Anifa Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 Removed!! This double posted when I edited the original. You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man. Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anifa Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 We're kind of getting off of the subject of "bags" here, but it seems to me that we have a typical case of the guy who wants to play the entire symphonME or he wants to be the latest new phenomenon in a three man band called "Me, Myself, and I." I've got a good friend of mine that is an incredible pianist with the potential of great success, but she wants to be the SINGER; the fact that she is a world class pianist is insignificant to her. I've known her professionally for nearly three years and have watched her spend tons of money on effects units and programs to assist her in her movement towards success; as her husband is an accomplished Doctor,he can afford her toys and luxuries to help her pursue her dreams. She joined TAXI, she has hired vocal coaches to work with her, she has bought top of the line mics, she hired acoustic designers and engineers to come into her studio to get maximum sound quality and still she is lacking one thing... A Good Singer. The truth is SHE CAN'T SING although she is an incredible writer and pianist. It pains me to watch these sharks inside of the business sit back and take her money left and right, giving her just enough encouragement to keep her paying their tab, every time it boils back to the "production" of her vocals... "Production" Hell, they aren't going to tell her that she can't sing because she's helping to pay their rent. I've tried to drop subtle hints by suggesting that she maybe team up with a vocalist; to no avail. I decided to back away after she took offense to my input; it wasn't worth risking a good friendship over and I told her that I had only suggested it as a friend tired of watching her get taken by sharks. In my opinion, when one is TOO possessive with their materials it sometimes limits their chances of discovery for the true talent that they have. I view music as much of a business as I do an art; I have not invested thousands of dollars in equipment to sit in a closet and Master-Bait... If I produce a MASTER that sucks, what have I got as BAIT to lure in interest from the Labels? If I am not congenial enough to admit my weaknesses, because I'm afraid I might not get to be in the spotlight, then I keep my talents hidden rather than finding the missing piece that makes me whole and capable of success; I get the whole pie to myself that nobody else gets a chance to taste. Myself, I'd rather have a little tiny slice of something really big than a WHOLE pie of NOTHING. You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man. Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted June 18, 2002 Author Share Posted June 18, 2002 Your last sentence completely sums it up for me, Anifa. Better to have even a small piece of something really big than a whole pie full of nothing. Besides...the writer gets the royalties. Master-bait...hahaha "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anifa Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 Originally posted by Retsdet: Your last sentence completely sums it up for me, Anifa. Better to have even a small piece of something really big than a whole pie full of nothing. Besides...the writer gets the royalties. Master-bait...hahaha Yep, them dat don't wanna divvi up can set in a little dark corner and do it all alone.... Sumtimes ya gotta get yo'self out in da open to GET EXPOSED; and sumtimes ya GOTTA get yo'self a GOOD PARTNER to be able to feel the vibe and sumtimes, the pie tastes even better when someone else feeds it to you! You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man. Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 about bags...i can write a song and have it arranged in any style. Sometimes it sounds better the original way it came out, lets say as a bluesey thing, or change the chords and it feels jazzy, or put some distortion on the guitar and it sounds like rock. Now I seem to take little pieces of all of those and put them together. But I think a good song is a good song, and can translate into many genres. A Bag seems to be more in the producing and arranging part. --alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 anifa- Your point is well taken but it`s more `all or nothing` than what I was talking about. I was talking about songs written in a STYLE that is more suitable for a different kind of voice. You`re talking about someone who can`t sing. There are a ton of succesful performers who are not particularly good singers (Bruce Springsteen, Dave Matthews etc.), but their style of music doesn`t require a Pavarotti, either. Besides, if you`re lucky an entirely different BAND may want to do your song. I think Alien Ant Farm`s `Smooth Criminal` is better than the original. Anyway, it`s not an ego thing cause we`re just talking about vocals. As soon as you ask someone to play another instrument, produce, etc., it becomes a team effort. Anyone who ignores that is a jerk, and does so at their own peril. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anifa Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Originally posted by skip: anifa- Your point is well taken but it`s more `all or nothing` than what I was talking about. I was talking about songs written in a STYLE that is more suitable for a different kind of voice. You`re talking about someone who can`t sing. There are a ton of succesful performers who are not particularly good singers (Bruce Springsteen, Dave Matthews etc.), but their style of music doesn`t require a Pavarotti, either. Besides, if you`re lucky an entirely different BAND may want to do your song. I think Alien Ant Farm`s `Smooth Criminal` is better than the original. Anyway, it`s not an ego thing cause we`re just talking about vocals. As soon as you ask someone to play another instrument, produce, etc., it becomes a team effort. Anyone who ignores that is a jerk, and does so at their own peril.Skip, Actually, VOICE is considered an instrument and when that instrument is the key element required to deliver the song as it was intended to be showcased; well... maybe team effort isn't out of the question. You obviously have a lack of respect for GREAT vocalists for you to use the phrase it`s not an ego thing cause we`re just talking about vocals. Perhaps you should humble yourself a few notches and recognize VOICE as one of the finest tuned instruments that has it's own exclusive and unique performance... NO TWO voices will ever be identical and some may never have competitors that can even come close. The fact that mediocre vocals will suffice to get the show on the road does not excuse the fact that a quality performance delivered by a superior vocalist will steal the show every time. I give credit back to you as I was not suggesting that you were a bad singer; that was not my implication. If you are writing materials that are NOT your style, perhaps to branch out on your versatily in writing styles; then you should be prepared to allow that part of yourself to be separated as such and take pride that you are the genius behind the written music scores that are simply being PERFORMED by a great vocalist. Be yourself in what you perform, and take pride in that which you prepared for higher expectations... If you were going to feel bad that someone else made a song sound better than what you could possible accomplish; what was your purpose for writing such a complex material? Was it a challenge to see if you could do it, or was it something that was discovered by accident? If you wrote the piece as a challenge to yourself; then accept it as a feat accomplished when you hear a superior performance. It should give you comfort in knowing that you were the mastermind that made it possible. There are MANY popular songwriter/artists that are not only Performers of their own materials; but they have written songs for other artists. Barry Manilow, Neil Diamond, Elton John, Randy Neumann, and a multitude of others. The fact that one can be a star performer themself should not limit the markets on their songwriting talents that cater to styles not of their own. As performers tend to get stuck in "bags" as they rise to stardom; for a Pop Star to perform a Boot Kicking Country song would almost be unheard of, or any drastic genre swing might blemish their career. If any ONE performer to ever try to perform ALL of my materials that I have written over time; people would think they were skitzo. It is good to allow yourself the room to expand into new and unrelated territories, it broadens you outlook and grows your levels in expertise; but do not feel that, if YOU wrote it that YOU have to include it in your line up. If you do wish to include it, then TOW the instrument that's required to delived it; pay the singer. You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man. Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 anifa- If anyone`s going to talk to me about humility they better be well prepared, because I am unsurpassed, unparalleled and unassailable when it comes to humility. In fact, after I came to Japan, a group of my ex-bandmates got together with a name that fits them perfectly-the Masters of Humility. I taught them everything they know. But seriously, you misinterpreted the phrase you printed in bold. I didn`t at all mean `just vocals` in the sense that they aren`t important. You said that you saw a case of someone wanting to do EVERY ELEMENT of the music themselves, and I say to that, not so, we are talking about the vocal performance ONLY, not a one-man band. As far as writing songs that are just as a `challenge`, you know, I wouldn`t even know how to do that. All the songs I`ve written (getting close to the 100 mark including a few instrumentals), have been from my own creative impetus, they`ve all been songs I HAD to write. After that, the performance is another phase. Actually, one of my early recordings has another vocalist, and I just play guitar and bass. If it wasn`t for the crappy drums it would be on my demo and I would love to do it over with the same singer. I mean, let`s be clear here. I wouldn`t and haven`t ruled out what you`re saying-no one`s come knocking on my door saying that Joe Pop Sensation wants your song for his next album and I slam the door in their face...I`m just saying that I see performance as my strong point, and my experience playing live seems to bear that out. I wouldn`t mind writing a song that someone else makes famous, I just wouldn`t want that to happen instead of being out there myself. Heck, it`s a measure of talent, if anything, to write across a wider range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anifa Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Skip, There was not a mention of humility in my last post; you must be confusing the word "Humble." Perhaps you should look up the difference in their meaning. Anyway, I'm not here to continue this MISINTERPRETATION. You're original lead on this was in asking .......... opinions and advice has been offered; do with it what you may. I would estimate your age to be between 18 and 23 years old... perhaps when your hit your 40's you will have learned what constructive criticism is. This is wasted energy, and I have far too many important things awaiting. You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man. Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Being critical is constructive, yes. Being insulting is not. Sorry, but you did misinterpret my meaning, I pointed it out, end of story. In any case, good luck in all your important ventures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 by the way anifa, I took your advice. Webster`s dictionary lists `humility` (dated from 14th c.) as `the quality or state of being humble`. But you`re probably not reading this, so who am I talking to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anifa Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Yes, I did read this.... Okay, so you caught me on this one... Humility used as a noun is defined as: Date: 14th century : the quality or state of being humble You capitalized here on the word "humble" and ignored the "state of being" used in conjunction with the word "humble" to arrive at the definition offered. The act of humility as in "humiliation" is defined as follows: Webster's Dictionary, Date: circa 1534 : to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes To humble one's self is as follows: Date: 13th century 1 : not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive 2 : reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission The context in which you utilized the word humility because I am unsurpassed, unparalleled and unassailable when it comes to humility is completely contradictory to the word humble. Anyway, Skip, if you think that anything that I have offered has been insulting rather than constructive... you are in for an extremely RUDE awakening if you ever intend to make it to the big times. I'm a pussy cat. I'm not exactly Mother Mary, but if you think that I'm insulting you'd better find a suit of Armor before you try to go Pro. You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man. Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dak Lander Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 God Damn Skip, I'd leave well enough alone. I have a lot of respect for you and one hell of a lot of respect for Ani'Fa too. What I've seen in this thread has not been enough to torque my jaws, had I been involved, but maybe it's too personal to you. I haven't seen anything that would directly slam anything you've put out, nor have I seen anything to, really, that you've said that should cause an explosion. Let's all of us, sit back, count to, oh, about a hundred million, & then remark as to what's really going on in this thread. Just my views folks & I'll stand up to them. I think both of you have very valid points. YOU have to determine, individually, what is best for YOU. That's, in essence, what it's all about. Peace, Y'all... Our Joint "When you come slam bang up against trouble, it never looks half as bad if you face up to it." The Duke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Dak Lander I couldn`t have said it better, sir knight. I suggest we call it a draw and return this thread to its original upright position. anifa, I`d be interested in hearing your take on the `how prolific are you?` thread over at the guitar forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitefang Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 WOWWW! I'm glad to see I'M not the only one to get into these high falutin'-big wordy-pissing contest arguements! d would have you all believing I'M the only one to misinterpret and misquote! Au contraire! Enough of that crap. I'd like to interject the thought that some singer/songwriters have ALWAYS stunk in the vocals department, but have managed to write songs that not only fit well with their off-key offerings, but lose nothing in the translation when handled by a worthy warbler! Anifa mentioned Randy Newman. Sings almost as bad as I do! Bob Dylan is THE perfect example of this. I have NO idea what's happened to his voice lately. Went from bad to worse! But who cared, after hearing the SONGS? On "Love and Death", he sounds as if he's gargled broken glass, but it's such a GOOD CD! At least, I think so! And any of those tunes, handled by a much better vocalist, would Still come across. But there are limits to THIS as well. Bonnie Raitt handling those Dylan tunes would work much better than, say, Leyontene Price!(sic) Pavorotti shouldn't cover the Chili Peppers, not if he wanted to be valid; and Lyle Lovett might do well to avoid "La Boheme". But I hope you get my drift? Whitefang I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip_dup1 Posted June 23, 2002 Share Posted June 23, 2002 whitefang- got it. Thanks for adding your riffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumpjunky Posted June 23, 2002 Share Posted June 23, 2002 the way i write songs is concentrating on the mood i am in;or the past moods i have previously been in. and usually that works for me...and if i am having trouble completing a thought..i have my lead guitarist/bestfriend right there to help me out.but i can understand we're not always going to have a bandmate there to help us channel our thoughts and emotions down onto paper...so the best advice i can give is to write for yourself...not for your genre...not for your other bandmates...just for yourself,and then i believe everything will turn out alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george costanza Posted June 24, 2002 Share Posted June 24, 2002 Sometimes my favorite parts of these forums are the OT DIScussions ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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