rehersal suggestions?

[ryst]

My solo project, Apocrypha, is ready to be played out with a live band soon. But during practice, we play really, really loud. I think it's contributing to our lack of tightness. Any suggestions on how to get more tight before our first gig? Any tips to ensure that what we hear in our practice will carry over to our live show or should we expect everything to sound completely different on stage no matter what we do during practice?

[Billster]

You said it yourself - turn down the volume so you can hear what you are doing together.

 

That will apply to the stage as well. Let the house system push the volume and keep your stage volume to a minimum.

 

The only adjustment will be hearing the foldback from the house system - listen to the drums on stage, not the sound from the PA bouncing off the back wall.

[Tedster]

Who's the loudest player? Usually it's someone who starts the loudness wars...and then it's a big "arms race"

 

Toss a blanket or a sheet over the drum kit, and play through 10 watt practice amps.

[ryst]

Originally posted by Tedster:

Who's the loudest player? Usually it's someone who starts the loudness wars...and then it's a big "arms race"

 

Toss a blanket or a sheet over the drum kit, and play through 10 watt practice amps.

Who's the loudest?...well, it's the drummer. He just hits so hard. He breaks his heads constantly and has broken most of his cymbals. He has had to buy new ones since then. The music is very dynamic and when the loud parts come in he goes crazy. So when we play live, does the drummer have to change his style too? His dynamics are a huge part of the sound so I am a little worried if he has to not play how he naturally plays. During practice though, we can definitly tone it down a bit.

[Lee Knight]

Here's what I've done for years...

 

Regardless of the style fo music (and I've heard yours and I dig it), practice with acoustic guitars, elec bass real quiet, drum sticks an a book, and no vocal mics, just singing in the room. Get it sounding cool that way for a few rehearsals.

 

Use your imaginations with regard to distortion and volume. If someone's sucking, they'll know it themselves as well as everybody else, and they'll be able to correct it more easily.

 

If the bass player's playing slop, the kick won't be covering it. If the backups are out of tune and time, it's easier to hear. If the 2 guitars are playing in two different sratospheres, this will bring them together without the intense masking that volume can bring.

 

Then, after a couple of those, go electric while trying to still keep the relative balance intact, just louder.

 

Works everytime...

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, what Lee said. It's really good to have some rehearsals at low volume so you can work out what everyone's playing and singing. Then when you go back to playing louder, everyone will be that much more aware of what they and their bandmates are doing.

 

As for your loud drummer... I really don't think playing THAT hard does a service to the music, and mind you I love a hard hitting drummer. But playing hard enough to break sticks, cymbals and heads on a regular basis usually means the drummer can never actually hear what the rest of the band is doing very well... and neither can the rest of the band. If he can't adjust his dynamics to suit the room and the song then that's a problem.

 

You can still have a LOT of dynamics in the music without him playing hard enough to break heads and cymbals. At a certain point the human ear simply "compresses" the sound and can't perceive any difference in loudness, and your drummer is probably way past that point so all he is really doing is breaking things and making it impossible for you to really hear each other, which takes away from the performance way more than any perceived benefit of playing that hard. Drums also tend to have an optimal sweet spot where you are playing loud enough to really get the full impact and voice of the drums but not so hard that you choke them off. Again if he is breaking heads your drummer is probably past that good point.

 

And yes it will sound different on stage than in the practice room, but that's why it's doubly important to get your act together in practice. The better you are able to "mix yourselves" the less of a factor the club's sound man will be at a gig - which is a good thing because there's no way the sound man is as intimately familiar with your band and your arrangements as you are. When you get on stage you should be able to fall back on what you do in practice, you should NOT put yourselves in a situation where you can't hear anything or sound like ass in practice and rely on the club being a bigger room or having a better sound system, to make you sound good. You will rarely hear each other better onstage than at practice, so do whatever you have to do to hear yourselves well in practice and work out what everybody's going to do... that way if you can't hear yourselves or each other too well on stage, you'll be able to compensate by playing it like you did at practice. That's how you get tight.

[Lee Knight]

What she said!

 

I think any ensemble should be able to do it like the Elvis band did, or Muddy Waters, or CSN&Y. I bet Metalica can do it with acoustics and drum sticks on a book.

 

Dump the drummer if he can't adapt (God I'm a cold bastard).

[Lee Flier]

Well I've met Nathan's drummer, haven't heard him play but he seems like a good dude. For most musicians, learning to play well in a band (and that includes dealing with dynamics issues) is just a matter of understanding the benefits of doing it, and learning that being selfish in a band doesn't benefit anybody. Sure it can be a fine line sometimes... I mean, if you're a rock band you're going to be loud, and the music doesn't sound as inspired nor do drums and guitar amps sound as good if you can't get a certain amount of volume happening. So, people who expect rock bands to play at cocktail music volume are out of line. But you gotta figure out an optimal balance between playing passionately and not totally sacrificing your sound and balance as a band. Also, bands who play ridiculously loud tend to piss off sound men because there's no way most club PA's can handle those kinds of SPL's and still sound good... and you really don't want to piss off sound men at gigs. If they perceive that you don't care how you sound, they're not going to care much either.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by ryst:

Who's the loudest?...well, it's the drummer. He just hits so hard. He breaks his heads constantly and has broken most of his cymbals. He has had to buy new ones since then. The music is very dynamic and when the loud parts come in he goes crazy.

Get another drummer.

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Well I've met Nathan's drummer, haven't heard him play but he seems like a good dude. For most musicians, learning to play well in a band (and that includes dealing with dynamics issues) is just a matter of understanding the benefits of doing it, and learning that being selfish in a band doesn't benefit anybody. Sure it can be a fine line sometimes... I mean, if you're a rock band you're going to be loud, and the music doesn't sound as inspired nor do drums and guitar amps sound as good if you can't get a certain amount of volume happening. So, people who expect rock bands to play at cocktail music volume are out of line. But you gotta figure out an optimal balance between playing passionately and not totally sacrificing your sound and balance as a band. Also, bands who play ridiculously loud tend to piss off sound men because there's no way most club PA's can handle those kinds of SPL's and still sound good... and you really don't want to piss off sound men at gigs. If they perceive that you don't care how you sound, they're not going to care much either.

I'm sure he's a nice guy, and my comment about dropping him is only half serious. I like loud, but it's got to be right or it sounds like loud dung. Loud "music" on the other hand is ecstacy.

 

Oh, and I think bashing drummers are different from loud drummers. Bashing drummers choke their instrument. Load drummers make them speak boldly and with authority.

[ryst]

Lee, Damon says hi!..

I agree with what you guys (Lee 1 and 2) are saying now that it's soaked in. There is a way for my drummer to still be hard and aggressive but not to pass the point of sounding good. I think we are just a tad bit over that right now. We are young and have a ton of energy and since we only practice twice a week right now, we are all bottled up and ready to explode. But I will have us all scale down quite a bit. It makes perfect sense. It was probably my fault because I told my drummer to play like if John Bonham was on steriods.....oops!

[Lee Flier]

Yeah exactly Lee... what I meant was that since this guy seems like a good guy and someone who genuinely cares about music, he might be more open to making some changes than someone who has a bigger ego/gets more defensive.

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by ryst:

It was probably my fault because I told my drummer to play like if John Bonham was on steriods.....oops!

That's funny! Bonham on Red Bull?

[ryst]

Originally posted by Lee Knight:

Originally posted by ryst:

It was probably my fault because I told my drummer to play like if John Bonham was on steriods.....oops!

That's funny! Bonham on Red Bull?

More like if John Bonham was really good friends with Jose Canseco.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by ryst:

Lee, Damon says hi!..

Tell him I say hi back!

 

We are young and have a ton of energy and since we only practice twice a week right now, we are all bottled up and ready to explode.

Yeah I understand totally! Especially if you haven't played a gig yet the adrenalin gets going and it feels so good just to be playing live with other musicians that you go nuts! And that can be fun sometimes, just to get together and jam for the adrenalin factor and not care what it sounds like. Then you can get down to more serious rehearsing.

 

What really makes music get to the next level IMO is tension. Where there's the feeling in the air that you're just ready to explode but you don't, except maybe at certain select moments. Not a vibe of "wimping out" because you're laying back and playing lazily, but one of deliberately yet barely controlled fury. That gives you tightness and focus and leaves the audience with the promise that you can deliver just a little more than you let on.

 

But I will have us all scale down quite a bit. It makes perfect sense. It was probably my fault because I told my drummer to play like if John Bonham was on steriods.....oops!

LOL... well you know Bonham was always completely musical and he also rarely hit as hard as he sounded! He was a great example of someone letting the power come from the voicings of the drums rather than just brute force. I have a couple of drummer friends who saw Zep live in their prime and they both say Bonham didn't play nearly as hard as they'd expected him to. He just sounded like he did.

 

Anyway glad this is making sense and hope it helps!

[halljams]

Good suggestions.

 

When i was in college the best teacher there used to come to our rehearsal rooms and teach us how to rehearse.That was some of the best shit i learned there.

Here are some tips.

 

-Whovever counts the tune in must have the ability to indicate the groove in his/her count. Count for at least 2 measures, four is better and count like it means something, count with conviction.

Set up the feel for everyone BEFORE the tune starts and if you are not the one counting, listen and internalize that feel.

 

-Practice the tune in sections until everyone's parts are clear and all transitions and starts and endings are clear. Get analytical, don't blow over this part. If a section is hard for someone or everyone, loop it 10 or 20 times and be play it SLOW, play it right, have consideration for any member having trouble with a section and play it with them till it works.

 

-Practice SLOWER with the band than you normally would play the tune and make it groove at a slow speed when you practice, This is so overlooked so often and can really help.

When you are on the gig chances are the adreneline will make you want to play faster than you should so if you know how to grove slower you will have the facility to control that.

 

If the drummer is too loud and his excuse is he needs to be loud to groove, explain to him that playing with conviction has nothing to do with volume, it comes from hearing the feel and groove it from inside. Try counting quietly with conviction, it's WHEN the beats fall

Great drummers can do it loud and quiet.

 

And I highly recommend Lee's idea of rehearsing unamplified along with amplified. it's very exposing.

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by halljams:

-Practice SLOWER with the band than you normally would play the tune and make it groove at a slow speed when you practice, This is so overlooked so often and can really help.

I've never tried that. That sounds like a great idea. I do it when I'm practicing my instrument, but never with the whole band. I'll try it tonight.

 

BTW Ryst, anyone who titles a post rehersal suggestions? has got it figured out. Most don't care and just want to crank it and jam... dude.

[Billster]

Good stuff Halljams.

 

There is a tracking order thread at Phil O'keefe's forum that I accidentally sidetracked into a rehearsal discussion. The original poster mentioned that the band might not know where they are in the song without the vocal being present.

 

So, my point here is that all the good rehearsal techniques brought up here apply to preparing to record as well as preparing to gig.

[Bill Roberts]

Damn.

 

I never understood a drummer who breaks heads and cymbals on regular basis.

 

My absolute favorite drummer is a zen master. he has a spot on the snare that is the size of a dime. His cymbals are 30 years old and look brand new. he gets more sheer volume (Largeness and clean) out of a kit than I have really ever heard...technique...the key.

 

Well, it is going to be a hard habit for your drummer to break..perhaps it is the sound he is seeking but believe me, it can sound "so much better" than thrashing a kit..and you can get the same effect..

 

I would play as absolutly as far away from the drums as humanly possible if he is in the 135db range.

 

I am afraid if the drummer is around, you are going to have some juice behind your axe to be heard.

 

What would be cool is to have the drummer do an 8 count on each tune (prior) and record him. The each of you can practice to the drums at a comfortable volume.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by halljams:

-Practice the tune in sections until everyone's parts are clear and all transitions and starts and endings are clear. Get analytical, don't blow over this part. If a section is hard for someone or everyone, loop it 10 or 20 times and be play it SLOW, play it right, have consideration for any member having trouble with a section and play it with them till it works.

Great point! A lot of bands' idea of rehearsing a song is playing the whole song through a bunch of times... which may be a waste of time because it's likely there are only certain sections which are trouble spots. Get those transitions really tight and THEN play through the whole song.

 

And yeah, slowing down the tempo can really help too. It helps everybody be more aware of their parts and listen to each other better too.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Billster:

So, my point here is that all the good rehearsal techniques brought up here apply to preparing to record as well as preparing to gig.

Definitely! A lot of bands can't get through a single take of a song without somebody screwing up, which means a lot of time gets wasted in editing, not to mention the performance isn't as solid and doesn't flow as well as if it were a continuous piece. The performance tends to be better too if you don't have to do so many overdubs out of fear that somebody can't get through a complete take when everybody is playing together.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Bill Roberts:

My absolute favorite drummer is a zen master. he has a spot on the snare that is the size of a dime. His cymbals are 30 years old and look brand new.

Yeah that's how our drummer is (and he's my absolute favorite ). In fact he has a new drum kit where the drums are larger sizes than what he's been used to, which changes his stick angle and so forth, and he actually got MAD after his first gig with them that he had dented the heads! He prides himself on not doing that.

[ryst]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Bill Roberts:

My absolute favorite drummer is a zen master. he has a spot on the snare that is the size of a dime. His cymbals are 30 years old and look brand new.

Yeah that's how our drummer is (and he's my absolute favorite ). In fact he has a new drum kit where the drums are larger sizes than what he's been used to, which changes his stick angle and so forth, and he actually got MAD after his first gig with them that he had dented the heads! He prides himself on not doing that.

Actually, my drummer never used to hit his drums as hard as he does with me. Partly because of my suggestion since my favorite drummers are more hard hitting but mainly, he really feels the music a lot and understands what it's about. He gets pretty emotional a lot of times in practice. But I know him pretty well and I don't think it will take much for him to scale back a bit. All these suggestions are really, really good.

[Ernest Buckley]

First several rehearsals we rehearse on acoustic guitars. The bass is playing very low through an amp and our drummer is using brushes. Then once we have the songs where they need to be arrangement wise and dynamically, we plug in.

 

Very simple.