Nailing Timing Problems

[swifty]

Any tips on sequencing and how to get the problem of timing nailed?! It seems to me sometimes as if the whole tune, drums, guitar, bass etc, are in time together, but then a few days later listening to it some parts drag. Any theories? (besides better playing!! which of course would help, but i am a professional musician, its not that i dont have a clue what i'm doing - i mean, it must have something to do with techniques in the studio) Maybe this is not the place for these questions, i just wanted to say that i think you are doing a wonderful job. Any tips would of course be appreciated. Thanks. >>

[b_3guy]

What software are you using? Digital Performer comes with a file to line everything up. Basically its audio snare hit that plays over & over again. You match up your midi'd snare hit to it by delaying your audio playback. Once this is accomplished, you then record your midi'd snare hit to audio & see if it lines up with everything. If it doesn't you adjust it according. A bit if trial & error, but it does get alined eventually. I've also experienced a timing problem that once I rebooted, it went away.

[AmadMozart]

[quote]Originally posted by swifty: [b]Any tips on sequencing and how to get the problem of timing nailed?! It seems to me sometimes as if the whole tune, drums, guitar, bass etc, are in time together, but then a few days later listening to it some parts drag. Any theories? (besides better playing!! which of course would help, but i am a professional musician, its not that i dont have a clue what i'm doing - i mean, it must have something to do with techniques in the studio) Maybe this is not the place for these questions, i just wanted to say that i think you are doing a wonderful job. Any tips would of course be appreciated. Thanks. >>[/b][/quote] The good news is that you aren't the problem - the problem is midi slop. On average you are going to get somewhere between 5 -10 ms of midi slop - and this is going to be most noticeable on percussion tracks. So each playback of your midi sequence varies - even if ever so slightly from the last playback. On Roger Nichols forum - if you search under midi slop - you will find a lot of his comments on this - but basically I picked up a good fix from Roger. What I do now for my drum sequences is track the midi drums and put them into DP - doesn't really matter how you do this as long as you are synchornized somehow. I bring each piece of the kit in on a different track and then I use Strip Silence so I can individual move around each hit (cut and paste into a new track works fine for this also). Then I look at the midi sequence to see where a particular hit is supposed to occur and I move the wave form to that location. This may seem painstaking - but if the sequence is a loop you only need to do this once. I hope this was semi-literate - my mind is not working well today. Cheers, Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html

[NKF]

swifty wrote: >>>Any tips on sequencing and how to get the problem of timing nailed?!<<< I know it sounds too simple but that's what I suggest: spreading the notes over many MIDI ports. Don't trust the voice monsters with only one or two MIDI inputs to stay in time. IMO a lot of MIDI problems can be tracked down trying to squeeze to many data thru a few MIDI ports. Of course others will suggest other solutions like printing to audio or VST instruments. But there is nothing that can substitute a flexible, complex MIDI setup for larger arrangements. Sometimes some modules have bad MIDI response time which cannot been corrected because the CPU handling the voicing is underpowered. Nirto Karsten Fischer

[AmadMozart]

[quote]Originally posted by NKF: [b]swifty wrote: >>>Any tips on sequencing and how to get the problem of timing nailed?!<<< I know it sounds too simple but that's what I suggest: spreading the notes over many MIDI ports. Don't trust the voice monsters with only one or two MIDI inputs to stay in time. IMO a lot of MIDI problems can be tracked down trying to squeeze to many data thru a few MIDI ports. Of course others will suggest other solutions like printing to audio or VST instruments. But there is nothing that can substitute a flexible, complex MIDI setup for larger arrangements. Sometimes some modules have bad MIDI response time which cannot been corrected because the CPU handling the voicing is underpowered. Nirto Karsten Fischer[/b][/quote] Better midi boxes will definitely help with midi timing issues - but they will not solve them or make them go away. I have in my setup an Opcode Studio 5, and a MOTU MidiExpress XT USB which has the midi time stamping. These help, but doesn't eliminate midi slop - and on things like drum tracks, if you want the timing to be just so - each and every time you replay it - the only guarantee it is to track to audio - and move the hits where you want them. Then they don't move at all with respect to the rest of the audio and you are done. If there is another way to guarantee this timing accuracy - I don't know what it is - because editing like this is a pain - but it works, every time. Cheers, Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html

[Anderton]

Also remember that using lots of channels in a multi-timbral instrument can be problematic. The less data you force an instrument to handle, the better. Another tip: many times sequencers default to recording aftertouch. If your keyboard generates it, you may be recording zillions of MIDI messages that you don't even need, thus exacerbating any MIDI problems. Try editing out aftertouch from all tracks, even if you don't think there is any, and see what happens.

[NKF]

AmadMozart wrote: >>>Better midi boxes will definitely help with midi timing issues - but they will not solve them or make them go away.<<< Of course MIDI timing issues (whatever this means exactly) cannot been 'cured'. But I think they can be reduced to a workable minimum. Good MIDI interfaces help (I use three Studio 5LX and three AMT8) but balancing the data did the trick for me since years and still does. Often I use the MPC2000 for very tight stuff and print it as audio if I don't get MIDI working right timing-wise. The goal is to minimize the deviations in time of MIDI signals to a practical and non-disturbing value. MIDI is IMO not as bad as a lot of people think - mostly it's a problem with the bad response of modules combined with data overload. But I aggree that sometimes MIDI doesn't cut it and I have to use and arrange audio snips (in PT and LogicAudio). Often I transfer back audio tracks with processing into my samplers for easy arranging. MIDI often helps to try out ideas more intuitively. At least for me ... Nirto Karsten Fischer

[swifty]

Thanks folks, well, i must take the time and read these comments again. Maybe i was a little naive in thinking i could use my Cubase vst r6 through a Luna II and expect it to deal with everything: drums, vocals, git synth, etc. I need to get myself a midi interface for starters, by the sound of it that will help somewhat but the midi slop was new to me and also shifting to audio- my god, why didn't i think of these things- ah, hell, i just want to make music- like us all i'm sure. But anyway, thanks a lot for the good tips. I am very appreciative. swifty

[Anderton]

<> I hear ya, it seems a shame we just can't turn the key, push on the accelerator, and go. But then I remind myself how long it took me to learn to play guitar, which is just six monophonic oscillators on a plank of wood. So I don't feel too bad if it takes me a few weeks to get familiar with a program, or optimize a new computer.

[Uh Clem]

[quote]Originally posted by swifty: [b]Any tips on sequencing and how to get the problem of timing nailed?! It seems to me sometimes as if the whole tune, drums, guitar, bass etc, are in time together, but then a few days later listening to it some parts drag. Any theories? (besides better playing!! which of course would help, but i am a professional musician, its not that i dont have a clue what i'm doing - i mean, it must have something to do with techniques in the studio) Maybe this is not the place for these questions, i just wanted to say that i think you are doing a wonderful job. Any tips would of course be appreciated. Thanks. >>[/b][/quote] Hmm - I don't see the word MIDI in this question. Are these tracks (guitar???) MIDI? If they are audio tracks, then your problem is not MIDI timing. Please add some detail to what is going on.

[swifty]

As said, i use a Luna II which at the moment is dealing with midi too. LM4 for the drums, guitar synth for bass usually, keyboards for extra sounds, and guitar through the Luna audio. Sequencer- Cubase r6. I start the engine, Jan, by putting down the drums. When i'm happy i move on to bass or guitar, then keyboards, but somewhere along the way the drums begin to sound wrong in places, simply bad timing. It may be a mixture of me and midi slop and possibly rushing the process, too eager to get the song down, and bloody stressed out too. I'll try to take into account the good tips given here by all. You are right Jan, it took a long time to learn to play the guitar, and these sequencers are the instruments of the present and future. We're early generation. Anyway, thanks again everyone and hope you enjoy the process and are happy with the result. regards Swifty

[swifty]

Sorry, i meant Craig not Jan. It's 5.30am here!! swifty

[humannoyed]

I'm guessing that the hardest groovin, tightest drummers on the planet have timing inconsistances that are easily within the range of what is here being called midi slop, but you wouldn't call them sloppy so there is a difference. If quantized midi is not ON the beat then it is LATE because of midi congestion. What I'm saying is that it is never EARLY because of midi congestion, whereas a drummer or other musician's timing inconsistancies will be sometimes early, sometimes on, and sometimes late (hopefully not always late!). Therefore it would seem the midi fix would be to shift forward in time so that a percentage of hits come before the beat, some on, and some after. it is however, the inconsistancy of midi slop that makes it hard to correct. If most everything is on, then shifting forward a little then puts most everything early. So what do you do then? Doesn't anybody offer a groove science degree??

[swifty]

Does anybody else use the Luna II and if so do i need to make any changes so that that the latency is lessened? I wonder sometimes if i should just leave this recording stuff to experts and start practising a bit more - maybe the lack of practise these days is causing my, what shall i call it - guitar slop. Its great fun recording but i doubt i will ever create the sound i am after. I will probably continue nonetheless. One always chases a dream till one can run no more. I guess that is why i love this place - it is one of those places on the run where people hand you out water and shout you on. Swifty

[Anderton]

So did you ever check for excessive aftertouch data?

[swifty]

not yet Craig, coz to be honest i'm not really sure how. Got to look up my cubase manual, but i will definitely look into it. sounds like it is one of my problems coz sometimes it overloads playing keyboard and needs a few minutes before it frees itself of the congestion. do you think getting a midi interface will help?