SkiNNY MulLIGan Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 is it me, or do most bridges sound like they were put in just because someone says "this song needs a bridge", and to me, most of them ruin a song...now, i know we all can all name a bunch of songs with good bridges, and let's keep Lennon and Mcartney out of this, because...well...because they're Lennon and MacCartney...but i don't know how many times i'm listening to some pop tune on the radio and sure enough, after the second chorus the song takes off into some part that has nothing to do with the rest of the song, and sounds like it was put in because some record company guy walked into the studio while the band was recording and said..."um, good song guys, but if you want me to get this on the radio for you, you're going to need a middle 6" (i know it's middle 8, but i'm trying to do my record company guy impression)...now, i'm talking about real bridges, as in: VERSE/CHORUS/VERSE/CHORUS/BRIDGE...i'm not talking about the B part of a verse that leads into the chorus, alot of people will call that a bridge, but it's not...there are some great ones..."life is very short..." in "We can work it out" is a classic...but most of them kill a song IMHO...am i wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudden Light Project Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Actually, the "B" part of the verse, is called a lift, build, or prechorus...but you are right, everybody calls it the bridge. And I agree. It's like the only progression that people know to use for the bridge, is the relative minor..why bother, if it isn't something new and fresh. I was listening to the police the other day, and sting did this thing I will call the bridge, where it starts in the verse chord, with the same melody, and then takes off in a new direction...very clever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhouse Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Mine are killer. later, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiNNY MulLIGan Posted April 14, 2002 Author Share Posted April 14, 2002 of course mike...i meant all bridges but yours suck... and i'm sure you got great hair, too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 It's a sad thing that so many songwriters feel compelled to deliver a track that fits the "formula" of a pop song. I recall presenting my song "Once Upon A Dream" to a bunch of guys I was jamming with at the time - the structure of the song went Intro (verse) Verse1 Verse2 Bridge Intrumental break Verse3 Outtro (verse) And has a very logical continuity in both lyric and song structure. First thing the drummer said was "yeah, that'll be pretty good once we get a chorus into it" A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiNNY MulLIGan Posted April 14, 2002 Author Share Posted April 14, 2002 scott...i know what you mean...just tell him that "Yesterday"..."Every breath you take"..."With or without you"...and countless other classics don't have a chorus...some of the most memorable songs are simply A and B songs...anyway, what's a drummer doing even getting into a songwriting debate anyway, that should be left to musicians...signed phil collins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Sad part is that the song in question has a very blues-oriented verse structure - there's really no need for a chorus. Verse in detail: vi7 - II9 vi7 - II9 vi7 - II9 vi7 - II9 vi7 - II9 vi7 - V7 - IV - ii - III7 the turnaround just leads very naturally back into the verse. It would be stupid to add a chorus and interrupt that natural flow A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Most bridges suck: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may98/892678504.Eg.2.gif "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowly Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Originally posted by Tedster: Most bridges suck: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may98/892678504.Eg.2.gifHey, that`s the bridge that made us famous. What`s a bridge, chorus, verse anyway. I write the lead singer part, a background singers part, and then a piece to get back to the lead. Whats what?. Kcbass "Let It Be!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 I've been lurking on this thread for a minute. Mainly due to the fact of my vascillating on whether to put a bridge in the song I just posted, "By June." This subject has kicked me in the ass a lot in my writing. And for clarity sake, I'm not just talking about bridges I'm talking about contrast. I am one of those natural flow kind of people. I like a song to flow. "With or With Out You" is arguably my favorite song in the world, and is definitely the reason why I play a Rock type of music. Can you see where I'm going? I like consistent grooves, and when I'm writing sometimes when I try to put something for contrast sake like a bridge or breakdown or something, it comes off so artificial. I believe that my songs could use some contrast, but I'm desperately trying to find a way to have contrast, and it stills sounds natural, honest, flowing, and not contrived. I was thinking of getting with a collaborator to kind of touch up my work, like a Glen Ballard type of producer or something. Unfortunately, none of my close friends can really get into my music. Most of them are on the neo-soul tip, and are far removed from anybody sounding like U2, Nirvana, Afghan Whigs,etc. I'm thinking there has to be other ways of bringing contrast, and at the same time not bring the typical contrast formala(read Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Outro). Natural Contrast? Is there such a thing? Namaste Jedi "All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence." The Buddha's Last Words R.I.P. RobT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Hmm. I like to think I'm good at writing bridges, including knowing when I don't need one. I don't believe a bridge should be thrown in there just to have "something that doesn't sound like the rest of the song". Contrast, like jedi says. There are lots of ways to achieve that. Dynamic changes are one way that works pretty well. Most people don't take advantage of subtle dynamic changes because so many of today's records have no dynamic range at all. You might argue that dynamics are a function of the performance/production not the songwriter, which may be true, but as a songwriter I try to imagine the finished product as I'm writing. It's cool when you hear a song that sounds great no matter how bare-bones it's performed and arranged, but not all great songs are like that. MANY really great songs are totally dependent on the arrangement and performance to make them great. That's why I prefer to write within the context of a band. So by repeating a part but using different dynamics and/or instrumentation you can definitely change up a song without losing the flow. Having an instrumental breakdown or hook can be cool too. Think of Tom Petty's song "Breakdown" - big hit, very memorable classic song, no bridge - but several instrumental hooks including the signature guitar riff. Also, if you do write a bridge, the bridge doesn't HAVE to break up the flow. It can be melodically different but still have the same rhythm. Another thing I like to do is write a bridge (or a B section or breakdown or whatever) where the rhythm is different but still consistent and "plays off" the rhythm of the rest of the song. In other words play the rhythm of the song and then imagine counter-rhythms going on on top of it, and write the bridge to that. I did this with my song "For Love Or Money" which is on our web site, and if I say so myself I consider that a very successful bridge. It took me a long time to write it, too. Our bass player actually came up with the chords for the bridge but he originally played it in the same rhythm as the rest of the song. I wanted something to really break it up without losing the drive. So I started thinking of some things that sounded rhythmically similar but not exactly - and songs that came to mind were "California Man" by Cheap Trick, the Ramones' "Hey Ho Let's Go", and even (I'm ashamed to admit) "Saturday Night" by the Bay City Rollers. I envisioned that kind of rhythm and started playing the chords to that, and then I had it. In any case I agree with the original statement that many bridges do suck, and it's usually because ALL they're doing is providing contrast. The purpose of a bridge IMO is to "lift" the song to another level, whereas many sucky bridges seem to just meander and break up the flow and not go anywhere. If the bridge doesn't make the song lift off, I'd say keep working on it or leave it out altogether. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolhouse Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Originally posted by rammer24: ...i'm sure you got great hair, too...Really?(fluffing hair in back) Do you think so? You're not just saying that are you? Seriously,Lee's point is well taken. Also,it can be necessary to cap off the lyrics as well. If you perceive a need for a bridge,by all means write one. If you hear from more than one person whose opinion you respect that your song needs a bridge you should probably consider their advice. later, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anifa Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 I don't write bridges in a lot of my songs, but occassionally I will add a bridge where something needs to be said in the song to deliver a message that pulls the whole song together. If a song is well written, just to throw a bridge in for the sake of having a bridge is not always the best resolve. Bridges must fit the rest of the content in a song whether it be in the music contrast or the lyrical message being delivered. You can take the man away from his music, but you can't take the music out of the man. Books by Craig Anderton through Amazon Sweetwater: Bruce Swedien\'s "Make Mine Music" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudeep Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 i was reading some songwriting book and it talked about writing bridges. It described a scene in Beavis and Butthead, where they are sitting watching MTV, and beavis goes "this song rules", then the bridge comes on and Butthead says "this part of the song SUX...Beavis in all his wisdom replies "well if the song DIDNT have the bit that SUCKED in it, then it wouldnt RULE so much!!!" Food for thought? WHen i did a few songwriting courses they were VERY bit contrast, whether it be bridges, dynamics, different instruments, different rhyming patterns...somthing...ANYTHING!!! i personally think there are a few songs out there with great/catchy lines just repeated, and by the time youve heard the same hook 14 times in row your like..ok IM OVER IT NOW!!! personally i think every breathe you take has a great bridge...but is that a bridge? numbers from musicals have nice bridges and they always lead somewhere...maybe a different key...maybe a different theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiNNY MulLIGan Posted April 15, 2002 Author Share Posted April 15, 2002 sudeep...you're right, there are a lot of songs with good bridges, and neccassary ones, too...but there are too many with throw in bridges that make a shit song shittier, or a good song not so good...the thing about a bridge is that it shouldn't be there simply because you've heard the same hook 14 times and you're dying for a change...that's the exact example of why alot of bridges get put in where they don't belong, instead of taking the time to make the arrangement more interesting...the interesting thing about "Every breath you take" is that not only does it not have a bridge, it doesn't even have a chorus... it's more like ABAC... A: "Every breath you take B: "Oh can't you see" A: "Every single day" C: "Since you're gone..." i find some of the most memorable songs are AB type songs, as opposed to verse,chorus, bridge, etc... the beatles have many non "chorus" songs...as a side note;another interesting thing about "Every breath"...(you brought it up,not me), is that he only says "Every Breath You Take" once in the song, in the opening line and that's it...that line is never sung again...pretty cool... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Keelan Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Originally posted by rammer24: A: "Every breath you take B: "Oh can't you see" A: "Every single day" C: "Since you're gone..." ...but, but... isn't C a bridge? bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Yeah, I was gonna say... that part ("since you're gone...") sure sounds like a bridge to me! --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiNNY MulLIGan Posted April 15, 2002 Author Share Posted April 15, 2002 the "C" part does sound like a bridge, and i guess you could call it that, but, technically,it's not...i know i'm nitpicking,because if someone said "sing the bridge to Every breath you take", that's the part most of us would sing...anyway, what part would you call the chorus, in that case?...that's not really the point, if it is a bridge, it's an example of a very good one that lifts the song the way a good bridge should...very rare... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 Right. I think that song is an example of a song with a good bridge, and no chorus. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Keelan Posted April 15, 2002 Share Posted April 15, 2002 I would guess you could call the B part a chorus although to me it really isn't a chorus in the classic sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylver Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I think a bridge can really be any musical oor lyrical idea that doesn't sound like the verse. That said, I hate bridges that are in the traditional relative minor. I like doing things a little differently. I really don't know what to put here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Can I take it to the bridge? "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by Rog: Can I take it to the bridge?"Where's that confounded bridge?" I don't know if people put in bridges JUST because someone says "this song needs a bridge"...but it may be that many songs get to certain point and they just sit there... ...so, the songwriter(s) look towards a bridge to take them across to the other side (hehehe)...and the problem may be that not as much time is spent on creating the bridge as was spent on the body of the tune...so...the bridge SUCKS. I have a few tunes that actually began with the bridge...and everything else followed. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiNNY MulLIGan Posted April 18, 2002 Author Share Posted April 18, 2002 miroslov, your last sentence is very interesting...the songs you wrote that actually started with a bridge, did you know they were bridges when you came up with them or did you come up with a piece of music that you liked and eventually it just became the bridge? i was actually thinking of writing in one of my posts that nobody actually comes up with a bridge first, so i guess i stand corrected...ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dstagl Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 My $.02. Firstly, I must disagree with something said earlier. I feel/think/get the vibe that With or Without You most definitely has a chorus, and I'm sure it could be debated for hours and hours and.... When I first started writing songs I had a lot of stuff without "choruses" or refrains or whatever you want to call it. I'll call it the same lyrics sung with the same melody over the same chord structure. I had long verses and I had "choruses" with different lyrics, bridges, multiple bridges, pre-choruses, sheep, etc, etc. As I started performing more I started getting feedback from people that they would like to hear more of a chorus. I see nothing wrong with breaking formulas and structures, but sometimes I think you need to think about your audience if that's a factor. Some people just write, but my guess is a lot of people who write are looking for more than just sitting in their bedroom, penning a song, and just leaving it. Maybe, maybe not. Anyways I think structures and formulas exist for a reason, and they're not always a bad thing to have. I think when it comes to rock and roll and pop songs, people want to sing along. If you have a chorus, it oftentimes makes it easier for the audience I think. Of course there are plenty of exceptions to this, just look at Five for Fighting's recent hit "Superman". When I'm writing I just try and make complete thoughts whether its lyrics, music, or both. I try and make it flow out as one, and then maybe I'll go back and tweak here and there. Sometimes you succeed and sometimes you fail. Another thing I think is there has to be a reason for the song in the first place. I don't know that a lot of people can just write for the sake of writing and pull it off. I've got a couple work-in-progress songs from my upcoming record up that you can check out featuring bridges and altered choruses. These are missing little pieces here and there, but I think you'll get the gist . "Only One Home" uses the same chord structure throughout except for the......BRIDGE. "Tags" features alternate lyrics in the choruses. This version of "Tags" isn't going to be on the record, but I think I'll still finish it for the web or a B-side(a what?) or something. You can find them at: http://www.diveproductions.com/songs If you want to hear more, head to my website at http://www.theburningdaylight.com. Check out "Mary" under the MP3 section which features verse, pre-choruses, choruses, and a bridge. There's another tune up there called "Better in the Morning" in which I play around with a longer verse, breaks, etc. Let me know what you think. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Originally posted by rammer24: miroslav, your last sentence is very interesting...the songs you wrote that actually started with a bridge, did you know they were bridges when you came up with them or did you come up with a piece of music that you liked and eventually it just became the bridge? i was actually thinking of writing in one of my posts that nobody actually comes up with a bridge first, so i guess i stand corrected...rayLet me expand... I didn't mean I actually "started " some songs with JUST the bridge. I had some general melody/chord/concept in my head…but the first part that actually got created/finished was the bridge...usually because the lyrics for the bridge just popped out first…that's what I meant. So technically I had some basic "pre-bridge" ideas...but the bridge ended up being the first "part" that was completed…and then working "backwards"...the rest of the song took shape. I don't think this is uncommon in song writing ...and not just with bridges... miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiNNY MulLIGan Posted April 19, 2002 Author Share Posted April 19, 2002 Dave, Miroslov, and everyone else that posted here: thank you,this was educational, and i did truly learn alot...when i started this post,it really was because a friend of mine, who isn't a musician or a song writer or anything but a music lover, made a comment along the lines of, "i like this song, but that middle part they put in ruins it" (he didn't even know it was a bridge, just some part he didn't like)...and then it made me start noticing that alot of (but certainly not all)songs don't need the bridge they have and would probably be better without them...but most of the comments in this thread are intelligent and made sense...and i did get some insight into how other people go about creating and hearing music...so thank you everybody ray P.S. But i still think that most bridges SUCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudeep Posted April 19, 2002 Share Posted April 19, 2002 Originally posted by rammer24: .as a side note;another interesting thing about "Every breath"...(you brought it up,not me), is that he only says "Every Breath You Take" once in the song, in the opening line and that's it...that line is never sung again...pretty cool...no problem...i love the song...one of my favs...love reading stories about how it came about...did you hear the one about stings ex wife being asked whether she thought sting wrote that about her? apparently she replied "its a sick, disgusting, scary song...and if it was written about me im getting a restraining order against sting!!!!" so the story goes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shikawkee Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 Or as Tom Petty says: "If your middle eight isn't as good as your chorus, drop it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coxnvox Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Or as Morrissey says: "Ah! You have loads of songs, so many songs, more songs than they can stand...verse, chorus, middle 8, break, fade... Just listen! La-lalala-la, lalala-la" etc. ("We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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