Relationship Advice, Please (updated)

[coyote]

Nope. You only do this if you imagine your wife to not be responsible for her actions and choices.

 

Taking out your anger on that guy does nobody any good, and shows that you're clueless about your own situation.

Originally posted by eh steve:

if i were you. i'd leave my wife home with the kids for a weekend and go visit mr. kayak.

wear your hiking boots.

try and take a walk somewhere out of the way.

have enough $ on you to cover bail.

kick the living shit out of the dude.

don't kill him.

Felix, know first that any choices your wife makes are HER responsibility.

 

Know second that all YOU can do is make your home and yourself as good a place to be as possible. In other words, if she feels the need to stray don't give her reasons to back up that decision. To this point, you seem to be OK in this.

 

BTW, do NOT ask the question "Do you love me? How much?" It's impossible for any person to give a true answer to that question, and the question itself reeks of insecurity. Besides, the answer already exists in her actions. Far better to say point-blank: "Our marriage is in trouble." Don't even mention the other guy as he's really irrelevant. No blame on outside parties - you each need to take 100% responsibility for the condition of your marriage.

 

Despite what some others think, the marriage might be redeemable AND come out stronger. Counseling is a great idea if you are both amenable to it.

[Gabriel E.]

After 13 years of marriage, it's normal for your wife to be curious about someone else and want a break from the day to day of the kids, mortgage, etc.

 

It's not normal for her to act on this however. And now she's admitted to doing it twice.

 

At best, she's shown a lack of sensitivity and respect for you and your kids. At worst, she's unfaithful. It seems like maybe she either has no clue how damaging her "kayaking" trip was or the reality is so much worse that it doesn't sound that bad in comparison.

 

If she's serious about your marriage, she'll accept never setting her eyes on this guy again. If she has to quit her job and lose some independence in order for this to happen, so be it.

 

If she agrees to this, go to councelling and make an effort to work it out.

 

If not, bid her adios.

 

Either way, contact a lawyer and do what you need to do so that in the event of a split, you retain access to the kids. Also, no matter what happens, don't speak badly of her to the kids.

 

Good luck Felix, we're all rooting for you.

[KenElevenShadows]

I don't really have any sensible advice, except to consider getting some sort of couples therapy, if you feel it would help and you want to try and preserve the marriage and make it better.

 

My girlfriend cheated on me, and we are going to couples therapy, which has so far been fairly helpful, but it differs depending on the people involved, including the therapist.

 

It's pretty rough and everything, and I really have no idea what's gonna happen. But we own a house together and have been together for five years, and it is worth trying to save. I just don't know what's gonna happen. But my life is really confusing.

 

Initially finding out about things like this is really a shock to the system, and it can be what therapists refer to as post traumatic stress disorder, with sleeplessness, obsessing over details in your head constantly, elevated stress levels, and other things that I can't think of right now that are not terribly healthful.

 

I wish you the best of luck. I hope things work out well for you.

[russrags]

Hey Felix,

 

Sorry to hear about the troubles you're having.

I've had a similar situation that I've thought about posting (but haven't) or even thought of posting under another name (but haven't). From similar threads in this forum, I think most participants are pretty morale ... and I tend to fall into a category leaning a little more towards your wife's experiences.

 

Personally... I'd throw out just about ALL of the advice so far except for Lee Fliers and maybe John's, Gabriel's & Ken's... definitely all the Delilah's !@#$%^&

 

People in today's society are too eager to throw out the old and get on with the new. Maybe a reflection of why the divorce rate is so high???

No matter where I stand today, my feeling is that people bond and get closer to each other, if they can survive ALL the up's and downs life has to offer.

 

Get in to the counseling. My wife and I have been doing this for the past year and I think we're both amazed at what's being uncovered. There are good counselors and bad ones, we've had both.

 

Our 1st was female who was ok (although I sense she had issues of her own) she was just interim for insurance reasons and referred us to counselor #2 a guy who we saw ($$$) twice a month for 7 or 8 months until I couldn't stand it, as I KNOW this guy is NUTS and stopped investing my money in him.

We just weren't getting anything out of it and he was constantly watching the clock.

 

Fortunately we found out about a counseling program through a church (that we don't even belong to) and we've been seeing counceller #3 this guy once a month (who is WONDERFUL). This program is FREE and he spends about 2hr minimum with us at a time. He's in need of a Studio to develop a radio show idea he has, and I've offered my services hr for hr to help him, although he hasn't actually taken me up on this yet.

 

I wanted to do a little on my own as well and talked to him specifically why and he referred us to counselor #4 who is a woman who specializes in this. I told her I wanted to do this by myself, but she asked me to bring my wife the 1st time. We met last night for the 1st time. We liked it so much, my wife will be coming the next time, and then I may do a few sessions by myself.

 

The Music Business is hard on relationships. We can write and sing Love Songs all day, but when it comes down to it, most full time Music people have a difficult time in relationships !@#$%^

 

I'll be happy to dive in deeper on PMs if you like. Good luck and hang in there.

 

Russ

http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-russragsdale

[felix.]

Thanks again for all the advice. A few points and clarifications:

 

I won't pretend for a minute that I can cover our 13-year marriage, all of our personal issues, and any other pertinent information in this forum. Ultimately, I recognize that this is between me and my wife, and we're the ones who are going to have to work through it.

 

She didn't go on a kayaking trip with "Mr. Kayak." From what she told me, she up with him and went kayaking in the ocean for a short time one day.

 

Not that it makes a huge difference. The part about this that bugs me (along with some things that have happened in the past) is that she and I seem too caught up in our established roles - and as a result, we have trouble doing something different/out of the ordinary/adventurous/fun together. As much as we'd like to enjoy that side of each other, somehow it's hard to get there. The fact that she does things like this with her "Mr. Kayak," her girlfriend, or anyone else concerns me and makes me jealous.

 

As for me tracking down the guy and doing anything to him, I'm more a "take the high road" kind of guy, and the root of the problem lies in my marriage. I would rather address my relationship, and handle things more directly with my wife.

 

I have been around her when he has been around. Sparks aren't flying at all. This has happened several times - company parties, at her office, etc. Never an indication of anything. I've also heard them on the phone on business calls. She doesn't get a lilt in her voice, her eyes don't suddenly begin sparkling. But then, I'm not sure that means much at all.

 

A private investigator? Interesting. Doesn't address the relationship, but could give a clear indication of whether she's telling the truth (which could be a possibility) or whether she's only told me the tip of the iceberg (which is also a possiblity).

 

The fact that she didn't check with me before planning her get-together with Mr. Kayak alarms me the most. At the same time, though, I wonder if she was lying, why she would have brought it up in a phone conversation with me the same day.

 

I think counseling is definitely in our future, just to get things sorted out. No guarantees what the outcome will be. I bet at this point she thinks that there is no problem (after all, it was just a platonic get together), so I'll have to do a good job of communicating where I'm at with everything right now and the seriousness of what has taken place.

 

I don't really believe in staying together just for the kids. I believe what is best for her and me is probably best for everyone, for better or for worse.

 

Thanks again, for the posts and the PM's. I've felt worse about this today than I have in a long time, but it's time to do the work, however unpleasant, and see if any good can come out of this.

[felix.]

(back to page one for a long response that this appends)

 

Oh, and two more thing. In keeping with her corporate office's dessire coming to the office 1 week every six weeks (dictated by her new boss, not Mr. Kayak), she needs to schedule a week in Nov and a week in Dec.

 

Their annual holiday party is in December. She has asked me every day since Monday whether I can come. She really wants me to be there (I didn't make it last year).

[Chuck Surack]

Originally posted by felix.:

(back to page one for a long response that this appends)

 

Oh, and two more thing. In keeping with her corporate office's dessire coming to the office 1 week every six weeks (dictated by her new boss, not Mr. Kayak), she needs to schedule a week in Nov and a week in Dec.

 

Their annual holiday party is in December. She has asked me every day since Monday whether I can come. She really wants me to be there (I didn't make it last year).

Felix, wow brother..good luck with it all.

 

Here's another option... maybe she should skip the holiday party this year!..or even better, maybe she should quit the job and get one closer to home. No job should ever be more valuable than a marriage.

 

Chuck

[Jeebus]

As far as I'm concerned, marriage implies a bond of trust. In order to work things out, you'll need to regain your faith in her and be able to trust her completely. This can take a long time, and it won't happen unless she really wants it to, and is willing to earn your trust again.

 

There shouldn't be any secrets between the two of you... everything should be open and anything qualifies as a topic of conversation. It's going to take time to reach this point, provided you both want to be there. Maybe you don't, maybe she doesn't, I don't know. As you said, there's way too much history in your marriage that no one here knows anything about, certainly more than could fit in a few posts.

 

So ultimately, you're the judge of whether or not it is worth the effort to try and work things out, or if it's better to take your kids and move on. Whatever you decide, support will be here for you.

 

good luck felix,

Jeebus

[Lee Flier]

Felix,

 

FWIW I think you do a great job of articulating your feelings and a good counselor shouldn't have ANY trouble understanding where you're coming from. Also like a couple of others have said, don't be afraid to shop around for a good counselor. If you don't feel comfortable with the first one you try, find somebody else and don't be put off the whole experience because of a bad apple or two.

 

It also does sound like your wife cares about the marriage very much, and in fact you both seem to be bothered by the same thing and express it in different ways. That is, you're both bothered by the fact you haven't been doing fun, spontaneous things anymore. But you've been "acting that out" in different ways - her, by seeking spontaneous fun outside of the marriage, with other friends - and you by being jealous of what she's doing with them. I think in both cases those are normal and valid feelings, so long as you both acknowledge what the root of the problem is and address THAT. I'm sure that's what a good counselor will tell you. It sounds like the biggest thing in your favor is that you care about each other and that you both seem to agree what the thing is in your marriage that's unsatisfying - which means you oughta be able to fix it! If your wife agrees. A good counselor can help you bring some of these feelings to light and give you some specific things you can do to help restore some fun in your life! I don't blame either of you for missing that if it's gone by the wayside... that happens a lot and is pretty fixable, though.

 

Good luck, we're pulling for ya.

[videoeditor1]

Felix,

 

Sometimes the hardest part of doing something is ...getting started.

 

When my dad passed away, it seems as if I had a full shitload of stuff to do, and it seemed insurmountable. Once I got into the motion of "doing" stuff, I was privately amazed that I could function as cool and efficiently as I did...

 

Same shit with my taxes. Every year I file for an extension, and then another extension (now due Oct 15th, or else!!)

 

So there. I've covered death, and taxes . You can, and will handle whatever life dishes ya.

 

It is my wish that you find the strength to persevere when it gets tough, dark and seemingly endless.

 

 

NYC Drew

[Programgirl]

Felix, I second the advice Gabriel gave. I think it's a positive way to salvage what's worth saving without setting yourself up for failure.

 

One thing I feel compelled to mention - as a woman, I can understand getting a little crazy and acting inappropriately once (and mind you that doesn't include having an affair). What I cannot reconcile is that she continues to see him in a personal capacity even after what happened. That seems very suspect to me, and I'd be inclined to call her on it. Just a thought.

[coyote]

I respectfully disagree.

Originally posted by Chuck Surack:

Felix, wow brother..good luck with it all.

Here's another option... maybe she should skip the holiday party this year!..or even better, maybe she should quit the job and get one closer to home. No job should ever be more valuable than a marriage.

Chuck

It takes TWO to make a marriage work. If she asked that he attend the holiday party with her, he ought do so - at least in this particular instance. She's saying to him "Come into my world, be there WITH me and FOR me." Frankly, it's an invitation you decline at your own peril while taking her up on it could help build a bridge to a better future. Furthermore, while no single job ought get in the way of a marriage it SUCKS when a mate tells you your job doesn't suit them. The decision to quit, should it happen, should be hers.

 

JMO of course.

[TyPie]

Felix,

 

Sorry I'm late to this post.....

I'm probably not the best guy in the world to address these kinds of matters of the heart, as I have been 'hardened' a bit from being in this situation myself. Been there, and it SUCKS.

 

You have been exceptionally upright, honest, sincere, understanding, and perhaps a little TOO sensitive to the other half, and I applaud you for it. I admire your guts for posting all of your most personal stuff, and I was TRULY upset at some of the treatment you got! Be sensitive, understanding, and fair, but DO NOT be a DOORMAT for ANYBODY!

 

I am of the 'if it looks like a duck, walks, quacks, and in this case, SMELLS like a duck, then it probably IS a duck' school of thought on this.

 

There is a time to listen, understand, comfort, acquiesce, comprimise, exercise patience, etc. Here, I would most definitely confront the wife's boss, and preferably in person. Personally, I would want the suckass to KNOW that I KNOW, and that, even tho I am sensitive, forgiving, understanding, etc., that you're nobody's fool, and you will only allow this kind of thing to go on for so long. It is important to let HIM know that YOU know! It will also let your wife know some things as well. It WILL make them both squirm a bit (and if you're like me, you can truly ENJOY when this happens! Sit back for a bit and OBSERVE carfully. You will know exactly where your marriage stands after a very short amount of time using this method. Your wife will really have to make the difficult decisions, (do I stay with / pursue Mr. Bon Vivant, or save my marriage?) AND SO WILL THE BON VIVANT BOSS! (Oh Jeeez, her HUSBAND knows! I hope he doesn't own any GUNS! Do I continue with this, or is it all worth it?). (Oh, how I truly HATE this type of person---I'm so familiar with this type in fact that I could PICTURE the asswipe!)

 

Guys like this can get SUED (by YOU!) for things like this, and you will WIN.

 

You will need to be prepared, however, that your marriage will come to an end when you throw down the gauntlet like this. In the long run, I feel it's always better to KNOW where one stands. Considering the seeming lack of common respect on your wife's part, it may be time. It may also instill a bit of deserved respect on both their parts.

 

I truly hope this works out for you in the best way possible, because it sounds like you truly deserve the best!

[felix.]

We're going to talk to someone about this. We have an appointment next week.

 

Even if nothing really happened during this last trip (just a quick platonic kayak outing), then we at least need to set some ground rules for future trips, get the past indescretions behind us (as I thought they were), and work on what's missing in our marriage.

 

We'll see where it takes us. Thought I'd give a quick update for all of you who provided input.

[Lee Flier]

Good deal, felix. I WAS wondering how you were doing. Hopefully it makes you feel a little better just knowing that you're both being proactive about things instead of just more of the same. Best of luck to you both.

[Super 8]

Wow...maybe it's that I've been bitten hard in the ass myself, but I have some pretty bad vibes about this. Felix, I think she has told you some things, but I am quite concerned that she hasn't told you everything. She may have told you what she has, as a way of dealing with her guilt, but hasn't told you the full story because she knows how much damage it would do.

 

The bit about there not being any "chemistry" between her and him is absolute bullshit....I think you can figure that out. Obviously there is chemistry there.

 

I think it's GREAT that you are going to get some counseling over this. I think it's necessary. I am curious about what your wife thinks about the counseling...

 

Best of luck to you. I really hope you get this resolved.

[dohhhhh6]

Felix, I truly hope things turn out good and all is well.

 

Good luck!

 

LadY

[mikegrijak]

Keep us in the loop Felix if you feel comfortable with that, OK? We care about ya Bro'!

[Salyphus]

Hate to say this but I would bet money that she has been having an affair with him for a long time.

[deanmass]

I am in no position to give relationship advice, as my own life is a total train wreck right now, but, I can offer this;

 

1) My thought are with you, cause no matter what, hard decisions need to be made and difficult actions taken.

 

2) Start socking away some cash and at least consult a lawyer to see what you options are.

 

3) Take care of yourself and children first.

[deanmass]

deanmass the THREADKILLER strikes again!!!

 

MUHUHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!

[Dan South]

Felix,

 

That's a gut-wrenching story, and I would be pretty pissed if I were in your shoes.

 

That said, I'm not qualified to give you any assistance in this touchy matter. You need professional help. Period.

 

Many long marriages have a period where one or the other partner feels the need to stretch the boundaries a bit. How far they can stretch them and how much this affects the relationship varies, but it's never a comfortable situation, and the harm that's done can never be fully reversed.

 

Making out with that guy was wrong. Spending time with him when she knows that it will upset you is wrong. I think that she feels a little too comfortable, that you'll never ditch her. I can't give YOU advice, but if it were ME, I might start cultivating some "friendships" of my own. The first purpose would be for my own sanity. I need human interaction beyond what a roaming SO can provide. The second purpose would be to let her know how it feels to be on the suspicious end. The third purpose would be to cultivate some potential soft landing opportunities in case she left me or in case she made a mistake and I decided to fire her. I might get involved in some activity or part-time job where I would meet other women. But that's only me. I'm not sure that it's the right thing to do or the BEST thing to do. But waiting around the house while the SO goes kayaking with Joe Lustheart would kill me, and I would need a serious diversion, or I would need to flat out leave her.

 

But again, that's just me. A professional counselor probably has better advice.

 

Good luck.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Felix,

 

Making out with that guy was wrong.

She made out with the guy? Did I miss that?

 

Is this the kayak guy or do I have the wrong thread?

[Mr Darling]

I'm sure you got loads of good tips here, but if you need more advice, my wife is running a forum for just that :

Ask The Darling

 

usually used by her fans, but I see no real reason why we shouldn't allow everyone access to it.

 

Good luck man ,

 

Danny

[felix.]

Update: I went to her holiday party last Friday. We've been doing the couseling thing and working on stuff, so it was kind of weird revisiting some of these feelings. (because the kayak-guy issue hasn't been the main topic of conversation in counseling)

 

Let me back up. I really do believe she's told me everything - and I really do believe that this guy (the Kayak guy) isn't the real problem, which she ultimately has to address within herself - and we ultimately have to address within our relationship.

 

Still, that didn't change the difficulty level for me when (while I was sitting right besider her) he asked her to dance (along with a bunch of other women that night) and I had to try to be polite (since almost everyone else at her office doesn't know that anything ever happened). Fortunately, she turned him down and clung to me.

 

Maybe because I've made it pretty clear that I'm no pushover, and the continuation of our marriage is no done deal. I'll work on things with her, but if we can't make some changes (that will result in us both being happier, more fulfilled people in a happier, more fulfilling relationship), then I may not be willing to remain in an auto-pilot marriage (however pleasant) for the rest of my life.

 

Couseling is tough. Especially when you start getting to the real stuff, the stuff that it hurts to look at. Amazing how stuff you know about yourself or your relationship deep down inside can feel really crappy when it's brought out in the open. Dealing with it sucks. Afterwards, you wonder why you never dealt with it sooner. It's like taking really bad tasting medicine - that really does make you better. (Or I guess a really intense session is more like surgery without an anesthesia )

 

Only right now there's some stubborn medicine-taking-refusal going on, and I wonder how many sessions we're going to spend banging our head against the same wall before we finally get a breakthrough - or if there will ever be a breakthrough at all.

 

But we're both still trying, and I'm sure that's the most important thing right now. I love her a bunch, and the best possible outcome would be for us to come out of this stronger and healthier than ever before. Maybe next year could be the year we turn the corner.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by felix.:

(while I was sitting right besider her) he asked her to dance

What fucking nerve...

What blatent disrespect for you.

Maybe it was some 'macho' show for himself, to demonstrate how he could walk over to a the woman of his choice, and take her from her husband.

 

Let's hope something large and heavy rolls over him.

 

Fortunately, she turned him down and clung to me.

Good for her! And you too!

Good for BOTH of you!

 

Sounds like you two are going to counseling, and doing the work that is necessary. Keep at it!

 

I wish you both the very best.

[deanmass]

I am glad she clung to you, but the asking to dance was out of line. Those bathroom floors in the party places get very slippery as the evening wears on. That would have gotten to me. I actually probably woul have said, um ' Would YOU like to dance?' and given my very best alpha dog stare. Some guys need a bash in the mouth to 'get it'. Too bad it usually is not do-able.

[Lee Flier]

Good to hear an update from you Felix... seems like you always post something right when I start thinking "I wonder how Felix is doing?"

 

I'm sure the counselling is really tough but it's good to hear that you're doing it. I'll continue to hope for a good outcome for the both of you.

 

And yeah that guy had a LOT of nerve asking your wife to dance... GEEZ. Good on your wife for doing the right thing, but some people!

[felix.]

Things I could have said (had I prepared in advance),

 

"No, I'm keeping this one all to myself"

or (jokingly) "You trying to put the moves on my wife?"

 

Sigh... but I try not to get too gripped over that, lest it take my focus off the real task at hand.

[miroslav]

Originally posted by felix.:

I just want to do the right thing.

Dude...this is your problem...

...you got it all twisted around!

 

She's the one that needs to figure out what the "right thing" is...not you.

 

I know it sounds kinda' easy for someone to say this "from a distance"...

...but if she can't figure out...and start doing...

...the right thing...

 

...(with all due respect)...dump the bitch!