Laptop vs. desktop for audio recording?

[WaterMan]

Can't decide. Any sacrifice in sound quality (or anything else) with a laptop? Also can't decide on platform. I plan to start with Tracktion or Logic. And why is it Mac DAWs generally don't have 2 disk drives like PC DAWs, and why do they seem to be able to handle multiple applications (iPod, Photoshop, etc,) without concern for "optimization?" I really don't want to start a Mac vs. PC war, but really folks, to the extent you can be objective, if you were to buy a new audio recording system (ideally with laptop flexibility) what would you do? Limit $2000 not including software and interface.

[theblue1]

I won't get into the Mac vs. PC thing here. I've done a lot of homework and I'm more than happy with my choice. That choice is not the right one for everybody, I'm sure. (And, if you've decided to buy a Mac for sure, I wouldn't even bring it up, 'cause it's a discussion that will go on forever. )

 

With regard to laptops... the sound quality comes from your signal chain and from your processing software. A good interface and good software will help assure optimal results.

 

Probably the biggest thing to watch out for is hard drive speed. You should get -- at the absolute, bedrock minimum -- a 5400 RPM drive. And you should budget for an outboard drive. (A FW drive for the Mac; USB2 has been a disappointing performer on that platform.)

 

7200 RPM 60 GB drives are available in the 2.5" laptop size (Hitachi TravelStar) and some vendors can supply them in their machines. They can be purchased aftermarket for

under $200 -- but replacing a laptop HD may not be for the faint of heart.

 

Most laptops are fairly quiet when they're not running hard. But putting a heavy load on the CPU or other systems [particularly when the battery is charging, which raises the ambient heat level] can cause fans to kick into overdrive.

 

(My own 1.4 GHz Centrino, built around the buzz-chip of the mo', the Pentium M, used to get the fans kicked into high by Sonar 2.2. But it appears Cakewalk rewrote some of the codebase to make more efficient use of the PM's energy-saving features. Sonar 4 seldom causes the fan to come on until CPU usage is fairly high, maybe 60-70% on Sonar's internal CPU meter, which is about when I start looking to freeze tracks, etc, anyhow. The upshot is, good software will make the most of your computers energy saving features, keeping it running cooler and quieter (and, of course, saving battery life when you're in the field -- or the coffee house.)

 

On other issues, I was amazed at how much I prefer using my 15.4" LCD laptop screen over my 'big, beautiful' 19" CRT (which has a decently high 85 Hz refresh rate). Much easier on my eyes... even though everything is much smaller... or there's less of it.

 

Of course, you'll want to take a look at the relative processor speeds, vis a vis the desktop. As you know, Mac laptops have lagged in sheer CPU power vis a vis their desktop bretheren.

 

When I made my choice, I went with the then relatively new Centrino (Pentium M) configuration, even though I had some doubts about its performance relative to the legacy P4 chips. But, since the machine was more for work (database development), I was more concerned with battery life. Happily, it turned out the PM was not only cool-running and had low power consumption, but it's proven to be a quite decent performer. (The benchmarks I've seen suggest my 1.4 GHz PM Centrino is roughly equivalent to a 2.5 GHz P4.)

 

(Really, recording was more an afterthought [not that its afterthought status kept me from shelling out for a MOTU 828mkII. Wish there'd been more choices when I got it. It's been fine, with the exception of the mic pre's, which are way over-dark to my taste; I would have greatly preferred 'neutral' flat pre's. But when Sonar 4 proved to use my machine so much more efficiently, I pushed back my plans to build a new desktop. Now I'm going to wait until I can build my next machine with a Yonah-generation PM chip. If it's good enough for Steve Jobs... [of course, that's what I said about my noisy IBM 7200 RPM 60 GB drive {since removed to the closet and holding a backup of my older mp3 collection} that was just like the one in my pals then-shiny-new Dual G4.] )

 

Anyhow, I have to say that I've really taken to the laptop experience and I can't imagine not having one, now. (It's also been extraordinarily helpful at work. That was nice. ) I just hope my experience with this machine (a Dell) hasn't set the bar so high that no choice for the next machine will be able to please me so much... I guess I can live with that for now.

[blackpig]

My laptop replaced a Jurassic P.C. I had a vague idea that I might use it for music with the appropriate software but I don't bother because the fan makes a noise to wake the dead. Useless in the same space as a microphone. I ended up with a standalone recording machine (Zoom 1266) which has served me very well. Mrs. Blackpig describes the laptop as my "pornograph". Used for communication and, ahem, entertainment purposes only.

[theblue1]

It's funny, as I wrote above, the fan seldom is audible on my Inspiron 8600 Centrino.

 

But it had been mostly on for the last fifteen minutes even though almost nothing was going on. I had a handful of browser windows open and Winamp Lite was just sitting ther. (WA Lite is one of the smallest media players around, I don't even have any video codecs in it. I turned it off, anyhow, but it didn't make any diff.) No huge files opened up in my photoeditor, DAW projects, nada. Just the browser windows.

 

I finally got sick of the fan and went looking for the cause... I closed window after window until... ta dah... one of those evil mofo "pop behind" ad pop ups with an animation ... It wasn't actually doing anything particular, just switching images around endlessly. You could do that all day bloody long with a GIF but no, they gotta use that stupid Flash engine! I swear I'm gonna turn it off again, at least in my everyday browser. (Or maybe that wasn't it, at all. I dunno. I have heavily animated Flash on a client's website I can have on for hours -- if I could stand to look ar it -- I don't design 'em; I just implement 'em in Flash.)

 

Anyhow, even a cool running box can be at the mercy of evil, wasteful software.

 

______________

 

And on another note: never assume that because one machine from a certain vendor is quiet (or posesses some other quality) that all the machines from them will, too. My Dell is normally almost silent -- but a friend's older, low-end Dell could be provoked into hyper-fan action just by running Cubasis.

[John Sayers]

The new laptops just get better and better IMO.

I've got a HP Compaq Presario R3000 with 1.5gig ram and a P43.2. Like it that much that I sent my old 2.8p4 desktop on to a friend.

 

I use a USB2 external 7,200rpm 200gig HD for extra storage.

I agree with blue about the screen. I really like the 16:9 aspect with 1200 x 800 res.

 

cheers

john

[EoS]

Your sound quality is going to be a matter of the interface you use, rather than a laptop/desktop thing.

 

As for software, that's a big decision - and there are HUGE differences between Tracktion and Logic. Those differences are both in price and functionality.

 

My last computer purchases were in 3 years ago. I'd been building my own PC-based DAW's for years running Cakewalk/Sonar. Due to a number of factors in my studio I started looking at Emagic's full line in 2001 ( the improved midi timeing of AMT, integration of Logic & SoundDiver, and Logic Control then on the horizon). I finally switched to Logic full time in 2002 when v5 came out - I also bought a Logic Control... and a week later Apple bought them. Ouch. I was within the 30 day window to return the LC so I did, and then took a look at what Apple was going to do. Being as all my hardware was cross platform, including FW uadio interfaces and HD's, I could make a choice.

 

In August 2002 I bought 2 computers - a DP 1GHz MDD G4, and a Sony Vaio GRX P4 1.6Ghz laptop. I use Logic 5.5.1 on the Laptop, and Logic Pro 7 on the Mac. Due to the timing of it all, I was able to get cross-platorm codes - no longer possible unless you can find an old copy for sale that's authorized for Windows. A lot of my projects start out on my laptop then I transfer them to the Mac. I've not bought any other software for my Mac - I didn't 'switch', I merely added a G4 as an appliance to run Logic in my studio. And yes, I did re-purchase the Logic Control and added an XT.

 

The laptop rocks. This spring I found instructions for upgrading the processor (gotta love the internet!) and bumped it up to 2.4GHz. I also upgraded the HD to a 7200 60GB Travelstar. It's got a 1600 x 1200 lcd, which is great for running a DAW. It's served me really well, and it's VERY quiet. I can record 32 tracks @ 44.1/24bit to the internal drive with no sweat. Since the upgrades it's got some more life left in it.

 

I also really like my Mac. With Logic 7 including an OSX port of Waveburner, I no longer have to boot to OS9 at all. OSX is a great OS. The MDD series were noisey as hell though. I was planning to ugrade to a G5 within the next year - they're amazingly fast. But that's on hold now due to the Intel announcement. I've thought about a Powerbook (Logic 7 has features I do miss when running 5 on my laptop), but they're still g4's.

 

I've had great experiences with both. The Pentium M laptops are screamin now, and if I was getting a new laptop that's the way I'd go. I also can't imagine life without my UAD-1, and that ain't gonna fly without a PCI slot.

 

But the bottom line is that the software drove my platform choices. If I was going Windows, I'd go with Sonar 4 (given the lack of Logic). Mac, definitely Logic and G5 - not powerbook.

[Hendmik]

If you go laptop, know your cpus. Pentium M's are intentionally throttled in speed, but have advanced power managment features. Pentium 4's have the strength to support higher load, i.e. more plug-ins, but forget Centrino. P4 laptops are also typically heavier because they run hotter, need more cooling facilities.

[theblue1]

The Pentium M (or Centrino, actually a branding of a chipset, including WiFi, built around the PM), like any other chip family, have speed tiers within a given architecture, so in that sense some of the tiers are throttled, I guess.

 

But the PM family has cracked 2 GHz. At least some benchmarks seem to support the general notion that the PM is maybe 70% more powerful than a Pentium 4 of the same speed. And that would put a 2.2 GHz Pentium M more or less in the same ballpark as the fastest Pentium 4's. At least that's the way I guesstimate it, but I'd be happy to entertain other data/extrapolations. (It's also worth noting that the P4 Mobile chip is not quite as powerful at a given clock speed as the 'desktop P4 chips, by and large. It's not a huge gap, though.)

 

 

You're right about the reduced heat and power consumption, of course.

 

And, of course, one is going to pay a premium for a Centrino of a given power -- so it's not the most 'bang' for your buck, performance-wise.

[WaterMan]

Great info, guys, thanks.

 

Now let me narrow down the question:

 

1) MusicXpc dedicated DAW

2) Mac G5

3) Laptop (PC or Mac)

 

If you were going to purchase tomorrow, what would you get and why?

 

Goal is best sound quality and simplicity in recording -- I will probably use Tracktion, Logic or Cakewalk with Mackie 1220 Firewire interface.

 

Thanks again.

[AmplifierExperts]

I'll post my two-cents on this, since I do a lot of traveling recording:

 

My Sony VAIO GRX560 laptop is just about dead silent. The fan is barely audible in a silent room and inaudible over the noise of other PCs in the room.

My laptop is connected to a MotU 896, which is an 8-channel A/D converter with 8 indepentant phantom-powered preamps. I use the Behringer B-1 large diaphragm studio condensers with this setup, and man it rocks!

DAW is Vegas 4.0. I have several others, but only Vegas writes to the final files as it records, meaning there's no 45-minute wait as Audition or some other DAW converts their muxed stream to individual 10GB files. It's instant, pack and go home right away after the concert. I love this rig.

[where02190]

Macs are very capable of multiple drives on desktops, in fact the G-4 design allows for 6 IDE drives with the addition of a 2 buss PCI card, plus 2 drives on the optical buss, for a total of 8.

 

We have 3 IDE drives in our dual 1Ghz G-4 with no mods whatsoever.

 

AFA what will give the best performance, a desktop with multiple internal SATA or IDE drives will far outperform a laptop with FW drives for audio. Simple issue of speed, SATA and IDE are much faster than FW.

 

AFA what platform (Windows vs Mac) chose the one you are most comfortable with, either will perform the task.

[Hendmik]

Originally posted by theblue1:

The Pentium M (or Centrino, actually a branding of a chipset, including WiFi, built around the PM), like any other chip family, have speed tiers within a given architecture, so in that sense some of the tiers are throttled, I guess.

It's not whether they can break 2.0Ghz, but rather if they should. And this is straight from Intel, with which I have quarterly roadmap meetings. Straight P4s have too many cooling requirements and those cooling requirements increase further when additional features are added to the chip. Their solution, to keep weight and price down, is throttle the chip to something more managable.

 

Originally posted by theblue1:

At least some benchmarks seem to support the general notion that the PM is maybe 70% more powerful than a Pentium 4 of the same speed.

No argument there. It was what, 3 years ago that the 2.0 Ghz barrier hit the market? The technology has evolved further since, that gives us more control over features and cooling. I'd be disappointed if, after 3 years, a same speed chip wasn't any better.

 

Originally posted by theblue1:

And that would put a 2.2 GHz Pentium M more or less in the same ballpark as the fastest Pentium 4's..

Whoa, not too sure how you came to that conclusion. I have seen no benchmark in which a PM 2.2 Ghz can equally perform against a P4 3.7 in any situation. I know you said that was a guesstimate, but I even researched a few benchmark tests before replying and couldn't find any evidence your statement is true.

 

Originally posted by theblue1:

(It's also worth noting that the P4 Mobile chip is not quite as powerful at a given clock speed as the 'desktop P4 chips, by and large. It's not a huge gap, though.)

I haven't done a ton of research on the P4M's. But my rep had told me about 6 months ago, that they were on their way out, replaced by the PM chip. The P4M was a product ported from the P4 for mobile use. Short on features, but allowed for a better travel weight than a straight P4. By redesigning the chip entirely, the PM was born.

 

Originally posted by theblue1:

(And, of course, one is going to pay a premium for a Centrino of a given power -- so it's not the most 'bang' for your buck, performance-wise.

That sums up my point nicely. Doesn't sound like we disagree on much.... What I have to constantly tell people (you clearly understand) is that a typical laptop is not a true desktop replacement. Those laptops that are desktop replacements are heavier than hell and have no advanced functionality regarding mobility. People seem convinced, by the inflight magazines they constantly read, that there are no compromises when going laptop over desktop. And everyone considering a laptop should weigh those and enter in the purchase with no exaggerated expectations (we typically get from a sales rep).

[Angelo Clematide]

Originally posted by WaterMan:

 

1) MusicXpc dedicated DAW

2) Mac G5

3) Laptop (PC or Mac)

my recommendation:

Music XP dedicated DAW

 

Software:

full production: Nuendo 3.0

composing only: CubaseSX 3.0

 

Here, Windows XP Pro and Mac.

Intel Stations: seven identical Workstations connected via RJ45 Network.

Mac Station: one high-end station for HDTV with 2 Terabyte SCSI storage.

 

Intel Stations:

2 IDE Harddrives 200 GB internal on a RAID

2 IDE Harddrives 200 GB in cartridges

4 USB Harddrives 250 GB

6-8 USB port per station.

1-8 Firewire ports per station.

Audio interfaces USB, Firewire, and PCI.

Dual Head graphics with 11 monitors on different desks in 3 rooms.

[Sergievsky]

Get a Powerbook if you'll be doing other things on it, like the internet, office, etc. OSX handles these different things really well, less headaches and worries.

 

I love my aging Powerbook and new iBook, but I just bought an Athlon64 Gateway because I need more horsepower for softsynths. These things have surpassed the mac laptops speedwise so if hp is what you're looking for, then a pc with a mobile Athlon64 chip is the way to go. But as an overall laptop, the Powerbooks are still the coolest thing.

[henryrobinett]

Hey Waterman!! How're doing? I won't and can't get into the PC/Mac debate. It's stupid and any way, I've only ever used a Mac, except for the odd time I had to help my wife with her PC.

 

It depends what you're application is going ot be for. For a few tracks, say up to 14 or so being RECORDED simulatneously, my powerbook 1gz ain't no slouch. But over that, which I frewquently do, it won't cut it with a standard software DAW. I use Metric Halo's Record Panel. With this I can record 18 tracks live trouble free for my remote gigs. But for my recording/mixing I've been extremely happy with the new Dual 2.7 G5.

 

You should come by and check it out.

[WaterMan]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Hey Waterman!! How're doing? I won't and can't get into the PC/Mac debate. It's stupid and any way, I've only ever used a Mac, except for the odd time I had to help my wife with her PC.

 

It depends what you're application is going ot be for. For a few tracks, say up to 14 or so being RECORDED simulatneously, my powerbook 1gz ain't no slouch. But over that, which I frewquently do, it won't cut it with a standard software DAW. I use Metric Halo's Record Panel. With this I can record 18 tracks live trouble free for my remote gigs. But for my recording/mixing I've been extremely happy with the new Dual 2.7 G5.

 

You should come by and check it out.

Henry, good to hear from you! Hope all is going well.

 

My recording needs will be pretty simple: mostly one or two tracks at a time: keyboard, drum samples/loops, vocal, and mic'd guitar amp (which I still suck at, BTW, when it comes to those damn scales......).

 

I'm leaning toward Tracktion and a Mackie mixer with Firewire. Now I need to decide Mac vs PC -- laptop vs desktop. The only advantage to a laptop that I see is the ability to take it with me when traveling. Perhaps not worth it considering all the great input in this thread about reduced performance in a laptop. So then it's G5 vs PC desktop. Even though I've never used a Mac, I like the concept of having it set up for all my AV needs -- so then the question is whether that's worth the additional cost over a PC.

 

Hope to see you playing soon -- any local booked gigs?

[henryrobinett]

I thought I just sent you a promo about a gig I did Friday. Must have changed your address. I'll let you know.

 

Re Mac/PC, I can't tell you. I think either one would do the trick. The debate is pretty silly at this point IMHO. It's what you're accustomed to I think. As I said I have both. It's great to take the PB on the road; do music and internet/email. But for the serious work I use the Tower. If you're going to be using a lot of VIs and loops type stuff, you might get hampered by CPU drain on a laptop. It all depends. I use Live, Kompakt, Battery and Reason. Not extensively, but they work fine for the limited use it gets around here. I'm talking powerbook. Of course they scream on the Dual 2.7. But I've been swamped with mixing chores so I haven't had much opprtunity to play as of late.

[Phait]

Maybe compare manufacturer warranties -- Apple vs ____ PC. At least try OS X at an Apple store for an hour or so.

[theblue1]

Hendmik

 

Well, I'm not sitting in on Intel roadmap meetings, that's for sure.

 

I've been through so many benchmarks and abstracts in the last week or so. I'll see if I can dig up those benchmarks.

 

Now -- with the understanding that a test of basic CPU efficiency is, by no means, the whole story (even when comparing chips, as I was) -- I rechecked the Seti@Home Processing Efficiency ratings (compiled from presumably tens of thousands of machines).

 

http://www.cox-internet.com/setispy/efficiency.htm

 

That wasn't one of the benchmarks I was thinking of, but when we compare the FLOPS/clock cycle rating given the various chips there between the Pentium M (banias generation) at 3.1 with the most efficient P4 (the 4 EE Gallatin) at 5.3 -- we get a ratio of 1.71 to 1 (rounding to 2 decimals), which would be, a 71% increase in CPU efficiency per that test.

 

Anyhow, I'll see if I can't get some more benchs to support my ballparking...

 

 

And, BTW, I totally agree with your provisos regarding "desktop replacement"... there are so many factors besides CPU speed/efficiency that go into doing productive work and in all laptops there are some-to-many compromises.

 

Anyone building the ultimate powerhouse computer will end up building it on the desktop.

 

But for less-than-ultimate performance, today's laptops can be surprisingly productive and powerful. Especially for guys like me whose last laptop was a DOS machine with only a floppy and no hard drive and a whopping 640K of RAM. Clock speed: 4.77 MHz. That's mega. The speed of the very first shipping IBM PC back in '81.

[theblue1]

Originally posted by Phait:

Maybe compare manufacturer warranties -- Apple vs ____ PC. At least try OS X at an Apple store for an hour or so.

Agreed on both counts. (I got a 3 year, next-day, onsite, extended warranty on my laptop after all my experienced laptop pals strongly urged me to go extended. I built my desktop and have no probs working on it. But there's no way I'm going deep into the guts of a tiny, jammed up laptop, heaven forfend it should ever be necessary.)

 

 

And, really, how do you know what you like in an OS until you've spent some time and -- importantly -- done some real work?

 

Looking over my pals' shoulders I was pretty ga-ga over OS X from the first time I saw it running on my buddy's then-mighty dual 800MHz G4. But when I spent some time with it on a Powerbook G4 of the same vintage as my own Dell, I realized that OS X puts on its pants one leg at a time, too, just like any other OS and GUI.

 

It was cool looking, as we all know, with lots of cute features, but even after optimization seemed less-than-quick on that $2800 machine. (Of course, a new 2.7 MHz G5 PowerMac tower will run big, laughing, lazy circles around that two year old 867 MHz G4 laptop!) And I found OS X to be quite a bit less easy to intuit than I had expected. (I'll admit, my eyes were filled with stars.)

 

Let me make it clear, though: none of that is a slag on OS X or the Mac platform -- just an illustration that we can have unrealistic expectations when our impressions are formed from afar.

 

(You know, once I had a lawn of my own to maintain [a burden I have since relieved myself of], I realized that the old saw about the neighbor's grass being greener is not just a comment about human nature, as I'd always assumed, but rather an observation on perspective and perception. When you're looking down at your own seedling sprouts, you see a lot of dirt between the blades. But when you look across at the neighbors -- viewing all those blades of grass from the side -- it looks like a forest of green. Computers can be like that, too. )

[Hendmik]

Like I said, it sounds like you and I don't disagree on much....

[gtrmac]

These days pretty much all the current computers have enough processing power for all but the most demanding power users. A desktop gives you more options for choosing hardware IMO since you can use PCI or Firewire devices but a laptop makes portability an option which is very appealing to some. A desktop can output to multiple displays with the proper hardware and this is a big plus to me.

 

If you choose a laptop make sure it has Firewire which is not available in all models. You will need it for using external hardrives which are an absolute necessity with both Macs and Windows machines. The internal hardrive on any computer is not where you want to store the audio data and the audio software files. Audio computer systems run more efficiently when there is a dedicated high speed drive for the files. This is even more important with a laptop. Macintosh users add a dedicated drive to the system for this reason, sometimes using the Firewire port with an external drive.

 

The latest desktop motherboards use SATA (Serial ATA) busses which are faster and more efficient than the older IDE buss also and I don't know if this is an option with laptops since the SATA port would have to be external.

[EoS]

Originally posted by Mark Weiss:

I'll post my two-cents on this, since I do a lot of traveling recording:

 

My Sony VAIO GRX560 laptop is just about dead silent.

Mark,

That's the same model I have, and that I upgraded. If you've not done so, you'll want to read this GRX Upgrade Procedure

 

Took about a 1/2 hour. No sweat. But those chips are disappearing fast.

[flyscots]

About the fan noise... there's an interesting post about the fans in Centrino laptop's in this thread.

 

Yeah I know I'm plugging my own thread, but it does relate to this so I thought some of you might like to see it.

[theblue1]

Hendmik

 

There's an interesting article at Tom' Hardware Guid where they use a mobo adapter to run a Pentium M and test it against a P4 EE and an Athlon 64 FX. But, this being Tom's they can't resist upping the clock speed from 2.2 to 2.5. Anyhow, even though the PM is sitting on this adapter on a mobo not designed for it, according to THG, it beats the P4 EE and the Athlon 64 FX.

 

It wasn't originally our plan to have the Pentium M and the Pentium 4 face off against each other. What was initially meant to be just a simple review of an upgrade adapter for aging mainboards turned into a victory march for the Pentium M. In the end, our results led us to a very explosive conclusion: there aren't many areas where the Pentium M isn't better than the P4. And at higher clock speeds, it even becomes powerful enough to dethrone an Athlon 64 FX.

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050525/index.html

[Anderton]

I use a laptop for mobile stuff and a desktop. The desktop is easier to maintain and customize -- removeable drive bays, PCI interface instead of trying to do audio over firewire/USB, better choice of keyboards, better track counts from the higher speed drives, etc. Take the money you save from buying a desktop instead of a laptop and get a dual monitor system!! To me, that's the single best improvement for any sequencer.

[WaterMan]

Originally posted by Anderton:

I use a laptop for mobile stuff and a desktop. The desktop is easier to maintain and customize -- removeable drive bays, PCI interface instead of trying to do audio over firewire/USB, better choice of keyboards, better track counts from the higher speed drives, etc. Take the money you save from buying a desktop instead of a laptop and get a dual monitor system!! To me, that's the single best improvement for any sequencer.

Thanks to everyone for your input. Based largely on your suggestions (and some additional research), I've decided to go with a dedicated desktop DAW. However, I'm now concerned by Craig's statement regarding PCI interface and Firewire. I was all set to go with the Mackie 1220 with Firewire card. Am I to understand that PCI is better? If so, why? And does this rule out the mixer interface?

 

Thanks again.

[Henchman]

I've abandoned my desktop for an AMD64 based laptop form Emachines/Gateway.

They simply rock.

You can pick up the Emachines version for under $1k.

 

I'm probaly going to upgarde the processor to a 3700 this year and then wait for the Dualcore laptops next year.

 

Do yourself a favour. Get a Gateway/Emachisne AMD64 machine.

[theblue1]

You're talking about picking one of those up used, right? I found a refurbished one for $1400 here .

[Anderton]

Re PCI vs. Firewire: A PCI card will always have a "tighter" connection with the guts of a computer than Firewire or USB. There are some excellent comments about this in RME's FireFace manual (I think they're pretty objective because they make both PCI and Firewire solutions). Obviously, FireWire interfaces work very well, and can handle plenty of tracks at reasonable sample rates (ie. not 192kHz!). I tested FW with the Mackie Onyx and it rocked, plus the Onyx serves as an audio interface too. Firewire is more transportable, convenient, easier to set up, and adaptable if you change platforms. The tradeoff is a slight performance hit when you're pushing your machine.