Mixing OTB....what are my mixer choices???

[ryst]

I have read a lot of different threads on mixing ITB and OTB. I think i have made up my mind. I want real knobs and faders. So my setup would consist of good mics and mic pres, good AD and DA converters (I am drooling over the Apogee AD16x right now). A good convultion reverb and sound design plug ins are fine for me. When I mix I want everything to run back out through an analog mixer. So here is what I am thinking about. A 16-24 (I would really like 24 channels if I can afford it) channel analog mixer with a good eq and mic pres. Anyone have any experience with Soundcraft, A&H, the new Mackie Onyx? Maybe even an older vintage console that isn't too expensive used? Something that I won't grow out of quickly.

[KenElevenShadows]

I don't really have any comments about what would be good to mix OTB, but Soundcraft and A&H are both pretty good. I personally really like that sorta gooey Harrison or Neotek console sound, but I've never actually owned any of their stuff. But that's a certain kind of sound, and is certainly not for everyone.

 

As far as converters go, I am using an Apogee Rosetta 800 A/D and D/A converter, and I can't say enough nice things about it. I know this sounds ridiculous since it's really expensive, but I actually think it's a bargain. This is the unit that finally convinced me to stop recording analog and record on Pro Tools.

 

And I believe that the AD16X is supposed to be slightly nicer than the Rosetta!!!

[KenElevenShadows]

Ryst, it just occurred to me that a lot of people really regard Speck highly. See if they make anything for OTB mixing. Fletcher at Mercenary might know something about this. I've met the guy who designs Speck at a rec.audio.pro dinner a few years ago and thought that the guy was super cool, super nice, really low-key.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

http://www.daking.com/New%20Site%20by%20Juan%20Carlos/products.html

[ryst]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

I don't really have any comments about what would be good to mix OTB, but Soundcraft and A&H are both pretty good. I personally really like that sorta gooey Harrison or Neotek console sound, but I've never actually owned any of their stuff. But that's a certain kind of sound, and is certainly not for everyone.

 

As far as converters go, I am using an Apogee Rosetta 800 A/D and D/A converter, and I can't say enough nice things about it. I know this sounds ridiculous since it's really expensive, but I actually think it's a bargain. This is the unit that finally convinced me to stop recording analog and record on Pro Tools.

 

And I believe that the AD16X is supposed to be slightly nicer than the Rosetta!!!

Ken,

 

So you mix totally ITB with plug ins? or do you use outboard gear? Also, if plan on getting an analog mixer, at what point would it be better to stay ITB? For instance, would this A&H HERE

be worth buying or would I have to get something much more expensive in order to get better mixes than I would going ITB with plug ins? Assuming, of coarse, that I know what I am doing....

[where02190]

What's your budget?

I've never been an AHB fan, the upper end boards sound ok but the midline and lower line console preamps have a very tiny sweetspot window, and outside that window they sound like ass IMHO. Soundcraft stuff is ok, and the Onyx consoles are very nice indeed.

 

You might check into a Soundtracs (not to be confused with Soundcraft) Solologic. They were made in 24x8x24 and 32x8x32 input frames. Nice pres, very quiet operation, 6 aux sends configurable for pre(hp) or post(efx), very musical 4 band bristish style eq, Fader and mute automation, 8 VCA groups, 8 subs, 4 stereo returns, blah blah blah. We have a 24 input version here, and absolutely love it. The automation is smooth and easy to operate, sonically it sounds fantastic. You can pick them up for $2500-3000 used. Superb support un the US as well.

[ryst]

Originally posted by where02190:

What's your budget?

I've never been an AHB fan, the upper end boards sound ok but the midline and lower line console preamps have a very tiny sweetspot window, and outside that window they sound like ass IMHO. Soundcraft stuff is ok, and the Onyx consoles are very nice indeed.

 

You might check into a Soundtracs (not to be confused with Soundcraft) Solologic. They were made in 24x8x24 and 32x8x32 input frames. Nice pres, very quiet operation, 6 aux sends configurable for pre(hp) or post(efx), very musical 4 band bristish style eq, Fader and mute automation, 8 VCA groups, 8 subs, 4 stereo returns, blah blah blah. We have a 24 input version here, and absolutely love it. The automation is smooth and easy to operate, sonically it sounds fantastic. You can pick them up for $2500-3000 used. Superb support un the US as well.

where02190,

 

I was waiting for your view on this.

$3000 isn't out of my range as long as I can use it for a long time and not grow out of it quickly.

It's gonna be a while before i buy a mixer. But I always research for a long time before I buy anything major like this. I will check out that mixer. Thanks. The only thing I don't know right now is whether I should buy the Apogee AD16X first or after I buy the mixer. In fact, If I find out that I feel the same way that Ken feels after he bought his Apogee, I might not need a mixer. Too many decisions.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by ryst:

Ken,

 

So you mix totally ITB with plug ins? or do you use outboard gear? Also, if plan on getting an analog mixer, at what point would it be better to stay ITB? For instance, would this A&H HERE

be worth buying or would I have to get something much more expensive in order to get better mixes than I would going ITB with plug ins? Assuming, of coarse, that I know what I am doing.... [/QB]

I mix completely ITB now (although I recently switched over from tracking/mixing completely analog with an Akai MG1214). I'd love to know the answers to what you are asking, but I don't know.

 

All the songs here are mixed in the box. Now, maybe they'd sound better if I mixed them OTB, but hey, I'm working with what I have and what I know right now, and quite frankly, these things sound purty good. A lot of people think this is analog, but it's all straight into Pro Tools, mixed ITB, and in this case, converted to MP3s via iTunes.

 

Lynn Fuston has a CD of comparisons of mixes ITB and OTB, if you are interested. I think it's called "Awesome DAW Sum" or something like that, and is available on his web site, through Mercenary Audio, etc.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah I second where's call about the Soundtracs desks - those are great.

 

And yes I think it's worth it to mix with a real console, even a fair to middling one, as opposed to in the box. There is a noticable different at the end of the day.

 

I don't think Lynn's Awesome DAW-SUM CD is any real indication of the differences, BTW, although I figured at the time it was done that people would use it to draw bogus conclusions. That's not a slight toward Lynn by any means, I think the experiment was useful so far as it goes, but it's only ONE piece of data out of many that need to be evaluated before you can really make an informed decision. Lynn's disk ONLY compares the raw summing, not the consoles vs. DAW's in any meaningful sense as far as a real mix. When you add lots of fades, gain changes, plugins or outboard gear, and other stuff inherent in a real mix, the differences become quite apparent.

[ryst]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

Originally posted by ryst:

Ken,

 

So you mix totally ITB with plug ins? or do you use outboard gear? Also, if plan on getting an analog mixer, at what point would it be better to stay ITB? For instance, would this A&H HERE

be worth buying or would I have to get something much more expensive in order to get better mixes than I would going ITB with plug ins? Assuming, of coarse, that I know what I am doing....

I mix completely ITB now (although I recently switched over from tracking/mixing completely analog with an Akai MG1214). I'd love to know the answers to what you are asking, but I don't know.

 

All the songs here are mixed in the box. Now, maybe they'd sound better if I mixed them OTB, but hey, I'm working with what I have and what I know right now, and quite frankly, these things sound purty good. A lot of people think this is analog, but it's all straight into Pro Tools, mixed ITB, and in this case, converted to MP3s via iTunes.

 

Lynn Fuston has a CD of comparisons of mixes ITB and OTB, if you are interested. I think it's called "Awesome DAW Sum" or something like that, and is available on his web site, through Mercenary Audio, etc. [/QB]

Ken,

 

Oh poopy! I forgot about that. I am going to order that ASAP. Thanks for the reminder. So when you mix ITB, you use nothing but plug-ins? no outboard comps/eq's/fx? just curious. I'll check out your mixes when i get home tonight.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by ryst:

Oh poopy! I forgot about that. I am going to order that ASAP.

You may want to read my post above though.

[ryst]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Yeah I second where's call about the Soundtracs desks - those are great.

 

And yes I think it's worth it to mix with a real console, even a fair to middling one, as opposed to in the box. There is a noticable different at the end of the day.

 

I don't think Lynn's Awesome DAW-SUM CD is any real indication of the differences, BTW, although I figured at the time it was done that people would use it to draw bogus conclusions. That's not a slight toward Lynn by any means, I think the experiment was useful so far as it goes, but it's only ONE piece of data out of many that need to be evaluated before you can really make an informed decision. Lynn's disk ONLY compares the raw summing, not the consoles vs. DAW's in any meaningful sense as far as a real mix. When you add lots of fades, gain changes, plugins or outboard gear, and other stuff inherent in a real mix, the differences become quite apparent.

Hi Lee!

 

So you think that even the new 16 channel Mackie Onyx which is relatively inexpensive would be a good alternative to mixing ITB with plug ins? And you think the differences would still be significant?

[ryst]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by ryst:

Oh poopy! I forgot about that. I am going to order that ASAP.

You may want to read my post above though.

Credit card is still in wallet and will stay there.

[KenElevenShadows]

Oh, sorry, didn't answer your other question. Almost exclusively plug-ins. I do have two FMR RNCs (compressors), but I've been using them less and less, just a little for the bass here, maybe, or a little for an erratic sounding vocal, but not very much. I try really really hard to get everything sounding just the way I want it to going straight in, and then use a little EQ afterwards.

 

Oh, one other thing...I do use reverb plug-ins (RealVerb mostly) a bit, but I primarily use a TC M300 reverb hardware unit that goes in digitally (S/PDIF).

 

So, plug-ins...I use Waves EQ, Bomb Factory Pulteq EQ, Frohmage (mostly for "effin'" things up) and Waves compressors if I need them. I don't like to use that much compression, but sometimes it helps.

~~~~~~~~

Lee Flier is usually right on the mark about audio (and, well, most everything else). I don't know anything about Lynn Fuston's CD, but you know, it might be helpful...but Lee undoubtedly makes a good point about it. And I always like to listen to people with good judgment and wisdom!

[ryst]

What about this senario. Let's say you have a 24 track board but you want to mix down 32-48 tracks. Do you submix in the computer to get down to 24 outputs? Is there any other way?

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by ryst:

What about this senario. Let's say you have a 24 track board but you want to mix down 32-48 tracks. Do you submix in the computer to get down to 24 outputs?

Yeah, you can just send stems out... like if you have a bunch of backing vocals you can mix them down to 2 channels in the DAW and then send those out to 2 channels on the board. I try to do it for non critical stuff like backing vocals, percussion, etc. because I find it important not to submix drums.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by ryst:

So you think that even the new 16 channel Mackie Onyx which is relatively inexpensive would be a good alternative to mixing ITB with plug ins? And you think the differences would still be significant?

Well I haven't heard the Onyx yet, but I've heard quite a few inexpensive consoles that still sound really good compared to ITB. I would imagine the Onyx is pretty cool though.

[where02190]

The Mackies are nice for the money, but no automation. If you're running DAW to the console, you can write the automation there, but IMHO they wouldn't be a big analog sound.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah I agree, once you start doing gain changes and processing in the DAW, you lose a lot of the benefits of OTB mixing.

 

I love automation but have done lots of mixes without it, and I can live without it if I have to.

[KenElevenShadows]

Wtih DAWs, do you find that the more gain changes you employ, the more adverse the affect? For instance, would raising and lowering the volume of a track affect the audio quality more adversely than simply dropping the volume? Just curious.

[theblue1]

Hey, Ken, only the first mp3 on your examples page is playing... the other two are missing in action.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

Wtih DAWs, do you find that the more gain changes you employ, the more adverse the affect? For instance, would raising and lowering the volume of a track affect the audio quality more adversely than simply dropping the volume?

No, I don't think lowering the volume is any better or worse than raising and lowering... simple attenuation in the digital domain is actually pretty complex. But I do find that the more processing goes on (and that includes volume changes and crossfades) the more it tends to degrade the audio.

[theblue1]

Since folks often use the term "stem mixing" when talking about subgrouped sends from a D-A to an analog board, I thought it might be helpful to put up a link to this article on 'classic' stem mixing:

 

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_divide_conquer/index.html

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by theblue1:

Hey, Ken, only the first mp3 on your examples page is playing... the other two are missing in action.

Thanks. I've had nothing but difficulties in the last month with random stuff disappearing off my web site. Anyway, I've uploaded them again and they should be working.

 

LInk to ITB recordings:

Link to ITB recordings at my studio

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some "OTB" (just kidding - they're analog recordings but mixed to a consumer DAT; I think these MP3s are lower-res recordings, too. ) recordings (all of the following are DIRECT links to MP3s):

"Hands" MP3 (direct link to MP3)

"Will I" MP3 (direct link)

 

Now, none of this is supposed to be "scientific" or anything, but I just thought it might be fun to hear some of the differences.

 

But it's not even close to "scientific". The equipment is largely different, the room is different...whatever. Hey, it's all for fun.

 

Thank you for telling me about the broken link.

[theblue1]

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

Thanks. I've had nothing but difficulties in the last month with random stuff disappearing off my web site. I'm uploading it now. It should be working.

Yeah... my old neighborhood was like that. I once had a park bench and a big potted palm stolen off my front porch.

[KenElevenShadows]

Okay, they're up there. I just edited my last message.

[where02190]

Stem mixes are a lifesaver. I always do vocal -, mix - and whatever else seems appropriate. While it's not regularly that I need them, when I do it puts a big smile on a clients face when I can spit out a new mix with "just a touch more vocal" in about 5 minutes instead of 4 hours.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by theblue1:

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

[qb]Yeah... my old neighborhood was like that. I once had a park bench and a big potted palm stolen off my front porch.

Heh...reminds me of the time my friend and I were sitting in his car talking and listening to his CB. It's two in the morning, and all of a sudden this guy runs out of the alley holding a hammock over his head. We looked at each other like; 'You godda be kidding me....a hammock!?!?'

 

Guess you had to be there.

 

Okay, back to your interesting discussion about mixing.

 

By the way, I like to work with a mixer. None of this 'virtual in the computer' stuff for me. I think you're asking for headaches to do that. I know processing power and software is doing amazing stuff these days, but nothing ever works as well as advertised.

[KenElevenShadows]

Maybe that will be the next step...automated board? But you know, I'm getting ADAMs, sound treatment, a Big Knob...I've blown my budget for the next year or two!!!

[Alndln]

Originally posted by ryst:

Mixing OTB

For a second,I thought you were refering to this OTB www.nassauotb.com/home.aspx Well,with 10 or so horse racing tracks going on at once,someones doing the audio(track announcers)mixing.