a very good class..not just a demonstration of techniques and question and answers like so many so-called clinicians do.

I also so him play with Bill Bruford many years ago. He plays well and has a unique voice.

TBL didn't seem to be the right forum for him, but I look forward to more of his writing and teaching.

[Ed Friedland]

Well, TBL may not have been the right forum for Jeff, I wonder if this one is. He's probably burnt out on the whole "forum" thing, but maybe I can get him to guest sometime for a live thing. I think we can set up live stuff here, I'll check. Anyway, I just communicated with Jeff yesterday concerning a piece I'm writing on music schools for BP and this is what he had to say about preparing for his school.

 

"Certainly I feel that going to a music school with reading skills is preferable instead of going with no skills in this area. But, since so many players have rejected written musical exercises, I don't wish to penalize them with an unimportant task such as preparing some kind of audition once they actually decide to come to The Players School to study written music. The only thing that is expected from our students is that they practice and show up to class. Period!

There's nothing else to do since the main responsiblity rests with us. It is our job to help them with their musical growth. I also do not expect anyone to "prepare" for our school. If they decide to enter into a course of study or practice for their own benefit before they get here, this is fine. But, they do not have to prepare for us since we should be preparing for them at whatever skill level that they bring."

[g.]

I read back through a few years of TBL digests (not every issue, not every post). It seems like the people that had the most trouble with Jeff Berlin were kind of stuck. Somehow he raised questions they didn't want to face.

 

So they made it a miserable place for him so that their universes could remain solid. I've enjoyed if-6-were-9 assertions and his obviously experience-won lessons. Some, I didn't agree with, but unlike so much of what else has been posted, they made a lasting impression by giving me some real perspective.

 

He didn't really care about the buy this bass and this amp shortcuts we are all tempted to believe in. Though I've been a gear-hording fiend in a past life, I really wouldn't want to be put onto a desert island with just a bass and my head empty of an abiding interest in theory and musical concepts.

 

 

<-- greenboy ---<<<<   call me old-fashioned

[bspangleyahoo.com]

I would think that going to Berlin's school or MI (or one of their cousins) would not provide a truly comprehensive music education or background. Based on his teaching and learning philosophies, 95% with which I agree, Berlin's school would probably be excellent preparation for going to college as a music major. Just as knowing some algebra and geometry is essential to learning higher math, knowing how to read, how to spell chords, and being able to hear and negotiate chord changes put you into a position to really learn music. Bill

[Ed Friedland]

My sense of Jeff's school is they take you wherever you're at, so if you go in at a very high level of understanding and proficiency, you're still going to learn, likewise if you're less experienced. I tell you, I wish BP would have sent ME down there for that week to research the article they did on Player's School! I'd be happy to have my butt kicked by Mr. Berlin, not to say it would always be comfortable... Whoever said you can't teach an old dog new tricks is full of it! Besides, I'm not that old of a dog! Life being what it is, I probably will never take the time or put aside the dough to go to a place like that, but you young guys....you must carry on....you're young and strong...I am old...and weak.... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[dansouth]

The reason that I included the word "controversial" in the title of this thread is because much of what I've learned from Mr. B. - and have subsequently found to be of great value - at first seemed contrary to everything that had been taught. Tips like slowing down to correct mistakes. Almost every teacher that I've ever had encouraged me to "play through mistakes," as if they were going to vaporized if I'd simply skid over them quickly enough. Likewise the idea of turning off the metronome, a device that's been celebrated in this very forum. I don't think it's wise to abandon the metronome altogether - I hope that's not what Jeff is suggesting, but it kind of sounded that way - but I was using it so much that it was becoming a crutch. It also didn't support the "slow down and fix mistakes" approach.

 

I'm very grateful that Mr. Berlin has had the courage to suffer the whips and scorns of naysayers. I've profited greatly from his advice. But I'm left to wonder why so much contrary information exists. What about you? Have you received bad advice from a teacher of colleague? How can proper practice methodologies become formalized and institutionalized so new players don't have to make a lot of stupid mistakes before stumbling across a wise sage like Jeff?

[Ed Friedland]

>>>But I'm left to wonder why so much contrary information exists. What about you? Have you received bad advice from a teacher of colleague? How can proper practice methodologies become formalized and institutionalized so new players don't have to make a lot of stupid mistakes before stumbling across a wise sage like Jeff?<<<

 

Sure, we've all probably recieved "bad info" at one point or another. I'm sure I've even given out "bad info" at some point in my teaching career. One thing about teachers, they tend to get better with experience, just like everyone else (we hope!).

 

When Jeff recommends slowing down for mistakes to clean them up, of course that makes sense, you need to get it into the hands correctly if you're ever going to play it right. However, in another context, I might suggest a student play through the mistakes. Let's say we're working on "real world" sight reading. On a gig, you may not hit everything perfectly, but you can't slow down or stop for your mistakes. It's just as important to be able to keep your momentum through the chart mistakes and all. Ideally we will all play everything perfectly everytime, but until then it's important for an aspiring pro player to learn how to cover their butt and keep moving. So, while this is seemingly contradictory information, when taken in context who is right? Both of us!

 

Right and wrong is too simple of an idea to encompass something as vast as music. There are effective and ineffective practices, but these vary with indivdual situations and players. I'd say there are certain universal laws to good bass playing, like having a good feel, playing the best notes, having enough facility to meet the demands of the music and being appropriate to the style and function of the situation. These are all pretty general, and to say there is only one way to acheive these goals doesn't make sense to me. I think the key is to stay open to many viewpoints.

 

If you've ever seen Gary Karr (great classical virtuoso bassist) play, you'd see that he has an unorthodox appraoch to the instrument. Most teachers would instantly correct any student coming in with his method, but who would say it's wrong after hearing this amazing player? I might discourage a student from playing with their thumb hanging over the top of the neck, but then watch Louis Johnson or Larry Graham play, are they wrong? Am I going to tell them? No way.

 

That's my take on it.

[bspangleyahoo.com]

I saw Gary Karr about 25 years ago in Charleston WVa. I remember him using a German bow and both "extended" and "Simandl" fingerings in the lower positions. In the thumb positions, however, it did look strange. It was hard to see where the notes were coming from!!!

 

I kind of disagree with allowing inexperienced players to decide what their left hand positions should be. "Proper" technique may prevent injury and allows the student to eventually place his fingers where the notes from a piece of sheet music are without looking at his neck. As I've mentioned before in this forum, I'm not aware of an electric bass method book that does a great job in systematically making the neck familiar to a student the way, let's say, violin methods do.

 

All my formal training was on the upright, and to this day, I'm better at sight reading on the big bass. I improved in this regard on the electric quite a bit by doing something that J Berlin also advocates; work on a piece in slow motion and perfect it then move to another piece and repeat. I can now shift accurately on the small bass. Accurately shifting is stressed very much and very soon with the orchestral instruments. It's been a few years since I've taught bass privately, but I looked for a method book that I could use with my intermediate students to help them read beyond the 5th fret. I ended up zeroxing trombone etudes for them. Then we worked on finding the notes at places that were near where their hand was. If they had been brought up the same way a cellist or bassist would be, much of this would have already been automatic.

[Ed Friedland]

I'm not advocating letting inexperienced players decide what's right technically. I teach "proper" technique to all of my students. Your point about poor technique being potentially injurous is something I defintiely accentuate. I also mention to them that many great players can be caught playing with "bad" technique. Technique needs to be flexible and adjust to the demands of the music. When I play a blues gig, I let my thumb pop up over the neck, sure it's sloppy, but not only is it relaxing, it helps me create the authentic slop factor inherent in good blues. I don't teach them how to do that (they already know how) but I don't think it's wise to rule anything out completely. If I'm playing Bach Cello Suites, my hands know what to do. They adjust automatically to the demands of the music. Technique can be fluid, not static. So, we train with the "right" stuff and allow for the "wrong" stuff when it's applicable. And it IS applicable sometimes.

 

From the sound of it, I think maybe I should get started writing this book you haven't been able to find!

[bspangleyahoo.com]

Unless things have changed in the last several years, I think there is a need for a method. I had a fretless student several years ago and we worked out of Steve Bailey's book. Though it's not for a beginner, I really didn't think that it really presented the neck in a systematic manner. It was more of a collection of tricky exercises. To learn fretless, it helps if your fingers are near to where you want them. "Muscle memory" is important!! Likewise, I haven't seen an electric bass method that is the equivalent of the Simandl books for double bass. I know it's old fashioned, but, if you study out of his book he moves you up the neck, has you play exercises (some of which are fairly musical and many emphasize chord tones) that connect the new position with positions previously learned. Even though the 1-2-4 system has fallen out of favor to a certain degree, at least there is a system!!! If you could write a great method, I could consider private teaching again. I really don't have time to generate my own materials. I think if you examine what's available, I think you may come to a similar conclusion about the state of electric bass methods. Thanks.

[Ed Friedland]

Well, I have examined alot of what's out there in the bass literature and I do agree with your opinion. There are some exceptions, for instance, Dale Titus' beginner method struck me as particularly well concieved and executed. If I didn't have my own program for newbies, I'd use his.

 

This is tricky ground for me because I don't want to come off like a know-it-all type, but many of the books I see out there are not clear, or poorly organized, or educationally suspect. That's part of why I started writing my own, to fill a void. The way I learned to do it was by going to school. My first book was my thesis for my M.Ed. I took a weekly seminar that helped me learn the process of selecting, organizing, clarifying and presenting material. I couldn't have done it without that training. Maybe others could, there are good books out there by guys that didn't go to school.

 

Well, at this point I don't have a plan to do another book, but your idea has been noted, and I'll be thinking about it. I'd like to write my own beginner method, but there are so many out there that most publishers feel they have that end of their market covered. So, it may take a while to formulate an idea strong enough to get someone interested in it.

[brianrost]

I have a MelBay method book from the late 70s that is now out of print. It was by Earl Gately and like Simandl took the student through positions, with scale and melodic excerpt exercises in each position. Second half of the book was chordal studies.

 

I see there is a current book by Gately called "Complete Jazz Bass" that according to the MelBay online catalog includes the following:

 

"It begins with the teaching of the basics using illustrations of hand positions, basic theory, the first position, how to read music, fingering, accelerated fingerboard studies, a fingerboard note location chart to the 12th fret, the second through seventeenth position (etc.)"

[dude_dup3]

I mostly study the Motley Crue Bass Tab series myself.

[dude_dup3]

Hey!! I was kidding guys (well...sort of anyway). I didn't mean to kill the thread!