the fine line between confidence and arrogance

[ryst]

I have been browsing www.craigslist.org, the local papers here in ATL, and online for people who advertise their "business". It seems like there are a lot of people who call themselves producers and they say things like "very talented producer ready to make your next hit" or something like "we got mad skillz to make yo' music hot, fool!". Is this arrogance or do these quotes really hold any water?

It seems like they are so desparate for business that they will say anything to make some money. I also go to different indie music sites like myspace.com and find a lot of bands describe their own music as "emotional and powerful"....LOL Is this what more and more people have to do these days to get attention? Is being humble a good way to succeed anymore?

[Billster]

I don't think being humble has ever been a good way to succeed in entertainment. It certainly hasn't worked for me, and I got mad skillz (!) I'm just humble about them

 

Seriously, marketing hype is marketing hype. Most people se through it for what it is. I beleive it is more constructive to be reasonably humble in your promotion. It gives you a step toward sustainability.

 

If you call yourself the next Beatles, or Prince, or whatever; you had better be that good, or people will see you once, say "oh, yeah " and move on.

 

Be honest. Are you really the next Prince?

 

If you promote yourself for what you are, I think people are more likely to appreciate the effort on its own merits, and if they like what they hear (or see, or both) are going to stick around for more.

 

Specifically, "ready to make your next hit" and "emotional & powerful" don't bother me; though emotional & powerful is getting pretty cliche.

 

Check this out for hype in it\'s most concentrated form.

[coyote]

Take this as profiling if you want, but those ads are geared to a different demographic than your average singer/songwriter. They are geared to the rap/hiphop production crowd. It's a trash-talkin', in-yo-face culture where big talk is where it's at, along with BIG bling-bling and pimped-out rides.

 

But it's really nothing new, nor is it limited to one culture. As Ian Gillan wrote 35 years ago:

"Nobody knows who's real and who's fakin'

Everybody's shoutin' out loud

It's only the glitter and shine that gets through..."

[Tedster]

This is really a good thread to pursue, not so much (IMHO) the "are the ads trash-talking or do they deliver" sense, as in what Billster was talking about, with his first sentence.

 

I can relate, as I'm having this very correspondence with someone. I have been a musical Eeyore for quite some time, and, while I never could go out and say "I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread"...I often have found myself going the other way. Mainly because my experience has shown me that just when you're starting to feel good, or at least comfortable, with your abilities, someone comes along and blows you out of the water.

 

But, should that keep us from being confident in our abilities? Just because you're a middle-aged blues guitarist, you shouldn't be ready to hang up your spurs when some 13 year old kid plays Yngwie-isms accurately. That's the biz. There will always be the excellent, the good, the adequate, and the not-so-adequate...even at the professional level. I've heard tons of stories about my own personal guitar heroes getting blown off the stage by some young upstart. Yeah, it probably bothers them, but just because someone is phenomenal doesn't mean you aren't good.

 

There's a sign on the wall of the local high school choir room, which reads "What a dull world this would be if only the best bird in the woods sang..." So, I guess, I need to be more confident of my abilities...not in an arrogant, bullshitty way. Most people can see right through that. Just in a confident way.

[Billster]

Hey Ted, I think a big thing was in your last paragraph: "I need to be more confident in my abilities."

 

Nobody will ever be better at being you than you! If you are confident that you are doing the best you can offer, not being Yngwie/Prince/whoever is not going to matter. Whatever your goal is, making it yours will give you confidence.

 

Then you need just enough arrogance to market it as the greatest thing ever. No, seriously, just enough belief to offer what you achieved for yourself as being worth someone else's interest.

[ryst]

Originally posted by billster:

Check this out for hype in it\'s most concentrated form.

Ouch...I read that thread. That's the type of shit that I am talking about.

 

I just feel that if your work was really good, people would know about it without you having to demand their attention. No matter how much technology improves and changes the way we communicate, word of mouth always seems to be the best way to get heard. I don't think I could ever even call a studio for questions when they are so arrogant in their advertising. It's such a turn-off to me. Also, when I see a band online describing their own music, it seems so self-indulgent that I just laugh, and then when I hear the music, it's such a let down because their description holds no water. Just empty words. The people I admire in the music industry and other people in life that I look up to don't seem to have this arrogance. Steve Albini has a work ethic that he follows and he is getting drilled for it over at www.prosoundweb.com. Yet I have seen nothing from his website or anything he has written that seems to be arrogant. He gets plenty of returned clients from his work and many more new ones from word of mouth. I guess I wish their were more people out there like that. I know there are a few, but all the other assholes are stinking up the place!!!

[Michelle ggurl]

Also it's worth noting that there is a big difference between blowing smoke up everyone's ass and really delivering the goods. I know you know this, but I thought I'd say it to balance out the fact that the reason hype works is because it illicits an immediate emotional response.

 

I've had the pleasure of working with some musicians who are recognized masters in their field. One man I am thinking about right now, I just saw a lecture he gave at Stanford University yesterday, as one of the artists in residence there.

 

He is a dynamic speaker, incredible musician, and deep, caring person. He is so humble it's ridiculous ... not in a self-effacing way, but his confidence is quiet. It's like he's a servant of the music, not his ego. And he has the resume to back it up; you can't lack confidence and answer the call to play with some of the cats he's played with. Most of the truly good musicians around here seem to be like that; they may be quirky or cocky in some way, but overall they're never too hip to do their job, if you know what I mean.

 

I don't know about Craigslist in your area, but around here, I honestly haven't found it useful for finding musicians I want to work with. I've auditioned with many ... word of mouth and chance meetings at gigs, etc. really seem to have worked best for me.

[Bruce Swedien]

Good thought......

 

Brucie sez----->Arrogance can not talk to confidence. In my estimation anyone who is arrogant is first an A___ H___. Arrogance means a high degree of Pretentiousness.... Pretentious people are very, VERY boring!!!

 

To be confident means that you have your act together, big time.

 

However, If you are confident to the point of arrogance, you should be taken out behind the barn and put out of your misery!!! As soon as possible!!!!

 

Brucie the Viking!!!!

[Sp3nc3r]

I think that arrogance comes from a deep personal need to make oneself feel superior at the expense of make others feel inferior. I find arrogant people to be needlessly vindictive in this way - mostly stemming from an over-active self esteem complex (or too little). Sort of like "I rock and you suck, because I RAWK!"

 

And I'll second Bruce's motion for the "Arrogance Barn-Beating" Bill Proposition 2A. Vote "yes" on Prop 2A

 

Cheers!

Spencer

[Billster]

Originally posted by ryst:

Also, when I see a band online describing their own music, it seems so self-indulgent that I just laugh, and then when I hear the music, it's such a let down because their description holds no water. Just empty words.

The thing is, it is so hard to get that first notice. If you see an add for a new Prince album, or Eric Clapton album, those are like "brand names" that you can feel reasonably assured of certain qualities. If a performer is not well known, you need some weasely marketing words to substitute for saying "In the style of Prince", because, like I said, one really doesn't want to go around comparing themselves to Prince or any other legendary performer.

 

Catch 22:

too much hype = big potential to underwhelm the audience

 

too humble = nobody notices in the first place.

[Tedster]

Originally posted by billster:

Catch 22:

too much hype = big potential to underwhelm the audience

 

too humble = nobody notices in the first place.

You're absolutely right on on the second count. Odd thing, I think many people wouldn't know "good" if it walked up and smacked their bare behind. They need to be told...they need hype.

 

Which brings up the first point...if you do put out a lot of hype...someone is ALWAYS going to be underwhelmed, even if the show is great. So you might as well shoot a big dose (not too much) of hype in there...and sell the act.

[KenElevenShadows]

Double post. Can't delete post.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by billster:

I don't think being humble has ever been a good way to succeed in entertainment. It certainly hasn't worked for me, and I got mad skillz (!) I'm just humble about them

Agreed, being humble doesn't work for marketing. Since everyone else is bragging, exaggerating, when you come off as humble, it looks strange.

 

I still can't believe the people who say that they're mastering engineers, and you go to their house, and they've got an M-Box and Behringer Truths in their bedroom. Or someone who says that they're a producer or recording engineer, and they don't know the difference between a dynamic and a condenser microphone.

 

Hopefully they'll somehow hear my work and then know that I got mad skillz.

[jeff strong]

It seems like our society has created this need to make things bigger than life when selling a product. This is what makes it so hard for an artist to sell themselves. I mean how do you blow their own horn and not make it distasteful?

 

The solution (IMHO)? Let someone else blow your horn. If you're going to market yourself I think using quotes from other people is the way to go. There's a big difference between someone else saying you're the next Prince and you claiming it.

 

As uncomfortable as it may be, I suggest asking for quotes from satisfied clients/customers/listeners and using the in your marketing. This lends much more credibility to the statements.

 

I also think it's important to separate the person from the marketing image. Just because an artist has hype around them doesn't mean that they act that way in person (unless they're so deluded as to believe the hype themselves. Then they should be taken behind said barn).

 

Oh, and arrogant people suck :-).

 

Jeff

[Angelo Clematide]

all want to get laid, but nobody wants to get screwed...

[TheSoundman]

My favorite marketing line is "no interest for 24 months" I say "same here. see ya in two years"

[Tedster]

Originally posted by MusicMedicine:

The solution (IMHO)? Let someone else blow your horn. If you're going to market yourself I think using quotes from other people is the way to go. There's a big difference between someone else saying you're the next Prince and you claiming it.

Good, except, if you're new, you might not have a lot of satisfied customers.

 

Lately, I've been taking my demo around to bar owners, handing it to them and saying, "I think you'll like this". I don't think that's arrogant. Saying "This is the best demo ever recorded" would be arrogant, and false, of course, since there are tons of folks who blow me out of the water. By the same token, saying "This is the best demo I'VE ever recorded" doesn't say much, if anything, it could be construed as meaning "the least sucky of the sucky". But saying "I think you'll like this" projects confidence and pride in my workmanship.

[Bill Roberts]

Sales 101.

 

Know you can get the job done and please the client.

 

Find out exactly what the clients expectations are and exceed them.

 

Know the deadlines. Confirm to them to the best of your ability and exceed them. Give yourself plenty of room to do a better job.

 

Check out the vibe of the client. If they want the stars and the moon, give them the stars and if you can't get the moon, tell them up front.

 

Open and honest communication.

 

Have a backup plan in case of the absolute worst case senerio and keep it to yourself but accessable in case something happens out of your control (catastropics/Weather related/Death/Loss of facility)

 

Have a liason. A boss to report to and an ASSISTANT BOSS. Someone else who you can report to. Have someone that can report to the boss in case you cannot.

 

Provide alternatives, just in case. Someone that can take the reins in case of catastrophie.

 

OK.

 

I don't think it is too arrogant to be able to fill the above and do it time and time again if you are a professional. If you are new at the job..you have to use every clean tool available to you in order to know 3 steps ahead if you are beginning down the wrong path. Face it, some people are pure assholes and difficult to work with. If you think you cannot handle them, move on. The job is difficult enough as is than to put up with a lot of negative vibes. You have to work hard and steady. Nothing is a cakewalk.

 

In sales, it is best to use a two pronged stategy. One is to show you can do the job through confidence and the other is to complete the process of attainment. The Client wants something and you got it. Let them see it and find a way to transfer ownership in the least painful and professional way. Patience, persistance, professionalism. Stay on top.

 

No one wants to be on the bottom but it is the default setting. Rise way above it. Nothing happens unless you make it happen.

[The Lurker]

Originally posted by ryst:

I have been browsing www.craigslist.org, the local papers here in ATL, and online for people who advertise their "business". It seems like there are a lot of people who call themselves producers and they say things like "very talented producer ready to make your next hit" or something like "we got mad skillz to make yo' music hot, fool!". Is this arrogance or do these quotes really hold any water?

Neither arrogance nor confidence.

 

Hype

[Angelo Clematide]

i'm very CONFIDENT, and my wife calls me from time to time a ARROGANT a--h--e, however i do not see a LINE anywhere.

[Philip OKeefe]

Boy, it's a hard line to walk... but if I'm going to err, I'd personally rather err on the side of humility than on the side of arrogance. I have ZERO to be arrogant about.

 

Look, in spite of my occasional insecurities and self-evaluations, I know that I'm fairly knowledgeable, and that I can do good work. I know I'm pretty easy to work with in the studio, and that all in all, my clients are always happy with what they get. I'm confident that I can do a competent job, and that I'll put my best efforts into any project that I accept... but I'm not going to be arrogant about it and say that I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. IMO, that's something for others to determine, not me.

 

The solution (IMHO)? Let someone else blow your horn. If you're going to market yourself I think using quotes from other people is the way to go. There's a big difference between someone else saying you're the next Prince and you claiming it.

 

IMO, Jeff has a very good point here.

 

Arrogance has always been a major turn off for me, and I have been determined to remain humble. Of course, my skill level makes that relatively easy... when you have little to be boastful about, it's much easier to remain humble.

[hard truth]

This reminds of a story I heard about Who drummer Keith Moon.

 

Keith: "I'm the best."

Other person: "oh, yeah?"

Keith: "I'm the best Keith Moon style drummer there is."

[Philip OKeefe]

Good point - that's the ONE thing I have to offer that no other studio, producer and / or engineer can claim - ME. IMO, that's the one thing that differentiates one project studio from another more than any other single factor.

 

Be the best "you" you can be... and market that. But let others say the nice things about you and your work, and don't go around bragging about yourself.

[Angelo Clematide]

my wife kicks my shine-bone under the table and sometimes forbids me completly to talk when we meet her relatives and friends. I can't help myself not making faux pass, so i better make what she says. Last time at a dinner party, the wife of her lawyer was saying something, and all of a sudden she lost what she wanted to say, then i said "turn on your brain before you open your mouth" - dead silence for a minute, never saw the people again.

[Philip OKeefe]

MY wife would have killed me on the spot... it wouldn't have been dead silence, but rather, "dead Phil".

 

She's probably my biggest fan... she thinks I'm the equal of any engineer who has ever walked the halls of any studio you could mention. And she's worked with some pretty good cats and has had the major label deal and all of that, so I can't easily dismiss her as being completely unknowledgeable... but OTOH, I think she's full of crap.

 

I just know better than to argue with her too much (about anything), and to watch how I TELL her she's full of crap.

[Angelo Clematide]

well i forgot to tell you, that all that is old and years ago, today i'm a pussycat

 

i have now a contract with the relatives, that i do not have to appear at their fiestas, the paper was a gift by them at the marriage.

[Dan South]

Fine line? More like the Mississippi River.

 

Confidence and arrogance are completely different. Arrogant people usually LACK confidence and bolster themselves with bravado.

 

That said, sometimes it's helpful to APPEAR to be a little bit arrogant. There was a study done years ago. They sent two guys, equally good looking, into a series of bars and nightclubs. They told one to exude modesty, the other to exude arrogance. Guess which one picked up more women.

 

Sometimes arrogance comforts more than the person who displays the trait. Sometimes others gain confidence from someone's arrogance. All charismatic leaders are arrogant to some degree, even if it's only an act. Imagine a platoon leader about to lead his troops into a battle where they are severely outnumbered. If he yells, "Let go kick some butt!" he gives his men confidence. If he says, "Ooh, we're probably all going to get killed, but I can't disobey orders from headquarters," then his troops won't have a chance.

 

That said, in most situations, it's better to exude confidence than arrogance, and the confidence must be genuine. Nobody knows everything. Everybody is bad at something. Accept your weaknesses and advertise your strengths. No one is going to hire you or buy your products because of what you can't do; they're only interested in what you can do and can do well. So, if you're not great at soloing, but you're a rock solid rhythm guitarist, don't try to convince people that you're Eddie or Stevie Ray. But if you can keep the band driving all night like a Pete or a Keith, then be confident that someone who needs your skills will be very happy to hear you speak confidently about them. Even a little arrogantly if you've really got the stuff.

[Angelo Clematide]

Confidence and Arrogance,

 

after reading the posts, im unsure now if this two words mean the same on the other side of the pond.

 

Confidence means for me having trust in a person, or a trusting relationship, for example my lawyer who does not betray my confidences in him. Second, self-confidence, the feeling of assurance, especially of my self-assurance = a state of being certain, and also the emotional security resulting from faith in myself.

 

Arrogance is displaying a elevated self-worth or self-importance, and the assumption of being superiority toward others.

 

In this sense I was always confident, never arrogant. What I experience now and then is, that some people call my arrogant, because Im confident, also some rather shy, modest or humble people can react negative towards people who are confident.

 

Anything went bad in translation?

 

-

[where02190]

Craigslist is a unique format of a forum, in that it's self moderating. I browse it daily, and also advertize there, and see not only alot of arrogance, but alot of trash talk. Because it's self moderating (a flagging system where 3 different IP address's must flag a post before it is deleted) one can get away with just about anything.

 

However I have found CL to be about the most productive advertizing we've ever done, and it's all free!!!! Takes me a couple minutes each day, and well worth the time.

 

Some say I'm confidently arrogant, others arrogantly confident. It is truly a fine line to walk. Your work and track record will speak for themselves, and IMHO the best advertizing is a satisfied client. It's a small world, and musicians who actually have a clue ask around and talk to eachother, if you do a good job at a fair price, word will get around quickly. If you are an ass that'll get around quicker.

[Tedster]

Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:

Be the best "you" you can be...

That sounds awfully "Army" coming from a Marine.

 

Dan, your example of two guys, equally good-looking, one modest and one arrogant, is good, except that, for us, our "good-looks" would be "skill level", and in each case (whether talking about good looks or proficient skills) one must first be confident that he possesses said skills.

 

It would be interesting to see, for example, a good-looking guy exuding modesty, and an average (not dorky, just average) looking guy exuding arrogance, and see what the results were in the bar.