OT- How'd they ever do this?

[phaeton]

First off, it's been done. The history of Rock is full of examples, some of which are really good examples. But check this out:

 

1) Rock songs with orchestration.

 

I know there are exceptions, but for the most part aren't orchestra players highly-educated (musically), overly professional, somewhat "stuffy" and maybe.... condenscending to rock musicians? This might get more and more true the farther back into time we get.

 

I know there are exceptions, but for the most part, aren't rock musicians usually un-educated (musically), amateurish, brash and obnoxious, and maybe, egotistical and defiant?

 

HTF do you get them to exist in a studio together? To the rockers the classical musicians will start to act more and more like their grandparents, and to the classical musicians, the rockers will be Spinal Tap in the flesh... How do you keep the guy with the french horn from killing the guitarist that steps all over him?

 

Next, who does the writing and interpreting? Let's pretend none of the rockers can read or write music- how do they describe the line they want the string section to follow? Sure, you can eek it out on the guitar or a bass, or a piano, but will you do that for 75+ instruments? The classical musicians *might* be able to do it, but they're probably often not used to picking things up by ear... Can you see this?:

 

"So on this run starting from the minor 6th chord, did you want it to go to a B natural on the fourth and seventh beat?"

 

"Uhh... just listen to it and you should be able to play it"...

 

How much patience would each group have for each other? How could they communicate? How do you stop the "1-5-8 is not a chord!" discussions?

 

2) Vocalised but not vocal vocals.

 

Listen to Clare Torry's vocals on Pink Floyd's Great Gig In The Sky. That's Amazing... Now, htf do you pull THAT off?

Did Roger, David, Rick and Nick pass the pipe around once and go "You know, we need some hawt chick to just blow her lungs out on this"? Okay, so you have 2 approaches:

 

a) Bring in someone and go "okay, here you need to do some "whoaahah"s, and then some "uhhh huhuh" and then some "blaaah lalalalalehlaheh" and then just scream here, and then kinda back off and go "ooooh oohhhh hoohooo" like some pigeon that's just been crushed by the windshield of a bus.."

 

Sure, you could write this all out as sheet music, but... I'm not a vocalist, so chances are, i'd be no good at it. Plain and simple. Someone that can sing like that knows what they're doing. Maybe they can't play guitar or bass like me, but it's all about recognizing who's got the talent for what part.

 

b) You can audition a bunch of people. Just bring em in and say "ok, we'll switch on the music, and you just go nuts with it, kthx?". How much does studio time cost again? Oh, and suppose you get someone that does something that's 90% of what you wanted, right off the cuff. But what if they can't do it for a second take? Or the same way, ever? That's leaving it up for the old hit-or-miss situation that's really hard to deal with.

 

Monster Vocals on side 2 of Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells. There's a bit of controversy over whodunit. But let's assume for a lil bit that it's not Mike Oldfield. How do you find the right person with the right voice and then set them in a recording booth, with a piece of paper that says:

 

Shookow fookowah fikowkifowah

Shookow foookowah fikowikofAHH

 

Huh?

Huuhuhh? (like Scooby Doo)

 

Owwwwwwwww!!! (like a wolf) x2

 

AHHHHHHHHHH!!!! (like a lumberjack with peppers in his eyes)

 

FLAOWWWW! (x4)

 

 

etc..

 

Surely there are tons of other things that have gotten onto vinyl that were "unconventional". Anyone got any tips, stories, experiences, or other?

[Philip OKeefe]

You track the band, and then lay the orchestral stuff on top of that later.

[Philip OKeefe]

Oh, and it's the producer's job to either write out the charts / arrangement, or hire someone qualified to do it.

[Ernest Buckley]

Orchestrators are usually hired for such events. Also the conductor acts as the translator quite often.

 

When you have a vocal like the one mentioned, most likely the vocalists are giving some melody to play with and improvise on.

 

You have to realize these are top notch bands hiring top notch orchestrators, vocalists and orchestras so reading the charts is not an issue. These are PROFESSIONAL musicians who do this for a living so they are damn good.

 

As far as nose in the air from classically trained musicians, usually in these sessions there is a mutual respect for each other. You get to a certain level as a PRO and ego usually goes out the door (or at least it is contained).

[coyote]

In 1969, DeepPurple did a Concerto with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra at Albert Hall. And they encountered the exact scenario phaeton laid out. Malcolm Arnold (RPH conductor) had to convince his players to abide it and take it seriously: "We're about to make history; we might as well make music while we're at it".

 

In 1999, Purple played the Concerto again at Albert Hall, this time with the London Symphony Orchestra. Conductor Phil Mann grew up a Purple fan (as did many in his ensemble), and they had high enthusiasm for the project.

 

In short, times have changed. You'll still encounter such resistance in places, but it's no longer so common.

[Mats Olsson.]

Zappa faced huge problems when working with orchestras (The LSO?). In his autobiography, FZ describes his pain & frustration in great detail.

[Billster]

I reinforce the notion that the orchestral musicians are professionals, and know how to endorse a paycheck. There are some anecdotes in the recent Zappa biography by Barry Miles of some of the musicians on 200 Motels and other Zappa orchestral projects being horrified, etc., but it seemed to be the theatrics more than the music. There are also stories of many musicians enthusiastically participating. So it's individuals.

 

Wordless vocals are great. A talented vocalist can suss out the syllables and sounds needed to articulate a melody - it's almost like scat, but more composed. I think it's a great way to collaborate. As a composer, you can provide some guidance with musical notes, and whether the sound is sustained or percussive, and turn the singer loose.

 

Check out Katie Kisoon on Clapton's "Wonderful Tonight" from the 24 Nights live album.

 

Also, I'm big on

Lisa Thorson , a local artist here in Boston. Give a listen to the clip of "Touch her Soft Lips and Part" from her album Out to Sea.

 

Another favorite of mine is the track "The Gracious Core" from Castalia by Mark Isham.

 

[Botch.]

Having played in orchestras (trombone) most of the guys enjoy doing something a little out of the ordinary. Ever watch their faces during a PDQ Bach show? They're having more fun than the audience!

 

And, as an aside, I think Zappa was having problems because most orchestral players haven't seen those types of tuplets before.

[D. Gauss]

<<2)Listen to Clare Torry's vocals on Pink Floyd's Great Gig In The Sky. That's Amazing... Now, htf do you pull THAT off?

Did Roger, David, Rick and Nick pass the pipe around once and go "You know, we need some hawt chick to just blow her lungs out on this"?>>

 

thats pretty much what they did. producer alan parsons said "i know this chick..."

 

she ended up filing suit against them 'cause they only paid her 50 bucks. she ended up winning a share of the copyright/roalyties. good for her.

 

-d. gauss

[DC Ross]

Looks like d gauss beat me to the punch

Yup, she was a studio vocalist and was paid the hourly rate. She improvised (read: wrote) her vocal line, and was finally (recently?) given writing credit after being urged by her friends to pursue it.

That's the story I done hear tell, anyway

[D. Gauss]

yep, that's what happened. here's the actual story:

 

CLARE TORRY WINS SETTLEMENT AGAINST PINK FLOYD

 

Clare Torry

Clare Torry, vocalist on Pink Floyd's

Dark Side Of The Moon, 1973

On 8th July last year we reported on a rather strange news story - that vocalist Clare Torry was taking Pink Floyd and its record company EMI, to court, suing them for damages and lost earnings.

 

Torry provided the improvised vocal on The Great Gig In The Sky, and was paid the standard fee of £30 for her work on January 23rd 1973. However, some thirty-one years later she claimed that she composed the song, and asked the High Court for monies she believed were due to her, a half-share of copyright ownership and a 50 per cent share, possibly worth millions, of past and future income.

 

Torry said they (the band and EMI) had breached her copyright and asked for damages and for "all illicit copies of the song to be destroyed". This could have resulted in the album being withdrawn from sale temporarily.

 

This week, the High Court judged on the side of Ms Torry, and have awarded her a half-share on copyright ownership of the song. The amount of the out-of-court settlement has not been disclosed, prompting much speculation as to the amount.

 

The argument which won over the High Court was the claim that Ms Torry used a special "wailing technique" which effectively helped to compose the track during its fruition in the studio.

 

The album has, since release, been a high seller, and one of the most well-known releases of all time. Torry has also previously been on very good terms with the band, including an appearance at both nights of Roger Waters' 1987 Wembley shows as part of his encore.

 

----

 

-d. gauss

[fantasticsound]

Bear in mind that George Martin's background, prior to working with the Beatles, was in classical recording. He contributed to the classical elements by recording the orchestral players. While I'm sure there were some who felt above the experience, the musicians who were chosen to play on Beatles' cuts seem to be universally happy to be there. Remember, this was at a time when if you wanted a string section you had to get a string section. No sequenced synths. Very few tracks to play with, so no single instruments mult'd 20 times to sound like a full section.

 

Elton John may have been a classically educated musician, but I'd bet his public personae put off some musicians hired for his sessions... before they recorded with Paul Buckmaster, the genius who wrote all the classic arrangements for the 1970's classics such as Sorry (Seems To Be The Hardest Word), Sixty Years On, and many others. And when he played 7 or 8 shows in Australia in the early 1990's with the Melbourne Symphony, recorded for a live album, it resulted in an amazing combination of his rock band and the symphony performing those old Buckmaster arrangements.

 

I think the keys are:

 

• As previously mentioned, the producer taking charge and recording these elements without the artist/band.
  
• The rock musicians that want strings, horns and other orchestral elements are usually very psyched to see the process in action. It's very cool to watch a professional, orchestral recording session. I had the pleasure to see a bit of one of our recording sessions at Starstruck Entertainment last month. The musicians were stellar and the results came out great. These guys have to cover all kinds of pop music, classical and Broadway tunes.
  

 

And in the end, either money talks or it doesn't. If you're too snobby to play a rock session, as an orchestral musician, then you won't take the gig in the first place. Otherwise, money talks.

[Tedly Nightshade]

I read where that was a first take for Clare. She deserves it, whatever the legalities might be.

 

I had no idea she was only paid 30 pounds!

[fantasticsound]

Clare's situation mirrors Martha Wash's for the vocal on Everybody Dance Now, in which she was hired as a background singer but ended up the lead singer. She won in court and ended up with damages and 15 minutes of celebrity.

[Lee Flier]

People in orchestras by nature have to know how to be professional. If they are getting paid, they shut up and play what's written. It's not like the band calls up a bunch of random classically trained musicians and they all sit there and improvise stuff. The band or producer hires someone who can compose an orchestrated part to go with the song, which has usually already been recorded by the band. The orchestra just shows up and plays the score. And like Botch says, a lot of them are actually pretty good natured about doing things out of the ordinary.

 

One of my favorite stories was the session for "A Day in the Life" where they were recording the big crescendos at the middle and end of the song. The Beatles basically told the orchestra to each start at the lowest note of their instrument and work their way up to the highest, and to NOT listen to what anyone else was doing. This was completely against all the training that any orchestra member has ever had, as you are taught that you have to be one of the group and always follow the conductor and others in the group. To be asked to be individuals and ignore each other was a totally new thing! But obviously they pulled it off, and apparently most of them got a kick out of it.

 

And most rock bands who would bother to hire an orchestra would have enough respect for them to be able to work with them, plus they would have an intermediary (producer or arranger) who would be able to help them communicate with each other.

[phaeton]

Everybody Dance Now

 

I.e. C+C Music Factory?

 

iirc they also brought in someone else to play her part for the video, because she was considered "too fat n ugly" for video...

 

That's cold...

[alfonso]

If you have a look to the great Yes Symphonic DVD, you'll notice that the European Festival Orchestra members are incredibly happy, but in this case, if the suspect I have they are the orchestra playing for the horrid "Eurofestival", you can well imagine why...

BTW i can ensure that playing "Gates of Delirium" or "Close to the edge" it's something that would turn down any snobbish attitude towards a group like Yes, even if most of them can't read music and play all by ear.

[Abnorm]

You can rent from Netflix or wherever the DVD "Classic Recordings: The Making of Dark Side of the Moon." In it they tell of Clare, that she did "Great Gig" in one take and that she apologized to the band, thinking that she could have done better ... but the band were just sitting there with their jaws dropped.

 

Other good moments include Roger Waters explaining where all his lyrical ideas come from; and David Gilmour showing how to play "Breathe."

[phaeton]

Classic Recordings: The Making of Dark Side of the Moon.

 

I'll have to watch that, foh scheezi! $5 says it'll be as enjoyable as Live At Pompeii

[TheSoundman]

EQ mag has a bunch of "how'd they do that?" stories every month. This may seem like a shameless plug, but I don't work for them. I just hear stuff every day and wonder how they did it...