Chip McDonald Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 It's funny, I was complaining somewhere on these boards a while back about there not being something cheap I could use as a replacement for tracking, with the intent on later downloading into my computer for multi-track editing... .... and now the Mackie MDR is coming out - 24 tracks of 24/96 for $2,000, ethernet port; and I suppose the Alesis equivalent is basically as affordable. SO, It occurs to me that what this effectively does (in combination with the "mediocre at best" Chinese mics and computer-platform multitracks) is alter the recording world from something of an oligarchy, a location-based value-added process, to something akin to the way playing an instrument currently is today. You don't hire a guitar player because he has a Strat, but because of what he can do with it.... I've always been pestered to record someone or another, but always turned it down because either I didn't have the gear to do it decently or they didn't. At one point in my life I thought "yeah, I'll work towards getting a little project studio happening and try to use it to make ends meet or "whatever"". That slowly became pointless as the price of recording kept creeping down. So, I still get requests from people to do things, but it's an impossible situation of using this guy's room, this guy's this and over here that guy's stuff, etc... and having to deal with the egos along the way and the weirdness: "uhmm.. well... uhm.. we *could* use that 3630 set at infinity:1 for the vocal, but, uh,,,"; "well you know, maybe having the overheads peaking the preamps isn't a good thing, maybe?"; "uhm, well, uhm, maybe just going into the Mackie without going through your ART Tube MP preamp might be better, you know? Uhm...?"... etc. HOWEVER, with 24 tracks in this situation - and my modicum of mics - I'll be able to accept some projects. Granted, not like I'd like, but I'm not exactly the Sultan of Brunei here financially... My "Thought About the Future" is that this technology really changes things into a situation where the *engineer/producer* is functioning much like a musician. I can leverage my abilities/skill with audio now like I do guitar (granted, not at the same level, but...). When *everyone* has the potential capability similarly speaking (no, don't jump me about the Record Plant or some such, I'm obviously not comparing that level) it means people will start considering the *engineer* as much - or moreso - than the gear. The sketchy factor here is the requirement of utilizing existing spaces to track in. I can deal with that I think, much moreso than the overhead of trying to pay the rent on a room I've tweaked the acoustics on. It actually holds a particular allure to me for certain types of music and the likely prospects of recording environments I expect. THE POINT BEING I think there's going to be a renaissance for engineers coming soon, a greater awareness of the skill/talent required. When bands coming up figure out there's 10 guys in town that theoretically has the gear to make a listenable "demo", but 1 or 2 seems to make things that sounds better - that finally seperates the engineer from the gear. Which is how I think most people think of it in general until they reach a certain point of awareness.... Already people are starting to realize it's not neccessarily a smart thing to pay Mr. Q across town X amount per hour just because he has a Finalizer and a Neumann when Mr. Z on the other side of town has "ok" gear, but really knows how to utilize it in different situations. For those of you living in the more rarified stratum of the Industry at Large, up until now what sells a project at a low level is what gear is involved - the engineer is seldom considered in general (at a certain admittedly pathetic entry level. The days of "LCD Hypnotism" ("dude, we've got to use that studio - look at all of that gear!") might be over, and maybe people who don't flat-line mixes and so forth might have a chance to come to the fore. Idealism will be the death of me I'm sure.... While scraping the bottom of the barrel. I know this is totally bottom-feeder stuff, and it won't really affect the opposite side of the spectrum, but unfortunately I have to think about such things. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rold Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 WORD meh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 That movement is already underfoot, and it comes with way lesser gear than alot of audiophiles really want to either admit or accept. I see more and more folks buying gear instead of paying the local studio's, also read about some of our hero's doing it on the cheap with fantastic results. In a nutshell, it's all about getting the best results with what you got. I've been waiting as well for the next cool thing to come along, not to buy, but to drive the price of the existing gear down in price so I can live peacefully in my own home without the financial and emotional warfare that comes with making large purchases (seemingly frivilous to a spouse or partner). I've always loved reading about the underdogs of the world, doing it themselves out of necessity, and getting national play off their recordings. To me that's way more exciting than hearing of so and so with a multimillion dollar budget recording with state of the art stuff that nobody but God and Paul McCartney can afford. Just my view from suburb hell, Virginia Beach. This message has been edited by strat0124 on 08-14-2001 at 09:08 AM Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted August 14, 2001 Share Posted August 14, 2001 I think we've been living in this kind of world since the ADAT was released. At least, that was around the time when most of the higher end analog studios where I live started to go belly up... The little project-studio type places sprouted up and closed down just as quickly... The bands who were making money (i.e. the bands who could afford to record) simply bought their own gear. From a DIY and gear standpoint, everything since the ADATs has been icing on the cake! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-14-2001 at 09:10 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rold Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 IMO there is no gear that is an adequate substitute for a good room and a good engineer. Compare a U87 running through an avalon into a RADAR, with the source picked up in a room run over by audible modes and flutter echoes with a newbie at the helm with an NT1 running through a 586 into a nuendo system in a great room with a great vet engineer. You'll know who was who, I'll gaurantee that... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] meh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 what really makes economic sense and a lot of artists do is to buy the gear, record the project (with or without a hired engineer), mix at a commerical studio, and then sell the gear at the end of the project. you end up with some money in your pocket at the end of it all (or at least owing less to the label).... -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippie Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 I would be suprised if the amatuer home recordist came to the point of thinking, "well, maybe I just don't know how to record, I need to get a pro in here." These people have made the financial investment in the gear and are hell-bent on doing it themselves, no matter how shitty. All the ads for DIY recording equipment are about how "this here device sounds exactly like the pros use in million dollar studios, only better!, you don't need those expensive studios anymore!" But these ads omit the human factor of experience that goes into great recordings. In two days, it won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicMan Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 I agree, it IS happening. 100% of my business since I opened my basement studio up last August, has been musicians and artists looking for someone who can double as producer. I think on the local level, word of mouth about a particular persons facililty will reign supreme instead of the gear that is in it. -john My Music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duhduh Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 "Ready to go right out of the box with 24 channels of analog I/O" "24 channels of Analog I/O standard" Is this for real? "Meat is the only thing you need beside beer! Big hunks of meat and BEER!!...Lots of freakin' BEER." "Hey, I'm not Jesus Christ, I can't turn water into wine. The best I can do is turn beer into urine." Zakk Wylde http://www.hepcnet.net/bbssmilies/super.gif http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15_1_109.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by Hippie: [b]...amateur home recordist...These people have made the financial investment in the gear and are hell-bent on doing it themselves, no matter how shitty.[/b][/quote] I think THIS is the real reality...only after they've tried and tried and failed, will some of the "home DIY kids" search out for a competent engineer/producer. I've ranted on other threads about the bad consequences of all these new "one click" toys that are out there. These toys attempt to remove the "mystery" from the recording world, but most of the time they fail...though at that point it doesn't matter much to the manufacturers because many "home hobbyists" have already spent their money. I'm not against newer, cheaper "pro" gear...shit it sure saves my wallet a bit...it's just that there is the implication, that along with the cheaper but higher quality gear, experience and real knowledge can somehow be circumvented, because it has been "packaged in" with this new gear. Of course, some "home hobbyist" might actually go on to bigger and better things. There should be a warning label on this gear: [b]"Use at your own risk, can cause false expectations and visions of grandeur in some people." [/b] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b] I think THIS is the real reality...only after they've tried and tried and failed, will some of the "home DIY kids" search out for a competent engineer/producer. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [/b][/quote] Or....perhaps they learn from their mistakes and manage to become competent themselves? I think these guys aren't trying to cop a corporate rock groove, they are blazin their own trails. This forum alone is jam packed with DIY recordists. And though there are alot of schooled engineers here, I'd guess there are also alot of self taught here as well. Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trash Monkey Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Absolutely Strat, with the exception of kids whose parents are simply going to buy them anything they want, said kid tries to record in their bedroom, mess in the making. Musicians in general are fed up with $125 per hour rates at the local butcher shop to STILL get shitty engineering and or production. I think there are more people like myself that out of necessity have gotten into their own studios TO HELP THEIR FELLOW MUSICIANS PUT OUT A GREAT PRODUCT! All in one box studios are good, and a great way to demo your material for pre production in a studio but still aren't on the level of a mid grade DAW based studio. One thing I see too often is a band comes in and they aren't prepared for the session. The "Oh, we never wrote that last verse" or "What was it I was doing for that outro solo?" type of thing. Your $$$ if you want to waste them "rehersing" in the studio. But there is NOTHING like getting some real talent in, nurturing them through the process and at the end of the day sit back listen to the results and go "OH Yeah!" I keep my rates low, and if I spot true talent that's broke I will even work out a plan with them so they can reach that A&R guy, club owner or whomever to get into the ears of the right people. As mentioned in another post, you can have all the SSL's in the world but if you can't use it its just another piece of furniture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
- Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by strat0124: [b] Or....perhaps they learn from their mistakes and manage to become competent themselves? I think these guys aren't trying to cop a corporate rock groove, they are blazin their own trails. This forum alone is jam packed with DIY recordists. And though there are alot of schooled engineers here, I'd guess there are also alot of self taught here as well. [/b][/quote] AMEN, Strat!!! Don't forget that a deliberately lo-fi "bad engineering" vibe is also accepted -- and even desired -- in certain musical circles (like [url=http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=129799877/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/artistid=GUIDED+BY+VOICES/itemid=112350]Guided by Voices[/url] ). Not everyone wants to sound pristine or even "trashy" in a "good" way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Hey Trash-Monkey.....that is very cool. Glad to hear that attitude in action. Georgia is lucky to have you! Gene Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trash Monkey Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Thanks Strat-It's my passion I've GOT to do it. I'm very lucky to have a wife of 19 years and 4 beautiful children that give me great support. I even built a 1/4 pipe for skating in the back of the studio, about 3500 square total and the rooms only use about half that. You know, even my oldest (8 year old son) really digs coming down on the weekends if I do some mixing, overdibs or whatever and he's really learning. I let him come in and watch a couple of months ago when I had a close friend recording that wouldn't mind him being there and I think I hooked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 <> I'm not sure that is the implication. I think it's more along the lines of it is now easier to get *sonically acceptable* results due to the improvements in gear, but it still takes a lot more than gear or good sound to create a great musical experience. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 [quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]<> I'm not sure that is the implication. I think it's more along the lines of it is now easier to get *sonically acceptable* results due to the improvements in gear, but it still takes a lot more than gear or good sound to create a great musical experience.[/b][/quote] Somebody say Amen!!!!!!! I see the new gear kinda like the days when I was a photog way back when. The new Canon AE-1 came out, automatically adjusted aperature and shutter speed. Did it take good pictures? Oh yeah....but were they as good as my old Yashica twin lens reflex? Oh hell no......it was just easier. That doesn't mean that an AE-1 in the hands of someone who KNOWS the basics won't shoot awesome photos......catch my drift? Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 <> [quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]I'm not sure that is the implication. I think it's more along the lines of it is now easier to get *sonically acceptable* results due to the improvements in gear, but it still takes a lot more than gear or good sound to create a great musical experience.[/b][/quote] Well...that's kinda' the same thing, just different words. Some...SOME(NOT ALL)...people do believe that if they buy the lastest "one-click gizmo", that they are on their way to "studio quality" productions...not realizing that it takes soooooo much more than just some high-end converters and a simple digital editing application to get that "studio quality". They are either being misled or they are misunderstanding the capability of those "one click gizmos", and based on that...SOME(these days more and more) people are convinced that they are putting out great stuff. But everyday you hear/read about how many new releases are shitty sounding, with no dynamics or depth of production...and many do come from these "one click gizmos". I do agree that in the hands of some people, great music can probably be made by *rubbing two sticks together*, so I'm not saying that the "gizmos" are to blame. It' just that whole... short-cut-instant-gratification-anyone-can-do-this-shit mentality...that is possibly the problem...but I've already explored that turf. This message has been edited by miroslav on 08-16-2001 at 11:18 AM miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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