Recording Sax?

[teh dri]

Had a saxophone player over here the other day, just a friend of a housemate who had his 5 grand sax with him (and a few beers in his stomach). When id heard he'd never really recorded much, being the guy i am i quickly knocked up a house beat (thinking St Germain style) and had him playing in front of a mic within half an hour.

 

As my studio is still in storage (since my tour in europe) i was recording him with a VERY amusingly simple setup consisting of:

 

Asus Laptop running Ableton Live 4 (yes seriously) - Novation X-Station (preamp/audio interface) - 10 metres audio and headphone extension - SM58 clone

 

The room was where we keep our drum kit, just a typical bedroom-turned-drumroom with no accoustic treatment at all. Mic was on a stand, about 7 feet high and aimed down towards bell, maybe about 2 or 3 feet from bell of sax as he moved (swayed drunkenly).... no great "hey stand here and do this" or "lets get a great sound" emphasis but the results were enough to make him happy to get a cd of him playing from a rough jam but its got me wondering...

 

What goes into getting a GREAT sax sound?

 

How important is the room/room sound?

 

Obviously i chose a quick and cheap mic to use but do you need clip-on mics for sax?

 

does it take away from the players "vibe" or "headspace" to tell them to aim at the mic a cretain set distance etc?

 

My mic choices are limited to SM57, SM58, Rode NT3 (which i love) and Rode NT1A (which i havent much experience with yet).... would a hyper-directional like the NT3 be preferable over a more airy NT1?

 

Can even a 57 manage the clarity a sax might need (im thinking the subtle voicings)...?

 

does a clipon mic still pick up lots of finger noise?

 

anything im overlooking or tips or experiemces? im basically a child of the electronic are with the aud eng credentials ive ignored too long, now getting back into recording real instruments into the breakbeat funk/jazz influenced music i make.

[sign]

The NT3 is very bright, the NT1 is very 'thin' so that leaves you with the 57.

 

You'll have to realize that much of the sound comes from the valves, so a clip on is nice for gigging but for recording? Dunno.

 

The best saxophone sounds I get is with neutral sounding SDC's, ribbon mics and the better dynamics like MD441 and MD421.

[where02190]

First thing to understand is the soudn of a sax does NOT come primarily from the bell, it comes from the valves.

 

Go for the NT1A, about 3 feet in front of the player and pointing at the valves, NOT the bell. Off to one side will yield a richer tone, more toward the front a sharper thinner tone. (FWIW most players prefer the richer mellow tone.)

 

If you have a good compressor, a touch going in can help dynamic range.

 

If you have an itch to spend a small amount of $$$ for a pretty killer for the price mic for saxes, get yourself a Sennheiser e609 silver series. ($99). It is also great for electric guitars and percussion/toms.

 

One of my fav mics for sax is the Rode NTK. Retail around $400, this is an excellent vocal mic as well, and is one of my go to mics as a room mic for drums. In combination with the afore mentioned Sennheiser e609, makes for nasty in your face guitars.

 

Set the player so he's got his back to a diffusion surface. You can hand a heavy blanket or quilt over a boom stand (with the boom set as the top of a T) to prevent refelections. 4 feet or so out from a corner, playing into the open room can often yield nice tones. I find stairways can also sound great, experimenting with placement, as they often have resonant warm spot that gives the sax a very nice thick bodied tonality.

[teh dri]

hmmm. well i dont have too much else in the way of condensors to play with. the valves are a large part of the tone are they?

 

how do you manage a saxophonist who isnt used to recording? as far as limiting whatever playing techniques they may have developed, such as wild swinging or jazz back arching etc...

 

also i had to hammer these crappy Novation preamps to get a great level... im sure i was outside of some serious volume rolloff because surely sax pumps out a bit more air then what i was tracking.

 

sniff... it all makes me wish i could hurry up and unpack in the new studio, but for now... feed me more tips and theory!

 

what kind of a range does sax have? are you habitually rolling off anything eq-wise on the inbound signal?

[Lee Flier]

Hmm. I have to somewhat disagree with Where, depending what kind of sound you're going for. A lot of sax players make a lot of extraneous noise (breath, valve noise etc) and therefore large diaphragm mics can be overly sensitive. Ribbon mics are best for sax - I LOVE my Beyer M160 on sax, stuck right at the mouth of the bell, I never have to touch an EQ in the mix that way. I just recorded a sax yesterday with a Soundelux e49, but that is a high quality tube condenser which does NOT have the hype in the top that Rodes do. I think the Rodes are too bright for sax and will result in a thin or shrill sound.

 

Given your current choices I would probably be more inclined to use the 57 or 58 than anything, but since you asked about a GREAT sax sound, I'd get myself a ribbon mic posthaste. The Beyers are great and cheaper than most other brands of ribbon, although a Coles or RCA if you can afford one, are killer for all types of brass and winds.

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by Dave DRi:

hmmm. well i dont have too much else in the way of condensors to play with. the valves are a large part of the tone are they?

 

Once upon another lifetime ago, I was a sax player. Yes, the tone comes out of the bell, AND out of the holes. When a sax player lifts a key by raising a finger, a spring loaded pad lifts from the hole in the body, which effectively changes the length of the resonating conical cylinder, thus raising the pitch. So yes, the sound is coming out of the holes as much (or moreso) than it is coming out of the bell. So it is important to mic the whole sax, and not just aim the mic at the bell. Shoving a mic into the bell is about the worst possible way to mic a sax. I normally prefer to mic the sax with the mic back a few feet - starting at about 3' (closer distances for a more intimate tone, further back for more "room" tone), aimed not at the bell, but at the point between the sax player's two hands.

 

how do you manage a saxophonist who isnt used to recording? as far as limiting whatever playing techniques they may have developed, such as wild swinging or jazz back arching etc...

 

The same way you manage anyone who isn't used to recording. By explaining the process to them, and by letting them know what you need from them in order to make their recording sound as good as possible. I try not to make players modify their style or technique too much, and try to work around them, instead of trying to force them to work around me - I want them comfortable because that makes them play better... but OTOH, you don't want them to be running around the room either, so if you do have someone like that, I prefer trying to explain to them WHY I need them to remain in place - they're likely to be more cooperative if you explain "why" you need them to stay in place, and not think you're trying to be a "control freak".

 

also i had to hammer these crappy Novation preamps to get a great level... im sure i was outside of some serious volume rolloff because surely sax pumps out a bit more air then what i was tracking.

 

Sax can be an extremely dynamic instrument, and can go from very soft to "hurt your ears" loud. It really just depends on what they player is doing with the instrument.

 

sniff... it all makes me wish i could hurry up and unpack in the new studio, but for now... feed me more tips and theory!

 

It all comes down to several factors. What type of a "sound" are you going for? WHICH sax (alto, soprano, tenor, bari) are you working with? Is the sax player playing with a highly spit-soaked reed? Metal mouthpeice?

 

Sax tone starts with the player, and then with the sax. The sax is, again, a highly dynamic instrument, and is capable of a very wide range of dynamics and tonal inflections and variations. If they are not playing what you are looking for, no mic and pre combination is going to change that - so a great sax player is the first and most important element in a great sax recording.

 

I've already told you how I usually prefer to place the mic. As far as which mic to use, it depends on the tone I'm after. In most cases, I personally prefer ribbon mics on sax, because they usually give it a nice warm, realistic tone without the harshness you can sometimes get from a condenser mic. However, it you're going for a big, brash, "brassy" tone (think "Good Morning Good Morning" by the Beatles as an example), then a condenser mic is a better choice. Dynamic mics can also be a good choice in some cases. My "go to" sax mic is a Beyer M160 ribbon, but I've also used the E/V RE20 dynamic as well as various condensers with good results.

 

what kind of a range does sax have? are you habitually rolling off anything eq-wise on the inbound signal?

 

It depends on which sax we're talking about. With rare exceptions (which you're not likely to run into) all saxophones are transposing instruments. IOW, they are not tuned to Concert C pitch, like a piano or flute or guitar is. Alto and Bari are Eb instruments (IOW, when they play a "C" on their sax, it sounds the same as a "Eb" on a piano) and tenors and sopranos are Bb instruments (when a tenor player plays a "C", it sounds like a Bb on the piano). Saxophone note range varies with the skill of the player, but generally you can figure on a 2 1/2 to 3 octave range.

 

As far as EQ, I normally don't touch it when tracking saxophones. If I feel it needs EQ, I probably have the wrong mic put up. If I want bright and brash, I'll sometimes go with a condenser, but usually it's a ribbon for me when it comes to sax, and given a really good player, I just let them handle the rest. Again, it's probably one of the most versatile and expressive instruments out there, and most of the sound of a good sax recording has more to do with the player than anything else.

 

My recommendation? Stick with your dynamic mics for now (later you can grab a ribbon if you have one in your studio setup, or buy one) and try recording it again - but do it when the player isn't sloshed.

 

 

[KenElevenShadows]

I've only miced a sax a few times. The first time I did it was with an SM 57 in my den, and got a good sound, mostly because the guy I was recording, Bob Kee (no, not the guy for the Stones), was a very good sax player and had played on some Motown stuff before. Good sound, but didn't capture all the nuances.

 

If I were to do it again, I'd try and get a ribbon mic, such as the Coles or the Beyer or Royer or something else. Those are very popular mics for capturing brass and saxophone (yes, I know a sax is not a brass instrument - back off, man! ).

 

If I couldn't get my mitts on a ribbon and had to use what I had, I'd probably set up a Sennheiser 421, which is a little richer than a SM 57, and the Audio Technica AT4060, which is a wonderfully smooth tube condenser, and experiment with the mic preamp, using the Peavey VMP-2 tube mic preamp and the FMR RNP and seeing which seemed better for the track.

 

In your shoes, I would be hesitant to use either of the Rode microphones, either the Rode NT1 or the NT3. Rode mics are often bright, and having used the NT1 before, it doesn't strike me as being particularly good for a sax mic. Well, quite honestly, I don't care for the NT1 at all, having used it once for vocals and various instruments. However, the Rode NTK might be a better choice, as it's much fuller and larger, and doesn't seem to have that slightly strident top end that the NT1 seems to have.

 

Start off with the mic 2-3 feet back and move it around until it sounds good. If the guy keeps getting up on the mic even after you've told him that you want him farther back, go ahead and put up two mics, one close and one 2-3' back and then either blend the two or lose the closer mic if it's not happening. Like Phil, I agree that shoving the mic into the bell is a horrible way to mic a sax.

[teh dri]

just a quick note of thanks for the replies... i will chew on them after work and analyse the recordings we've done already to find some points to improve on in particular.

 

I will just add quickly that ive got mostly Rode mics because... da dum... im from the country that makes them. they are pretty cheap here which makes life easier!