Recording a small Jazz band

[g8bassplayer]

Hi Guys,

I've been asked to record a small Jazz band (female vocalist, sax and guitar) who focuses on songs from the 30's to 50's, and was wondering if you had any advice for the landscape of the mixdown. The guitar plays throughout the song. The sax plays opposite the vocalist. It's frequently one or the other, but both in a few spots. I'll be tracking them individually in my studio.

 

We record on May 15th--16th, so I'm trying to decide how to record it (number of mic's and positioning) to get the best sound, and very important, and of most concern, is how to position the tracks into a mix. I'd like to decide how the landscape of the mix will look before recording the session.

 

I have a small project studio in my home, but pretty good gear. I'll probably use my Royer 122 in front of the sax, and a U87 over the players shoulder. I'll probably use a Sennheiser E609 and the Royer on the guitar cabinet. I'll probably use the U87 on the vocalist. (I also have AKG414, 58Beta's, and a few other mic's on the shelf.) I use Pendulum Audio Quartet, RNP and JM's for mic pre's.

 

Any ideas for improving the micing, and more specifically, any ideas on how to position the instruments in the mix would be most welcome. On stage, they usually play sax on left, vocalist center and guitar on the right.

 

Thank you,

Dave

[Billster]

If you have enough space and microphones, why not do this:

 

1. Have them set up as they would on stage, and position a stereo pair somewhere near the vocalist, and run a few tunes down to get the balance of the trio nice.

 

2. Then record parallel with close mics and the stereo pair (five tracks total)

 

3. Use the close mic tracks to accentuate parts as needed at the mix session.

 

Of course phase cancellation could become an issue between the close mics and the stereo pair, but why not go vintage?

[g8bassplayer]

Thanks Bill,

I like the suggestion. Nice technique.

 

Unfortunately, they can't all be here at once. I've got the guitar player and sax on one day, the singer the next.

 

Knowing the configuration, would you take two tracks on the guitar and pan one a little left, and the other a little right (not too wide). Put the singer in the middle. Bring the sax up a little bit to left of the singer when he plays? It seems like the guitar needs to have a wide image, but not too wide.

 

Dave

[Philip OKeefe]

Well, my first question is, are you planning on recording them all simultaneously, or are you going to overdub everything? Or overdub just the vocals? You said "recording seperately", but recording simultaneously may be a nice way to go about it if they're good players... after all, this IS jazz.

 

As far as panning / mix perspective with such a small combo, I'd probably go for the guitar in stereo, with the panning not too wide, with the vox towards the center, maybe just slightly off to one side, and the sax towards the center, maybe slightly off towards the opposite side... but that would depend on the material and what they sound like. Of course, you can always go for the perspective and positioning that represents their live performance setup, but IMO, that may be a little heavy on the leaning towards the right with the guitar playing all the time and nothing happening on the left in many spots.

 

Are the guitar parts all electric or is any of it acoustic? More details on the guitar rig please! If it's a amp, I'd probably go fairly close in with the e609, a bit further out with the Royer, and if the room sounds good, stick a 414 even further out - 6-8' or so, and print each to a seperate track.

 

Tenor or alto sax, or something else? I agree with putting the ribbon mic on the sax... I like a Beyer M160, a few feet out in front of the sax, placed at nearly "head height", and aimed slightly downwards, towards the point "between" the player's two hands. The idea is to pick up the entire sax, and not just cram the mic into the bell. The sound of the sax comes as much, if not moreso, from the open pads as it does from just the bell of the instrument.

 

If you'd like to hear some MP3's of my latest jazz album / recording, you can click on this link. There's some tasty tenor playing, as well as upright bass, piano, guitar, drums, percussion and vocals... IOW, it's a slightly larger combo, but you might get some ideas from listening to those clips.

 

Best of luck with your recording project.

[Philip OKeefe]

Okay, you typed your answer while I was typing mine, and since they can't all come in on the same day, ignore my "track 'em simultaneously" suggestion.

[g8bassplayer]

Thanks Phillip,

The band is surprisingly good. The young singer (25'ish) has a wonderful voice, and sings jazz with feeling. Between you and Bill, I'm beginning to think it may be a mistake to record them individually as musicians. I'll plan the session as we discussed, but try to covince them to reschedule for a time when they can all be together (if possible).

 

The guitar is an electric hollowbody with one pickup near the fret board. The second pickup near the bridge was removed at some point (so it's kind of dark sounding). We'll be going through an amp, or possibly I'll split the signal running one side through the amp, and a secong direct through a Mesa Recording Pre. I'd still leave two mic's on the cab. Close with the 609 -- back a bit with the Royer (I'll be careful of phase issues).

 

I like the mic technique you suggest for the sax, and will put the 414 back, behind the Royer. I hadn't thought about the height and direction, so I'll raise the 122 up just a little and point it downward toward the bell (back about 3 feet).

 

I'll check out your jazz recordings. I usually do crazy loud rock, so definitely need to hear the good work of others. Thank you for the link, and great suggestions.

 

Dave

[g8bassplayer]

Phil,

"Don't Tell The Sun" comes closest to the overall sound we'll be trying to get, but "Say You Will" has a lot of the same expressiveness. Geez I love the sound of jazz, and you did a great job on the album.

 

Can you tell me what you added to the vocal track to get that sweet sound?

 

Thanks again,

Dave

[Philip OKeefe]

I really added nothing to that vocal track... it's just a ELUX 251 with a Stedman pop filter, at about 4 - 6" from the source (Julie's mouth ) into a 1272, with a slight touch of Aphex compression going in. A touch of verb is pretty much all I used on the mixdown... very little or no EQ, maybe a bit of compression here or there, but I'd have to go look at my notes again. But honestly, I didn't do much... Julie did all the real work.

 

Thanks for listening, and for the nice words.

[g8bassplayer]

Very very nice .... I'd like to use one of the songs for reference (if there's no objection). Probably 'Don't Tell The Sun'. If I can get my sound close to that, the client will be estatic (me too).

 

Regards,

Dave

[Billster]

It sounds like a pretty intmate group, so I would definitely want everyone present at the same time. Even if you end up adding the vocal later, or re-doing the vocal, at least the guitar and sax playing together.

 

Phil is right about miking the sax - a little distance will make it sound more like the instrument, and the sound does emanate from the open pads. It's not like a brass instrument.

 

And Phil is right again (no wonder he uses that Yoda picture;) )about the panning. I don't recommend anything drastic.

[where02190]

The musical consistency will IMHO suck for this genre of music not doing it live. However, If I was doing this, I'd put up single mic for the sax, a single close mic for the guitar, and a stereo pair and make them play in the same room, no cans, no overdubs. I would then put the singer in the same room, give her some playback via a pair of wedges (wired out of phase and carefully placed to minimize but not eliminate bleed, emulating the natural bleed of the musicians if they were actually there) and again do the tunes no overdubs, no cans.

 

You might have a prayer of it sounding like music then.

 

However, if I had my choice, I'd wait until they could all take the time to do this right.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by where02190:

The musical consistency will IMHO suck for this genre of music not doing it live. ...if I had my choice, I'd wait until they could all take the time to do this right.

agreed.

[Billster]

Originally posted by where02190:

...I'd put up single mic for the sax, a single close mic for the guitar, and a stereo pair and make them play in the same room, no cans, no overdubs...

Would you use the stereo pair and a close mic on the singer if all were present? How would you handle monitoring in that situation?

[where02190]

If all were present, I'd close mic each instrument and vocalist, and put up room mics. It really depends on the room also, If it's a nice sounding room with some space, then I'd work on getting it captured more than if it was just a room, ya know. Options are always good. You don't have to use every track, but it's nice to know they are there if you want.

 

I'd be inclined to go with the Royer on the guitar, the 87 on the sax, and the 414 on the vocal. However you don't say what flavor sax, which would make a difference. I might consider the 609 on the sax as well, especially if it is a tenor, and the 87 on vocal.

[g8bassplayer]

Thanks everyone. It looks like I can only get the sax and guitar players together at the same time. The singer will have to be on a seperate day. I've never tried the "wedgies" idea, but it sounds interesting. This is probably a great chance to experiment a little.

 

I really appreciate everyone sharing from their experiences. It will definitely make for better music.

 

Regards,

Dave

[g8bassplayer]

Hi Where ...

The sax player has two instruments, one is tenor, the other is alto. They'll do 6 or 7 songs, but I'm not sure which songs use which instrument.

 

Since this is a home studio, the rooms are fairly small. This room is about 10' by 15'. I have a rigid fibreglass cloud about 8" below the ceiling and the floor is wood, so there's still some life in the room (not totally dead, but not too lively either). There are glass windows on two opposing walls, one for the console room (10x21), and the other is a drum isolation room.

 

It would be pretty easy to put everyone in the room, if I could just get them all there at the same time. But micing in such a small area could be a bit of a challenge.

 

Regards,

Dave

[Philip OKeefe]

Dave, if they play together, and in the same room, the monitoring issue is a non-issue... they can play without cans if you want... let 'em hear each other acoustically, as they're playing in the room. Of course, as Where mentioned, you can use the wedge trick (I've even done stuff for major releases with full PA speakers to either side of a vocalist, wired out of phase) when you're overdubbing the vocalist.

 

I'd at least TRY recording the guitar and sax together and see how it goes and how you (and they!) like it. You can always go back to "one at a time" if it doesn't work out.

 

As others have mentioned, I'd recommend spot mics for the individual instruments as well as use a stereo pair for the overall room sound if I was tracking them together. With such a small room, you may indeed have some issues... my general rule of thumb is the smaller the room, the deader it should be acoustically, and in general, the closer I tend to move the distant mics. However, if you have a nearby room or hallway that is right next to the tracking room, leave the door open and try tossing some extra mics up in there... you might be pleased with the ambience. Track those mics to seperate tracks too.

[g8bassplayer]

Philip,

I don't have a stereo mic, would a couple of SM81's suffice? I also have SM57's/Beta58's. Kinda wished I had a pair of Oktava's at this point. And yes, there is a hallway next to the room where I can place a condenser. That could be interesting.

Dave

[Philip OKeefe]

Sure... SM81's, while not my favorite mics of all time, can be set up in a variety of different stereo mic configurations... spaced pair, ORTF, coincident, etc.

 

If you can find a good deal on a good pair of Oktavas, jump on 'em. They're inexpensive, and the quality control is spotty at best (when buying them from Gtr Ctr... the stuff at www.oktava.com is more carefully checked ), but the good ones sound really nice... sort of a poor man's Neumann KM84 type sound... not too bright. Definitely less bright than the SM81's.

 

Try that hallway trick and let me know what you think.

[where02190]

Stick that 414 up in omni mode for a room mic.

 

I'd probably go with the U87 for the sax, and that royer ribbon for the guitar. I love ribbons on guitar, soooo smooth.

 

Given the small size of the room there won't be much stereo, and that there is will be IMHO too wide and uncharacteristic, I think the omni 414 will do a nice job of capturing the room. You can slightly (and I stress slightly because I am NOT a fan of hard panning with acoustic music) pan the close mics for some imaging.

[g8bassplayer]

Great ideas. I would have thought the Royer on the sax, and E609/U87 or E609/57 on the guitar cab? 414 in omni sounds like a plan.

[Philip OKeefe]

That's what I would do... Royer on sax and the e609 on guitar if you're tracking them simultaneously. I also agree with the 414 in omni... but OTOH, I might stick THAT in the hallway and use the SM81's in stereo in the room... you can always narrow down the stereo later at mixdown...

[g8bassplayer]

With the Royer on Sax, e609 on the cab, I have the 414 and U87 both still available (U87 in omni for the room, and 414 for the hallway -- or vice-versa)... Could also put the 81's in the room too, pointing off center left and right.

 

Phil, Where, thanks again. This is so much better than my original plan. I can't wait for the session.

[Philip OKeefe]

There you go... 414 or 87 in the hall (I'd probably put the 414 in the hall, but YMMV), set to omni, and the other in the room, also set to omni. Put the SM81's up too, as a XY stereo pair. Close mic the amp with the 609, and use the Royer with the sax. Print everything to individual tracks.

 

Good luck with your session!

[g8bassplayer]

I'll let you know how it goes .... Dave