extreme OT - deep cycle batteries.

[John Sayers]

Running on solar one of my main concerns are my batteries. I've always believed that batteries just wear out and need constant replacing, like the battery in my car that lasted 4 years and was finished.

 

Untrue. What wears a battery out is that the sulphates form on the lead plates which inhibits the interface between the suphuric acid and the lead and overtime it builds up to the point that the battery no longer holds any charge.

 

Increasing the charge voltage can burn the sulphates off but it will also blow up the battery.

 

I've recently discovered a unit called a desulphinator which is a simple electronic circuit that sends high voltage pulses to the battery - enough to remove the sulphates but not enough to cause the battery to explode. I'm talking 1000 pulses per second.

 

I've read report after report, even a forum on it, where people have taken old discarded batteries, cleaned them up and attached a desulphinator for a couple of weeks and returned the battery to original specs.

 

If you own a motorvan, like Bruce, or a boat with deep cycle batteries, or even want to improve the condition and reliability of your car battery, attaching one of these ($100) to the battery will double if not triple the life of the battery plus you will always have a battery operating in top condition. It works on lead acid and lead gel batteries.

 

Just a piece of useless info I thought I could share

 

cheers

john

[Mats Olsson.]

That's great news.

 

Also makes a lot of environmental sense.

[Wewus432]

That's great info John, thanks, I'll check it out.

 

Solar's great but I think people forget that one of the easiest, and least expensise ways to produce electricity is microhydro power.

[John Sayers]

what exactly do you mean by Microhydro power??

 

cheers

john

[Wewus432]

Microhydro turbines use moving water to generate electricity.

[offramp]

Well, sure, wewus...if you wanna stand over yer toilet and drink water all day.

 

John Sayers...I tell you, I'm dying to get converted to solar. We're leasing right now, so that kinda takes the fun out of it. For the future reference though, I thank you for that "useless" piece of info.

I'm slowly working on my wife's parents to make the change. They live in a sun-drenched valley up in the mountains; and although they may have to move soon, the area they'd move to isn't a whole lot less sun-drenched than their current home. If they DO move, I'm going to push ultra-hard on 'em for the solar jump.

 

Do you know what happens to the sulphates when they're evicted? Do they settle to the bottom of the cells, or are they converted to another state?

[offramp]

Just looked at that Microhydro site. WAY cool.

 

Just thinking out loud, here; no technical number-crunching....

What if you could at least hook one of these things up to the water inlet to your house? And maybe...just maybe...one on each of the major water draws: shower, sink, dishwasher, garden faucet line? Each time you used one of these water lines, you'd be putting a little more energy back into your system.

 

AND...what if...you could get a high-temp one in the coolant line on your car? The output could feed the battery, or help the electric side of a hybrid system?

[John Sayers]

Do you know what happens to the sulphates when they're evicted

They return to the sulphuric acid/electrolyte from whence they came. When a battery is charged the sulphites move to the plates, as you discharge they move back again. The problem is that over time they stop getting going back.

 

This unit encourages them back again

 

 

Yeah Wewus - I have access to one of those - problem for most is having enough head. 600ft is a lot and to find a creek with that kind of fall is very hard.

 

I've got around a 50ft head into my Ram Pump similar to this pic.

 

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pics/pumps/rampump1.gif

 

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm

 

It pumps water up to tanks behind my house. It pumps 2000 liters/day (500gals) free!! I could also run a pelton wheel but I would need a higher flow into my creek for it to be sustainable all year round as it needs a 4" feed as opposed to the 1" of the ram.

 

When I first looked into solar 20 years ago you could get 20watt panels, a few years ago you could get 80watt solar panels. Now they are up to 185watt. They are getting there.

 

The other great benefit for me has been the low wattage curly fluoro lights that look and plugin like normal bulbs but are 1/4 the power consumption. I use 8 watt bulbs that are the equivalent of 40 watt incandescent globes in all my lamps.

 

cheers

john

[Wewus432]

posted by John:

Yeah Wewus - I have access to one of those - problem for most is having enough head. [Roll Eyes] 600ft is a lot and to find a creek with that kind of fall is very hard.

From The SCSolar site referring to The Harris turbine:

Operates efficiently on heads of 20 to 600 feet and on flows of 2 to 250 GPM

 

Available with site-selected alternator or adjustable permanent magnet alternator

[Dak Lander]

Before I quit the equipment maintenance field the battery pulser was an item that was on my list of products that looked promising and that I wanted to test. The process does sound viable but only if the water in the battery was never contaminated with non-distilled water. IMHO, that, more than anything else, causes batteries to die prematurely. Next is over charging, then running the battery too low. Mechanical shock will also cause battery failure though it's not really related to failure of the electron transfer in the same way. (lead acid batteries here guys) Then, of course you have the reversed connections and idiots smoking too close to the battery or using a match to check levels, and blow them up, but that's really not a battery failure...

[offramp]

...no, that's natural selection.

 

Spot-on about the distilled water thing; it's one of those things my Dad taught me when I was a kid, and I'd never really thought about until that moment, but it sure made sense. I guess my question these days is how do you make sure that a battery has distilled water from the start?

 

John, we have those curly flo's all over the house. MAJOR difference, both in the quality of light and our electric bill.

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by offramp:

I guess my question these days is how do you make sure that a battery has distilled water from the start?

Ostensibly the battery would have distilled water from the factory. If the battery is shipped dry-charged and filled at the vender site or warehouse there's no telling. The dry-charged batteries used to have that information on the label. I don't know if that's even a viable option any more.

When I was in the service, USN, Electrician, we would mix our own electrolyte. We placed pure distilled water in a measured container and slowly, very slowly, added pure sulpheric acid to get to a specific gravity of 1300. Then the battery was charged.

That was stopped, for us, in about 1972, maybe late 1971, when we started using pre-mixed electrolyte.

I doubt you'll ever read a 1300 specific gravity in an automotive battery or off road equipment battery.

 

A side note,

Some of the sealed batteries can be unsealed and if they are using a normal, water based electrolyte, you can refill with distilled water. You won't get them re-sealed as well so you will end up with seepage and the resultant corrosion.

Other sealed batteries have a electrolyte that is a gel. Those cannot be topped of with water, even if you can get them open without destroying the case. We tried that years ago and what little life was left in that battery went south pretty quickly after adding the water.

[Bbach1]

So lets see, the unit to extent your battery life costs about $100. You will add some life to your battery, but perhaps not quite double. I don't know. I suppose over the long haul a person would gain some benefit. I don't seem to have much trouble making our car batteries last several years and then replacing them for well under $100. Does this unit remain installed on the vehicle or is it a temporary hook up and can be used to clean up every battery you have? What kind of life expectance does the unit itself have?

[offramp]

Dak, I remember the days when you could go down to Western Auto or somesuch and get electrolytes. I thought that was the coolest thing in the world.

 

I would think it would be worth the effort to obtain some dry-charged batteries and do it right, yourself, the first time.

[Dak Lander]

Robert, the life of the device is unknown, like any piece of gear. It could last 30 minutes, hours, days, years, decades. I've had battery charges that lasted a long time and some that didn't. This piece of gear won't be any different in that regard. The unit I looked at was usable either way, hard wired or clamped on. I did in fact purchase one for a piece of equipment, a electro/hydraulic man lift, that was seldom used and because of that, even with a smart trickle charger installed and powered up, the battery had to be replaced about once a year at about the same cost of the desulphinators. I left the business before it could be installed and tested.

If this device were to be used from the start on a fresh battery that never had anything except distilled water put into it for replenishment, the life expectency of the battery becomes, in theory, virtually unlimited. The example of solar power storage, where the storage room environment is somewhat controlled and the chance of mechanical/vibratory failure is essentially nil, is the one of the best, with the probablility of the longest live of all components. Another great use would be in battery powered computer system backups, especially large computer system formats, medical systems, aeronautical systems, the list goes on.

Is it the cat's meow when it comes to automotive, truck and other equipment? Who knows. There's not been enough experience in it's use. Most, not all, equipment managers are loathe to try these types of new things.

I believe, however, that with the rising costs of lead acid batteries due to environmental constraints and the hazardardous waste disposal issues it's certainly worth a good look. Yes, you can go down to Manny Moe and Jack's and buy a battery that will get you by, in your personal set of wheels, but when you're looking at several hundreds of dollars for an over the road rig, large construction equipment and the like, if you can double or triple the life of that particular battery you've spent that money wisely.

I don't know if you are still getting paid for used/junk batteries in NoDak. Here you're lucky if you can give them away and someplaces you have to pay to dispose of an old lead acid battery. Most times, and the safest, is to use the city's or county's hazardous disposal program.

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by offramp:

Dak, I remember the days when you could go down to Western Auto or somesuch and get electrolytes. I thought that was the coolest thing in the world.

 

I would think it would be worth the effort to obtain some dry-charged batteries and do it right, yourself, the first time.

Yeah offramp, it would still be nice but too many idiots sprayed people, cars and other things with. There were also instances where kids & animals got into it. Unfortunely those of us who realized the danger of the stuff and used it accordinly have to pay the price for the foibles of the idiots and the uncaring.

On the other hand, no more rubber gloves, face shields, aprons, fume masks & etc.

 

I still wear safety glasses and gloves when handling batteries though. So should everyone.

[John Sayers]

Operates efficiently on heads of 20 to 600 feet and on flows of 2 to 250 GPM

but it doesn't put out the wattage they quote at 20ft head height. The 700wats is at 600ft, 250GPM. 20ft and 2gpm is nothing like 700watts.

 

The version available here puts out 110volts so it can be wired over distance back to your house.

 

Believe me - I've looked into them. My neighbour has one.

 

BTW - One company that uses the desulphinator is Crown Forklift trucks that are battery driven.

 

cheers

john

[Wewus432]

Originally posted by John Sayers:

Operates efficiently on heads of 20 to 600 feet and on flows of 2 to 250 GPM

but it doesn't put out the wattage they quote at 20ft head height. The 700wats is at 600ft, 250GPM. 20ft and 2gpm is nothing like 700watts.

Still seems like a microhydro generator could be beneficial even with a small head, for recharging a battery system. It could take the load off your solar system, and of course produce power 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

[John Sayers]

Sure - I agree wewus - it's great system - I've looked into it - the unit is around $3K plus all the 4" polypipe needed to get back up to the head (approx 300m)- then there is the power poles and wire needed to get the power back up the 200ft to my house from the creek hence the need for a 110volt system.

 

The way our drought is going I'd be out of power at the moment - there is JUST enough flow to drive the ram pump.

 

cheers

john