Are You Giving Yourself the Chance to Live?

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by phaeton:

Maybe this is another symptom of it, but i'm becoming more and more aware of the finiteness of my lifespan-

I'm thinking about saving my ass off so I can afford a $1,500 mountain bike.

 

Why? Because it will be enormous fun, moreso than the one I have now. It'll be motivational to get back out in the woods and do something physical around Mother Nature.

 

But also because - if I wait until I'm 65 to buy that full-suspension bike that I want, *maybe* I'll be able to afford it better then - but will I be able to enjoy it?

 

I know people who seem to express an interest in mountain biking.. they'll buy a WalMart bike, set aside *part* of a day to ride it on a nearby trail one day, then set it aside. They'll really enjoy the experience - if they allow it - BUT - they'll say something like "man, I love it, but you know I just don't have time for it!"

 

I'm talking about guys who are single, who are making over $40,000 a year... why don't they have time for it? They're working the butts off because they need the Right Size House in the Right Neighborhood, to maintain the Right Job with the Right Benefits to establish the Proper Social Status so they can find and marry their Trophy Wife...

 

... and then die?

 

That kind of thinking makes *me* want to die. Makes me think that maybe they're right - after all, it's basically *everybody* now that thinks that way - maybe I *am* being selfish! But I feel it's just being *human*!

 

 

messed up ones. The person with the "problems" is just reacting to a set of artificial emotional constraints.

That's another thing: a lot of people today who have mental problems (myself excluded ), are probably like that BECAUSE they've chosen to become a Rat Racer, when really perhaps they should have been an artist, musician - or maybe even they would have been happy being a janitor, who has time to go fishing on the weekend - instead of taking the office work home, and being time-compressed to the hilt?

 

Maybe that janitor/fisherman would be destined to write some poetry that was so profound that it alone affected the mindset of the rest of the Rat Racers? Sounds crazy - but the sad thing is - we'll never know now.

 

 

Welcome back Chip. I've missed you.

Wow, thanks... you guys have made me feel slightly less alienated... If my ranting doesn't freak everyone out...

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Geenard:

99% of the reason I moved to the mountains and took a massive pay cut. I'm healthier, happier, and sensually stimulated beyond

What is sanity like?

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by miroslav:

My goal right now is to try and retire as early as possible.

WAIT, see, stop right there!

 

I hear that a lot as well - but not a lot of people are able to accomplish that. PLUS, it's not very likely, in reality?

 

So my question is: WHY do you want to retire early?

 

and what is it you want to be able to do after you retire that you *can't start doing now????*

 

I encounter a lot of doctors who tell me "man, I used to play guitar when I was younger and I wanted to do it, be in a band, but of course now I don't have the time".... "well, couldn't you work an hour less every day and still make plenty of money to live off of? Or even if you took an entire day off?"

 

"Yeah, but... but... but... I can't do that... "

 

"Why?"

 

"Well, uhmm... well, I'm BUSY"

 

That's and endless loop. That's not living. It's absurd being stuck in a situation of being busy to make a lot of money, but then not having anything to spend it on of *substance*; or contrarily not having any time to do anything of substance.

 

There's so many people on the planet, but so few *unique individuals*. Which is fine, but to me I had this sadness that I'm seeing a great many people who have the potential to *be* unique individuals, allow their true selves to be subsumed by this New Work Ethic.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Kendrix:

BTW- I just re-read "The art of Happiness".

It makes sense to me.

Reading a book about being happy doesn't strike you as a bit strange?

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Tedly Nightshade:

So I continue to try to have the presence of mind and spirit to enjoy what's left of the beauty all around me, and to savor the poignance of it's

I've been trying to. But I allow concern for those around me to intrude into my thought process.

 

So, I give myself a chance to live. For now. While I can. I savor what's left, knowing it will be gone.

But isn't that incredibly sad, to give up on what's outside? How do you deal with that resignation?

 

I agree with you, essentially. But I can't let go.

 

little lives flash by so quickly. But every creature born is poisoned by the time they are conceived, and is doomed to witness the destruction of everything they might ever come to hold dear and to treasure. [/QB]

Yeah. But I can't give up. If there's already creatures here, creatures that can think, I have to know that some of them are trying to go against what has brought us to this place in time.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by blackfish:

the solution is stop FUCKINg WHINING.

Great people living great lives are there, right there where you all are. look harder....or stop looking and understand that manifest destiny is only an american ideal.

That there are isolated people doing things is not the point, it the change in the mass of people overall. I'm sorry you don't get it.

 

person? You know a moment when you look in to the face fo this person and you can see their soul, it lasts for a lifetime.

Yeah, who has this? Does this occur over the meal at Applebys, this moment? Or after a Wonderful Bonding Experience shared at the movies?

 

 

repeatedly. Smell the roses he says, I say first you have to know which ones really are roses. Roses die, the roses you all might be

Again, you miss the point: it's not smelling the Perfect Rose itself, it's *the process of smelling them*! Your position of carefully weighing *why* and *when* and the potential outcome of said time expenditure of doing so - that's exactly my point.

 

Yeah, maybe you waste a year taking up some oddball preoccupation, like ja alai, or some such. So what? You're more of a *human* for following your muse. You don't weigh whether it's the right rose or not, or whether it's going to be worth it - the point is that you do it because *you have that choice*. Having the choice, knowing it's there and being a robot and saying "I don't need that" is exactly my point.

 

think i heard this in some strange teeny bopper movie as a young teen, is till remeber it as it is one of the roses that dot my lifetime. [/quote

 

""

[the stranger]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

If my ranting doesn't freak everyone out...

I think as long as I'm around, you should appear to be well adjusted and normal.

And yeah, it's great to see you back Chip.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Kris:

And what was the 'hunter/gatherer's' life expectancy?

It varied a whole lot from place to place, but that's not really relevant, because I didn't point that out in order to argue that we should go back to being hunter-gatherers. I pointed this out for two reasons: 1) Dan said we've never had a time in history where there's been more leisure time and this isn't true, and 2) Although we are no longer hunter-gatherers, we are not very much different from our ancestors emotionally and I think it's futile to try to be. Early humans did not go in for unceasing toil and regimented time, and many experienced complete emotional and physical meltdown when they were required to. And in most cases, they were "required to" not out of necessity but by manipulation for someone else's gain. In that sense, things aren't any different either.

 

So here are the real points as they pertain to today:

 

- Humans seem to be hardwired to optimally "work" around 15 hours a week and spend a good deal of the rest of their time in artistic, spiritual and social pursuits, with plenty of time to contemplate and just "hang out."

 

- At many points in history it has seemed necessary to progress for people to work longer hours in order to get specific tasks done. However... with all the labor saving technology we have now, if we can't all shorten our work weeks to 15 hours and have lots of vacation time there is something wrong. In fact we were promised this in the 40's and 50's radio and TV ads... the three day work week would be introduced thanks to modern labor saving technology (remember this was with only one spouse working), and the harried housewife would be a thing of the past too, her chores being lightened by machines.

 

Well, they were right - we have all that technology. So what happened?

[Ben One]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Well, they were right - we have all that technology. So what happened?

I know little about comparative cultures and early human history, but somehow I can't completely blame the external pressures of modern society for the feeling that we have less free time that any of us would like (and probably need).

 

Regardless of external societal pressures, there seems to be a drive among humans to make the most out of their time and surroundings.

 

After all, don't many of us here feel that drive with regard to music? Most of us, I would guess, would not be content with making a single good record or have one great gig--isn't there a drive to make an even better one and maximize our individual potentials?

 

By the way, a good book about the relentless pace of modern life is "Faster" by James Gleick, who wrote the well-known popular book about chaos theory.

 

Me, I blame modern transportation for a lot of the time crunch. We want to go so many places, but our transportation systems haven't come close to match our desires to travel and get from place to place in seemingly reasonable amounts of time.

 

Ben

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

Originally posted by miroslav:

My goal right now is to try and retire as early as possible.

WAIT, see, stop right there!

 

I hear that a lot as well - but not a lot of people are able to accomplish that. PLUS, it's not very likely, in reality?

 

So my question is: WHY do you want to retire early?

 

and what is it you want to be able to do after you retire that you *can't start doing now????*

I CAN do a lot of what I like right now...Im a single guy with limited obligationsbut if I didn't have the need to show up for work 40 hours per week...plus the extra 20 hours required to get ready for it, then get there and then also back again each day...

...that would give me that much more time to focus on things that I really find fulfilling.

 

For me...it's all about *time*...

 

I do not like a very structured existence...and if I were free to do what I wanted, when I wanted...the clock on the wall would not be needed.

 

But...having a regular full-time job automatically applies a HUGE amount of structure to everyone's lifestyle...and we spend the rest of our time working around that structure.

 

Heck, getting up at 6:00 am 5 days a week is murdering me!!!

I am a night owl...and if I had more flexibility in my work/life schedule...I would probably be up each day around 10-11 am...and up each night 'til around 2-3 am...

...that is what MY clock likes.

 

But, that is not a very realistic schedule for trying to fit in with the rest of the world.

Sorather than piss-n-moan about the rest of the worldit would be a lot easier for me to just adjust my own schedulebut the first step would be to unburden myself of having to put aside 60 hours per week for a rigidly scheduled job.

 

Ive considered quitting my job, selling my house at a very neat profitand then moving to a much more rural and simpler lifestyle. I nice cabin near a mountain lake, and not too far from a small villagewhere people walk slowly and say good morningor just sit at the local café and talk over a cup of jo.

Then I could focus on just a few main interests without all the distractions that modern living has dumped on us.

 

As it is right nowI probably already have more freedom and flexibility to do what ever I like, than most people dobut, I want to shed even more need to keep up with the current societal pulse.which is a fast-paced pursuit of stuffand nothing more.

 

*EDIT******

 

Actually...I was not meaning to completely retire...but rather make a career change.

Possibly do something part-time or flex-time...so that I can work the job around my own "life schedule"...rather than the other way around...

 

My "idol" or I should say "ideal"...

...the Johnny Depp character in the movie "Secret Window".

 

But of course...not the part where he is really crazy...just the part where he is living in the nice cabin and just focusing on writing...and nothing else.

[blackfish]

no sir. I think you are the one who fails to see.

if you have never shared a great love, never seen that lifetime in one you care about, then you are indeed too far outside the human race. That you make light of human emotions-the last thing one who started athread about giving oneself a chance to live would do is quite crippling to your point. I am sorry for you indeed, such deep thoughts with out any substance behind them. It is the like minded thinking displayed here that leads to indifference and malaise in how we deal with society or the lack there-of. A certain level of comfort is required to make such observations. I am not weighing roses sir, i am pointing out the fact that your statement sounds like an aging person growing bitter with the passing of time. My point is that the roses you utilize your process to smell- your point- may in fact be evolving to include new aspects of life in our changing society. Which as someone who has already decided all others are robots, will be hard to appreciate. You refer to a preoccupation? Preoccupied, as in distracted from the rest of your life, how does that make your point? Human is not something to strive to be, it is something you are inherently through nature. A glorified monkey with opposable thumbs, whining about the lack of complexity and sincerity in the world. Get off your dead horse and get down it, you may just smile at the result.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Kendrix:

I find this interesting. There really is something about communicating over the net that seems to result in excessive polarization of discussions.

I don't think it's just the net. In a lot of ways this discussion is a mirror of what happens in real life.

 

Its totally baffling to me that a message encouraging folks to stay positive in the face of BS going on in the world around us could be interpreted as contributing to alienation. That certainly wasnt where my head was at.

I know it wasn't. I didn't sense any mean spiritedness on your part and I'm sorry if I came off that way.

 

But the reason why it CAN be alienating to hear someone say "stay positive" is because in some situations, basically what you're being asked to do is adapt to a situation that you feel is fundamentally wrong. And therefore to just adapt to it in order to stay "positive", to your mind, would be perpetually living a lie. So it can feel better in those cases to face and discuss the truth as you see it, even if it sucks and is painful. It's less painful than lying to yourself and may eventually lead to a plan of action. In fact, nearly all progress has depended on people being willing to tackle a problem that had previously been taboo or seen as insurmountable.

 

However if you're the only person in a crowd willing to explore a problem to that depth, and everyone around you is just going "Hey, it's not so bad! Just stay positive and learn to look at it differently!" it's extremely alienating.

 

It's like the old story about how there's an elephant in the middle of the living room. And most people in the room won't even acknowledge that it's there. If one person deigns to say "Hey! There's an elephant in the living room!" most of the room will get very defensive and say "What are you talking about? There's no elephant!" A few people will say, "Har har, well OK, so there's an elephant, but it's not so bad! Just learn to think of it in a positive light! You can choose every day how you look at this elephant!" And meanwhile the elephant is shitting all over your living room and destroying the furniture. After awhile you start to feel like either you're crazy or everyone else is, and neither thought is very comforting.

 

So if even ONE other person says to you "Yeah I feel ya man, there's an elephant, and it's trashing your place, and that really really sucks," that will make you feel better even though it's not a pleasant admission... it will make you feel less alone, and less dishonest. And possibly have found someone in life who will take your part and understand the nature of your particular problems, and at least help you minimize the pain of them if not solve them.

 

Can you see what I mean?

 

Depending on the person involved I suspect both views have validity.

Agreed.

 

That seems to make the point about how you can choose to view and react to things.

Except... it isn't always a "choice" just because different people view and react to things differently. Some things about our individual natures are things we choose; some are a vital part of us and we could (and should) no more change them than we could cut off a limb. We humans are wonderfully adaptive and can learn to live in an amazing variety of situations... but sometimes we lose ourselves in the process, and sometimes others exploit that adaptiveness for their own gain. I think we should be aware of that. That's all.

[Anifa]

Maybe it's just me...

...but HUNDREDS of cable channels...remote controllers...Pay-Per-View...24/7 news reports etc...

...does it REALLY equate to any kind of advanced/quality living???

 

Those are just little creature comforts that we have grown attached to. But, they don't REALLY make living better...improved...advanced...meaningful.

BINGO!!!!

 

If it were not for the fact that I have children who enjoy watching television shows; I would NOT even own a television. During my single years, I went several years without owning or even wanting to own a television. I finally bought one to keep people from asking where my TV was the very moment they walked in the door.

 

Even though my family has 3 televisions now, one in each of my children's rooms and one for the family room; I refuse to subscribe to all of the "extra" channels through cable networks. I tried it for a while, but determined that I did not want my children living the life of a couch potato. There is too much life to enjoy to become addicted to a boob tube and my money is spent better elsewhere than paying for television. Far too many people get wrapped up in soap operas or sitcoms and begin confusing reality with character plots created and designed for entertainment. I have witnessed many people that sympathize with characters on television and waste energy in trying to figure out a resolve for the problems being presented, while their own personal lives are falling apart beneath their noses. Even "Reality TV" is a big joke and a very staged event; anyone that thinks otherwise needs to get out and experience life a little bit more.

 

Though my finances do not provide for lavish and extravagant vacations or life with all of the ammenities; I've found ways to provide entertainment for me and my family without major expense. We have outdoor tennis courts, racquetball courts, basketball courts, biking trails, hiking trails, skateboard/rollerblading parks, and dozens of lakes to enjoy the great outdoors.

 

Both of my children are involved in music, as am I, and it only takes one time to purchase the instruments for many, many hours of lasting entertainment.

 

I've not yet taken my children to Disneyland or any of the other highly publicized theme parks; but we buy season passes to Oceans of Fun and Worlds of Fun here locally while enjoying the benefits of an entire summer packed full of entertainment. Season passes to both parks for my family runs around $350.00 per season; whereas, one trip to Disneyland or likewise would cost well over $3,000.00.

 

I don't drive a brand new fancy car that keeps me confined at home due to huge car payments and high insurance premiums; rather, I drive a 98' Windstar van that provides reliable transportation.... AND IT'S PAID FOR with respectable property taxes and insurance premiums. My home is modest, but it is comfortable.

 

I could qualify for three times the worth of my current home, and add a new car payment on top of that; but WHY would I want to do that? I like room to breathe and living a humble lifestyle provides income to enjoy life a little more at ease. If things really began to crunch down on me; there are simple pleasures (such as my ISP and hosting my two web sites), game passes to Blockbuster video for my children, and special extracurricular programs for my children that would have to go. We would not dine out nearly as often, and I could even go as far as to sell my home and take a few steps down without severely impacting the quality of life. Although my home is modest, we live in a pretty snobbish district; snobbery is something that I don't need to get by in life.

 

I've never been one to live in the shadow of others, nor have I been one that thinks I have to compete with the Jones's. Perhaps that's because I am comfortable in who I am, I know my limitations, and I don't live all of my tomorrow's while trying to live up to someone else's expectations.

 

I spent three years of my life working massive overtime, putting in 60 and 70 hour weeks, while married and supporting the ex through a degree program. I was zombified trying to support an improvement in lifestyles by allowing the ex to achieve his goals; in the end he walked. It was a hard lesson learned, but a rude awakening as to how pouring your heart and soul into something doesn't always provide for a happy ending. During those three years I realized that unless I deprived myself of precious hours of sleep, I would become a stranger to my children; I went to work on 3 and 4 hours of sleep a night.

 

At times I would have to pull off to the side of the road to catch a nap in coming home to keep from crashing. Indeed, I did have two incidents of totaling my cars; the second car crash very easily could have been my last, as I landed into a stone wall coming off of a freeway and I had not fastened my seatbelt; only by the grace of God did I walk away from that accident unharmed. At that time I was in the process of a divorce, while still working major hours, and I decided I needed to make some serious changes in my life to keep from killing myself or innocent victims while driving without proper rest. Reducing my schedule back to a normal 40 hour week (outside of mandatory Christmas overtime) became a major priority in getting my life back to a comfort zone. To do that meant having to give up everything that I had ever worked for and start anew.

 

It would certainly be nice to have excess amounts of money to squander at my dispose; but would that improve my quality of life??? NO, my quality of life comes in knowing that I have a happy home and two children that cherish the ground that I walk on... as do I for them. We know how to have a good time when funds allow for season tickets to amusement parks, and we also know how to have fun when we haven't got an extra dime to our name; even if it's nothing more than sitting down to a game of chess, clue, scrabble, or a card game during the winter; or riding bikes, hiking trails, or simply having a picnic at a park.

 

Do I miss having a home twice the size as the one I have now? Yes and No!!! I miss the room to expand, but I would not trade the quality time spent with my children for millions of dollars.... or a house. Kids only grow up once and I want to be here as much as I can to enjoy that. God be willing, hopefully there are no more major setbacks in medical expenses or other unforeseen devastations.

 

Okay, I'm done rambling.

[Jimbroni]

It's like the old story about how there's an elephant in the middle of the living room. And most people in the room won't even acknowledge that it's there. If one person deigns to say "Hey! There's an elephant in the living room!" most of the room will get very defensive and say "What are you talking about? There's no elephant!" A few people will say, "Har har, well OK, so there's an elephant, but it's not so bad! Just learn to think of it in a positive light! You can choose every day how you look at this elephant!" And meanwhile the elephant is shitting all over your living room and destroying the furniture. After awhile you start to feel like either you're crazy or everyone else is, and neither thought is very comforting.

Why not ride the elephant? Sounds like a joy ride.

 

Also, what wrong with being alienated? I certainly enjoy the unique qualities of everyone here. Because we are unique, we will be alienated, always and forever. Being different and unique from the masses is cause to be proud, not sad.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

Why not ride the elephant? Sounds like a joy ride.

For some it might be. For others, the elephant is destroying what they worked to build and it's unrealistic to think they're going to be happy about it.

 

Also, what wrong with being alienated? I certainly enjoy the unique qualities of everyone here. Because we are unique, we will be alienated, always and forever. Being different and unique from the masses is cause to be proud, not sad.

Agreed. But most of us need and depend on others in order to accomplish anything, and if no one else understands what you do or what you're about, that's cause to be sad.

 

It's OK to have cause to be sad about things that are important to you. Being sad about loss is part of what lets you and others know that someone or something means a lot to you - and that's what Chip was talking about, people seem unwilling to acknowledge the importance of others because it might make them sad. I find it insane to go through life in this constant adaptive state: "Hey, an elephant destroyed my home? No problem, I'll just ride the elephant! Doesn't matter how hard I worked for my home and how much happiness the home has brought me, it means nothing because I want to feel good NOW! Hey, my spouse just died of cancer? No biggie, there are lots of other people in the world that I can fall in love with! I'm not going to mourn and be sad because I can CHOOSE to be positive about this!"

 

That all strikes me as very insane and dehumanizing, sorry.

[blackfish]

imagine no possessions...it's easy if you try

imagine all the people..living for today

you may say that i'm a dreamer, but i'm not the only one.

[jackpine]

This whole discussion is why I left the corporate world, bought 27 acres in the middle of fucking nowhere and eek out my funny little life.

 

I have VERY little money (three kids in collage) but I also have very few expenses.

 

I have surrounded myself with like minded people. People who do show up at my door with their skis on and say "lets go", people who aren't vacuous automatons.

 

I've got a session at 2:00, it's finally snowing so I gotta go and have a ski.

 

See if there are any roses around to smell.....

[Kendrix]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

Originally posted by Kendrix:

BTW- I just re-read "The art of Happiness".

It makes sense to me.

Reading a book about being happy doesn't strike you as a bit strange?

Chip,

Strange? No- not at all.

The book simply explains some of the Buddist concepts related to taking responsibility for your own state of mind and suggest some methods for accomplishing this. These things do not come naturally to most folks- and are certainly not programed into us by society.

 

This strikes me as no more strange than having this discussion on the topic over the web.

No more strange than going to a yoga class or to a meditation center or to a church to learn ways to deal with stress and feel fulfilled and connected to the universe.

 

Is there some underlying thought behind your statement that I'm missing?

 

Now I'm starting to feel alienated cause im not as alienated as some of you!

This is a real dillemma (or is it a conundrum?).

[jackpine]

...and BTW

 

 

I just love you guys (and gals).

[Sp3nc3r]

Well, apparently, I just allowed myself to nod off at my desk for what I think was 1 or 2 min.......does that count?

 

Cheers!

Spencer

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Kendrix:

The book simply explains some of the Buddist concepts related to taking responsibility for your own state of mind and suggest some methods for accomplishing this. These things do not come naturally to most folks- and are certainly not programed into us by society.

True enough, and I do think those concepts are very valuable, and Chip probably COULD benefit from Buddhist principles. They're a great help in training your mind and gaining some control over your thoughts so you can enjoy life, for sure.

 

My caution has to do with how and when to apply those principles. Like anything powerful, they can be misused. If you use them to avoid your own nature or as an excuse to shirk your larger responsibility to society and future generations, then they haven't helped you or anyone else.

[Jimbroni]

"Hey, an elephant destroyed my home? No problem, I'll just ride the elephant! Doesn't matter how hard I worked for my home and how much happiness the home has brought me, it means nothing because I want to feel good NOW!

Yes but isn't the home, the cause of you having to live to work. Isn't the Desire to have this fantastic "cookie cutter" home, the real cause of the state of suffering that Chip describes. So why not have fun mowing it down. Sorry its the buddhist in me.

 

Hey, my spouse just died of cancer? No biggie, there are lots of other people in the world that I can fall in love with! I'm not going to mourn and be sad because I can CHOOSE to be positive about this!"

Thats one way to look at it. Isn't your sadness really generated by YOUR sense of loss? Wouldn't that be a selfish thing? Its OK to be selfish sometimes, but I just want to make sure we're being accurate. Because I need to eat to survive, I have to be selfish to some extent to survive.

 

Now when your spouse is alive and suffering through the illness, thats different. Thats a time for a more noble version of sadness, compassion.

[Kendrix]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

But the reason why it CAN be alienating to hear someone say "stay positive" is because in some situations, basically what you're being asked to do is adapt to a situation that you feel is fundamentally wrong. And therefore to just adapt to it in order to stay "positive", to your mind, would be perpetually living a lie. So it can feel better in those cases to face and discuss the truth as you see it, even if it sucks and is painful. It's less painful than lying to yourself and may eventually lead to a plan of action. In fact, nearly all progress has depended on people being willing to tackle a problem that had previously been taboo or seen as insurmountable.

 

However if you're the only person in a crowd willing to explore a problem to that depth, and everyone around you is just going "Hey, it's not so bad! Just stay positive and learn to look at it differently!" it's extremely alienating.

 

It's like the old story about how there's an elephant in the middle of the living room. And most people in the room won't even acknowledge that it's there. If one person deigns to say "Hey! There's an elephant in the living room!" most of the room will get very defensive and say "What are you talking about? There's no elephant!" A few people will say, "Har har, well OK, so there's an elephant, but it's not so bad! Just learn to think of it in a positive light! You can choose every day how you look at this elephant!" And meanwhile the elephant is shitting all over your living room and destroying the furniture. After awhile you start to feel like either you're crazy or everyone else is, and neither thought is very comforting.

 

So if even ONE other person says to you "Yeah I feel ya man, there's an elephant, and it's trashing your place, and that really really sucks," that will make you feel better even though it's not a pleasant admission... it will make you feel less alone, and less dishonest. And possibly have found someone in life who will take your part and understand the nature of your particular problems, and at least help you minimize the pain of them if not solve them.

 

Can you see what I mean?

 

Yes I do.

 

I'd clarify that, to me, staying positive is NOT about denial of issues or accomodating yourself to some unacceptable situation.

Rather, its all about fully acknowledging/accepting the reality of the situation AND realizing that letting it drag you down into a chronically negative state will just make things worse.

 

So, as it relates to the elephant ( one of my my favorite animals), I d say: Holy shit, that elephant has ruined your home.

That sucks big time. However, the best way to deal with it is not to brood. Mourn your losses (applying positive thinking does not mean you cant be sad when its called for) and then pick yourself up and stand up for your self and fix it as best you can. Just dont let it drag you into Prozac-ville for the long term. That does no one any good.

 

Accurate communication is amazingly dificult sometimes. I think we are getting close.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

Yes but isn't the home, the cause of you having to live to work. Isn't the Desire to have this fantastic "cookie cutter" home, the real cause of the state of suffering that Chip describes.

Not in my case. My home enables me to NOT have to live to work, because 1) it was cheap, 2) it allows me to have a space of my own where I have a peaceful environment, a studio to play music and give others a place to play. And a yard where I can produce some of my own food and grow flowers to smell.

 

I doubt I could have all these things for so little expense if I had to go find another place to live.

 

So why not have fun mowing it down. Sorry its the buddhist in me.

I understand. And if the home has been a burden to you for no good reason (as it is for many people) then you'd be right. If your home truly reflects your nature then the loss is cause for sadness.

 

Thats one way to look at it. Isn't your sadness really generated by YOUR sense of loss? Wouldn't that be a selfish thing?

No, that's what I'm trying to say. If you don't feel sadness at losing a loved one then you don't really value them while they live. And your still-living loved ones know it. It seems people are hell bent right now on making each other interchangable, so they can avoid the pain of loss. THAT is selfish IMO. And furthermore, it doesn't work.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

She really had no clue that Rome was a city in Italy, let alone that it was the seat of one of the greatest empires of all civilization.

Which leads me to the point that whoever suggested the school system holds a lot of blame for the situations you decry was, to some degree, correct.

You know, I have a hard time placing the blame on schools ... I have a dear friend from high school ... she thought you could drive to Hawaii (we're in California) ... went to the same schools as I did. And I can't remember a time when driving to Hawaii didn't sound ludicrous to me.

[Michelle ggurl]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I don't think that was Chip's point though... his point was that he feels alienated by OTHER people's seeming lack of caring whether they have time to contemplate anything or not.

 

No matter how much you might personally try to enjoy life on any given day and make time for that, it's extremely frustrating when no one around you places a very high premium on the things that matter most to you - most especially if the things that matter to you are positive, substantial things.

This is exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks for driving it home, Lee.

[KenElevenShadows]

And the other concern is simply that of other people in general. I doubt I'm alone in caring that people around me, are themselves unbalanced and working like donkeys.

[fantasticsound]

Excellent points, Chip. The education system purports to enrich us as human beings but has become a sort-and-train center for cookie cutter jobs.

 

There are schools that see things in a different way, however, most are private or privately run charter schools. Goverment schools are, largely, pathetic for anything other than job training.

[Jimbroni]

darn mouse buttons

[Jimbroni]

see below double post